The Munster Leinster Rivalry - Healthy?

funky penguin

Now I know in my heart of hearts this has a great chance of being the quickest thread lock ever, but I was reading the times and this article in particular.

In it, GT discusses the rivalry between the two sides, but pays particular attention to what he calls the 'poisonous' element entering it. He never comes out and says it straight off, but he is implying the soccer 'yob' mentality.

GERRY THORNLEY

ON RUGBY: The popularity of the Leinster v Munster fixture has led to excessive antipathy between the two sets of supporters

IT WAS in December 2001, in the inaugural Celtic League final, that the Leinster-Munster rivalry reached a new level. Unexpectedly, more than 30,000 turned up at Lansdowne Road on the second last Saturday before Christmas and saw an epic contest in which a 14-man Leinster achieved an unlikely 24-20 comeback win to claim the trophy. In the context of the professional era, perhaps that was the day the fixture came of age.

However, for much of the ensuing years, it was as if Eddie O’Sullivan and the IRFU were doing their damndest to play down the fixture’s intensity. Leinster-Munster games were invariably pencilled in for weekends when many of the Irish front-liners would be unavailable. All the while, though, the rivalry bubbled away under the surface, and exploded into life again in the 2005-06 campaign with a couple of compelling league meetings and the first of those Heineken Cup semi-finals.

There’s hardly been a dull encounter since and last season the pair of them laid on another European semi-final for the benefit of a world-record attendance for a non-Test match. It is the fixture which showcases Irish rugby talent more than any other and has perhaps defined a golden era more than any other.

They have been good for each other as well as Irish rugby, each demanding more of the other. Leinster saw things in Munster they aspired to emulate and vice versa. Between them, they have won three of the last four Heineken Cups and backboned last season’s first Grand Slam in 61 years.

An inevitable by-product of their success and rivalry has been to broaden each province’s fan base, which has to be welcomed. It would be nice if more of them were involved with their local clubs, but they pay their ticket prices and are as entitled to support their provinces as much as anyone else.

Partly as a result, each province has moved into bigger, swankier new stadia and it would be no surprise if next season’s Magners League meetings fill both the 27,000-capacity Thomond Park and the new 50,000 all-seater Aviva Stadium.

Such is the fixture’s popularity, they’ve even helped to ensure the pubs will be open on this coming Good Friday; a sacrilegious occurrence which wouldn’t even have been countenanced 10 years ago.

Alas, with this popularity has come excessive antipathy between the two sets of supporters or, it would seem, between some of the newer supporters to each province.

When Leinster thrashed Munster 30-0 at the RDS in early October, the atmosphere was electric and befitted such a superb home performance. It didn’t need the sound of Ronan O’Gara’s name being booed when it was read out before the kick-off, the same Irish player who had landed the Slam-winning drop-goal six months beforehand.

Nor did it need the bile directed at John Hayes when he was red carded for an utterly out-of-character stamping, nor those chants borrowed from Old Trafford, Anfield and elsewhere of “Same Old Munster, Always Cheating”, or “Boring, Boring Munster”.

Conceivably, these chants and the baiting

of Munster players should be taken in the context of a one-off night, when the recently-crowned European champions were in rampant form. But several readers have written to this column telling of their eye-wateringly unpleasant nights at this fixture in the past few years. One Munster supporter at the RDS that night recalled a constant flow of foul-mouthed and often racist invective at both Munster players and his small group of red-scarved friends.

After Shane Horgan’s intercept try, to complete the rout, they were patted on the heads and shoulders while being taunted Munster would win “F*** all” this year. “They also sang to the air of the Pompey chimes ‘No score Munster, Munster no score’.” “When I took issue with them for the gross intrusion off my personal space I was abused by at least six people, who shouted that I was ‘just a sore effing loser’. One of my friends intervened only to be invited outside for a fight by one of the aggressive yobs,” he recalled.

In the absence of any stewards or police, they felt compelled to remain and put up with abuse until the bitter end, when they were again taunted. There are many, like them, who will simply not attend another Munster-Leinster fixture again.

The danger is that with each passing instalment of Leinster versus Munster, the rivalry will become more poisonous. A degree of banter/rivalry between supporters is healthy, and amongst the majority of supporters, it remains a healthy rivalry, with each rooting for the other in Europe.

Nor is this a desire to apportion blame or to take the high moral ground. Indeed, we in the media happily helped to stoke up the rivalry, and sometimes excessively so. Maybe all this is a by-product of professional sport and increased commercialism. Old traditional fans and values versus new ones. Obeying the customary silence for kickers (a pity, albeit understandable, that it was forgotten for Dan Parks’ winning kick at Croke Park, all the more so as silence might have utterly flummoxed him) gives one hope. But if we ever get to the stage of those freeze frames, a la football, of an away player walking off to the backdrop of a baying mob mouthing obscenities, then the horse has surely bolted.

All in all, Irish rugby has embraced the professional age impressively. With all change come challenges, as one emailer wrote in, and with those can come potentially good and bad developments. Rival fans mixing freely, before during and after games, without hostility is surely worth keeping, no? As Declan Kidney is wont to say, our unity is our strength, and Ireland is such a small country, with such a small playing base, that the worst excesses of this rivalry cannot do any good.

Whatever its causes (and one ventures it may in part be a Dublin v country thing that has been partly transferred from other sports) taunting individual players from either side is totally out of character with what Irish rugby is about. And, along with the respective branches, the true fans must help to stamp this out. Otherwise it’s going to get more and more out of hand, and ultimately lead to segregation, and if segregation is to happen, then this fixture is now the odds-on favourite to provoke it.

Now that is definitely not what Irish rugby is about.

Its an interesting read (GT always is IMO when he's not spouting French).

Now...*holds breath*


......any thoughts? PLEASE lets keep it civil and talk about outside elements entering rugby instead of the usual old ****e.

danthefan

Nonsense article which will only serve to put coals on the fire, considering it's an issue he seems so worried about.

Also completely one sided. Of course Leinster fans are the bad guys :rolleyes:

Theta

I think it becomes unhealthy when people are recieving abuse like the stuff that was recieved by one Munster fan in that article.

Im sure it is healthy between the players as it can only improve there game.

To me a healthy rivalry is one thats left at the statium gates when you leave after the game and then everyone can discuss and enjoy the game together......but that dreaming.

Crash

Its all swings and roundabouts - 2006 I got some dog awful abuse from a bunch of drunken lads in Munster jerseys (note I don't call them fans) and then to compare, in 2009 we got plenty of humble congratulations. If this element is creeping in, as Thornley cracks on about, its 4 years in the making, not a sudden bloody new thing.

buck65

Actually the only good part of the 2009 semi final for me was the crack I had with the Leinster guy beside me. He kept looking at me as to say "sorry for your troubles" and I was telling him not to feel too bad about it!
That day ranks as the worst game I was at. I had an infection in my leg from a cut and I was delirious to boot for about half an hour. It was warm and I was seated in the dead ball area, the blue/red/blue seating arangements made me ill. I'm lucky I didn't cut my ear off.

Hippo

Dreadful piece from Thornley, really disappointing. Of course there are abusive idiots on both sides (I've seen and heard plenty of both), but that's not quite the implication of the piece. As Dan says above, it merely adds coal to the fire. I've emailed Thornley to express my unhappiness with this rubbish.

Kev37

I'll just copy and paste what I said in the other thread on the matter

I emailed the editor of the Irish times last season to make the very point Thornley has made. At the semi final of the Heineken Cup last season I witnessed a group of teenage Munster fans assault some young Leinster lads who couldn't of been more than 13 years old in Hill 16. Thankfully some older heads intervened (I was too far away myself) but it was a scary preceedent. My nephew was out in Australia at the time and was wearing his Leinster jersey proudly the next day and on Bondi beach some Munster supporters threatened him. You get these idiots in all walks of life but its definitely something that is creeping into rugby. Though I must say Thornley in this article has done nothing to help the problem by only singling out Leinster fans. This was a real chance to address the problem but instead Thornley let his bias get in the way. I'll be emailing the editor to let her know my disgust.


There definitely seems to be a sort of culture in the Irish media of painting Leinster as the elitist villians and Munster as some kind of working class, salt of the earth heroes. Like it or not Leinster rugby will always be associated with the upper class of Dublin (which simply isn't true these days with fans coming from all counties and classes). Given how much anger there is towards the bankers and developers these days and given how rugby is usually the sport of choice for those in that class, Leinster are an easy target.

Maybe I'm way off though? Just an opinion.

raven136

Thornley is an Arsenal fan,he isnt used to chanting in a stadium so hence he was upset.

Sangre

What next? Rivalry between schools in the SCT?!

Tim Robbins

I think GT is a bit pro Munster. Where's he from? Where did he play?

He rarely says anything bad about them. Munster fans have engaged in their fair share of taunting. The players boo'd and sledged Contemponi several times. And what about the thousands of them that were trying to rip off Leinster fans for the tickets for the final last year? Not to mention the thousands that went over wearing their Munster jerseys...

Mr. GT a very one eyed piece...

d'Oracle

I dunno, I think the biggest issue here is the Cartoon Terror of the "DREADED SOCCER YOB MENTALITY!!!!"

Its never going to happen.
Slagging is part of the fun and its not even the same ballpark as the Soccer element. Not even the same sport, pardon the pun.

Tim Robbins

The one I really hate is the stereotype of Munster being the working man's team.

PBC- Private school
CBC- Private school
Glenstal - Private school
Rockwell - Private school
Crescent - Used to be private, still jesuit.
Ard Scoil Rís, Munchins, Crescent community college - Not private. So that makes it 50 - 50. Where the national average for private schools is 10%.

So in both Munster and Leinster Rugby has a disportionate amount of people from the upper socio - economic background.

andrewdcs

d'Oracle wrote: »

I dunno, I think the biggest issue here is the Cartoon Terror of the "DREADED SOCCER YOB MENTALITY!!!!"

Its never going to happen.
Slagging is part of the fun and its not even the same ballpark as the Soccer element. Not even the same sport, pardon the pun.

yeah, as I've said in the match thread (off topic, I confess) banter is great, abuse not, there's a thin line, always cured by humor. Thomond few years back was hilarious and I'll never foget the joy of the HC semi last year. They were so upset. bliss. Humour is a big part of it, though no one like my "Chinese Goosberries" line about Douggie and Isa. ;(

buck65

NAMA bail out Leinster shock....
Link http://www.answerbag.com/article/World's+daftest+names+announced/75db8594-0eb0-eb85-8adb-d39ec9d84504/prank-phone-call

andrewdcs

http://advocatodiabolo.wordpress.com/2009/10/01/leinster-v-munster-one-hell-of-a-rivalry/ Apart from the weird nationalistic bit at the end, this isn't a bad piece. NB: Found this searching for articles on Leinster Munster and have never seen the blog before so no idea what other stuffs on it and have no affiliation. Get the impression Gerry read it tho..

Kev37

I was just reading Leinster fans website and some good points and experiences that Thornley never mentioned

"You're not. Typical Munster-philic bilge from Thornley. No mention of the abuse that Felipe Contepomi regularly took from Munster fans – and players – in Thomond and at Lansdowne Road? No mention of the campaign directed at Johnny Sexton following the Thomond and Croke Park games last year? Sorry! I forgot that that was merely earthy good natured banter!

Heaven forbid anybody should boo John Hayes after he stamped on the head of his then-twenty one year old opposite number who had been roasting him in the scrum. No, we should have risen as one and respectfully clapped Munster's legend off the park, while adding as an aside that it'll be good for Healy, and that it's simply part of the game – oh, would that have been deemed condescending? "

On Canada v Ireland fixture at Thomond
"Well, queueing outside we were slagged off for wearing green - apparently it was how you identified the Leinster supporters. When the stadium announcer went through the team some Ireland players who were Leinster players were jeered and silence met others while massive cheers went up for Munster players - which is to be expected of course. With the "banter" against non-Munster players during play I felt like we were in an opposition stadium at times rather than a home one. I got shoved by a nicely dressed young man coming to his seat late who then wanted to start a fight when my other half objected. However, in the scheme things it was not worth writing to tell a journalist about it. It just made me a bit hesitant to go to Thomond again."

"I remember some asshole Munster fans in front of us at the HEC final last year roaring and swearing and cheering on Leicester and cursing Leinster players every ten seconds. To the extend that a furious Leicester fan Father (beside his kids) turned around at them and asked them to stop cheering for his team (he was laughed at, and later had beer thrown at him). Do I think they represent all Munster fans? NO. Most are fine, but both provinces has a few problem fans. The implication here is that Leinster has a problem and not Munster."




I am really considering emailing these experiences to Thornley to see if he would at least have the decency to publish an article next week where he apologises for singling out Leinster fans.

treacy52

What?? Are people really having a go at Thornley for this?

He clearly has a point that there are negative features creeping into supporters behaviour towards each other. It's not meant to be for or against either side.

I can't see how anyone could possibly argue against the fact that a significant amount of BOTH sets of supporters have not covered themselves in glory with their behaviour in recent meetings.

His point is that ultimately we all come under the same banner eventually, so if the bad feeling between provinces continues to grow it may well affect our national team which nobody would like to see.

I can't see how he (or anyone else) can be slated for expressing valid concerns.

Kev37

andrewdcs wrote: »

http://advocatodiabolo.wordpress.com/2009/10/01/leinster-v-munster-one-hell-of-a-rivalry/ Apart from the weird nationalistic bit at the end, this isn't a bad piece. NB: Found this searching for articles on Leinster Munster and have never seen the blog before so no idea what other stuffs on it and have no affiliation. Get the impression Gerry read it tho..

Brilliantly written, article here

Hi Gerry,
Thanks for writing this article in today’s IT…along with many others, it needed to be said before it gets out of hand somewhat.
I’ve been attending Leinster-Munster matches for many years, dating back to the inter-pros, and it’s fair to say that the ‘banter’ between rival supporters has become more heated in the last few years.
On this point, though, I think Leinster fans have taken an unfair, and certainly unbalanced, amount of flak since the match in October, particularly considering the vitriol many of us faced in Hill 16 last May from Munster fans determined to rub our noses in it. Unlike many of your readers, I didn’t feel the need to mouth off at the time, but now that a group of which I am a member (Leinster fans, it appears we’ve all been tarred with the same brush) is being talked down I feel it’s only fair to give my (our) version of events an airing.
The Hill was the only mixed zone of the stadium last May, Sky TV having made the decision to arrange fans so the other stands would have a ‘checkered’ pattern. From before kick off until long after the match our small pocket of Leinster fans (we were massively outnumbered there on the day) received solid abuse from red-clad fans of all ages and genders. You noted a couple of points in your article that have interesting counterpoints from this fixture:

• personal abuse for Ronan O’Gara and John Hayes. It’s interesting Ronan O’Gara should be denied light-hearted abuse (and trust me, that’s what it was) just because he kicked a winning drop-goal for Ireland, particularly in light of the fact that for many years, Felipe Contepomi has been the target of Munster fans’ personal attacks, and as he left the pitch on a stretcher, never to play for Leinster again, fans around me were screaming ‘bottler’ and an awful lot worse at him.
• …The same fans, it might be added, that shouted the same word as he lined up an early penalty (that he subsequently missed), akin to many Irish fans jeering Dan Parks last week. From reading the Examiner afterwards, one is meant to believe that had the match taken place in Thomond Park he would have met a wall of silence. So, only Leinster/Ulster/Connacht fans booed Dan Parks. For the record, I stayed stony silent, but such nonsense being written by respected journalists does not help calm the already-intense rivalry.
• …The same fans that were slapping me on the back at the final whistle, saying they’d be shouting for Cardiff or Leicester in the final, that Leinster are bottlers who would disgrace Irish rugby in the final.
• …Reverting to the John Hayes abuse, it is rarely mentioned of the incident that he stamped on the face of a Leinster player, though it is often mentioned that his ‘indiscretion’ is out of character.
• As of the chants, the ’same old Munster, always cheating’ chant is borrowed from Gloucester Rugby Club fans in the Shed at Kingsholm, who have sung this at matches against Leicester Tigers for many seasons. As a Manchester City fan of many years and many trips to Manchester (I know, I know), I have never actually heard this at any football match. Agreed, it could be considered baiting, but I think we’re all beyond the stage where Munster fans join in with Molly Malone just for a bit of craic. Further, Leinster fans have never sung ‘easy, easy, easy,…’. Those in attendance at any match where our Fijian winger does something brilliant will hear ‘Isa, Isa, Isa’, but we’re still called louts, yobs, and a lot worse by a press that seems determined to talk us down. Finally, you mention the Leinster fans’ ‘constant flow of foul-mouthed and often racist invective’ last October. Firstly, we’re all the same race, so that’s nonsense, and secondly, if any chanting in this rivalry has become close to being racist it is the ‘don’t cry for me’ crap that was shouted at the above-mentioned Felipe Contepomi.

I agree with you wholly on the point that it would be desirable if fans could calm down and enjoy the rivalry, even to the extent of supporting each other’s teams in other tournaments. I agree that Leinster fans have behaved imperfectly. And I agree that the proliferation and amelioration of this behaviour will lead to segregation and other nasty associations of association football. But I do not agree with reporting that a) paints all Leinster fans with the same brush, and b) largely ignores reciprocal behaviour of Munster fans at the same fixtures.
To this end, I invite anyone to stand in the terrace with me next Friday, bedecked as I will be in blue, and smile through the abuse I will inevitably receive from the self proclaimed best fans in the world.
Thanks, though, the article needed to be written, and I just felt I had to add to my views,

Hippo

treacy52 wrote: »

What?? Are people really having a go at Thornley for this?

He clearly has a point that there are negative features creeping into supporters behaviour towards each other. It's not meant to be for or against either side.

I can't see how anyone could possibly argue against the fact that a significant amount of BOTH sets of supporters have not covered themselves in glory with their behaviour in recent meetings.

His point is that ultimately we all come under the same banner eventually, so if the bad feeling between provinces continues to grow it may well affect our national team which nobody would like to see.

I can't see how he (or anyone else) can be slated for expressing valid concerns.

Not 'for or against either side'? Read it again. I share his concerns, but he has highlighted the problem on only one side.

PhatPiggins

The game is getting more and more popular in Ireland. The bigger crowds are always going to included increased numbers of arseholes.

Were crowds more respectful when I first started watching rugby in the 90's? Absolutely but they were a hell of a lot smaller.

Personally I loathe losing to leinster. I'd gladly not win the ML if it ment doing the league double over them but I'll cheer my lungs out for them when they're playing anyone else.

wixfjord

Have to say I take great exception to Thornleys singling out of Leinster fans. It seems that the media in general tend to paint Munster as a salt of the earth heros club of liginds whom Michael Collins would be proud of, while Leinster are the big city moneybags ladyboy cousins with fans to match.
The venim in this rivalry has been growing steadily, and from the Leinster side, partly because of this media bias (im lookin at you David Kelly, George Hook, Neil Francis et al).
There are idiots of fans on both sides, which can be seen from numerous accounts of Black Sunday, last years semi, numerous Leinster sojourns to Thomond when Contepomi was roundly jeered and even the Heineken Cup final last year when I was in front of two Munster fans shouting for Leicester and was told to go back to the pale (Im from Wexford lads which is outside the pale )
Again this is from both sides, so why does Thornley need to single out one??

andrewdcs

Kev37 wrote: »

Brilliantly written, article here

Hi Gerry,
Thanks for writing this article in today’s IT…along with many others, it needed to be said before it gets out of hand somewhat.
.
.
.
To this end, I invite anyone to stand in the terrace with me next Friday, bedecked as I will be in blue, and smile through the abuse I will inevitably receive from the self proclaimed best fans in the world.
Thanks, though, the article needed to be written, and I just felt I had to add to my views,

I understand you're viewpoint, but think you've gone OTT.
Ok, so his best/worst anecdote was about a "Leinster fan", but as I've said, that's who he knows and where the body of his readers are. I thought the article was reasonably balanced, and reiterate banter yes, abuse no some people just can't tell the difference.

Being called "Nigel from Donnybrook" is kinda funny, being sworn at as an 'effin ladyboy' is not. Its all about wit vs spite.

Perfumed Ponce! (withnail)

wixfjord

andrewdcs wrote: »

I understand you're viewpoint, but think you've gone OTT.
Ok, so his best/worst anecdote was about a "Leinster fan", but as I've said, that's who he knows and where the body of his readers are. I thought the article was reasonably balanced, and reiterate banter yes, abuse no some people just can't tell the difference.

Being called "Nigel from Donnybrook" is kinda funny, being sworn at as an 'effin ladyboy' is not. Its all about wit vs spite.

Perfumed Ponce! (withnail)

Ive no problem with the bitterness being addressed, but reasonably balanced? Tell me where the balance is?!

It didn’t need the sound of Ronan O’Gara’s name being booed when it was read out before the kick-off, the same Irish player who had landed the Slam-winning drop-goal six months beforehand.

Nor did it need the bile directed at John Hayes when he was red carded for an utterly out-of-character stamping, nor those chants borrowed from Old Trafford, Anfield and elsewhere of “Same Old Munster, Always Cheating”, or “Boring, Boring Munster”.

Conceivably, these chants and the baiting

of Munster players should be taken in the context of a one-off night, when the recently-crowned European champions were in rampant form. But several readers have written to this column telling of their eye-wateringly unpleasant nights at this fixture in the past few years. One Munster supporter at the RDS that night recalled a constant flow of foul-mouthed and often racist invective at both Munster players and his small group of red-scarved friends.

After Shane Horgan’s intercept try, to complete the rout, they were patted on the heads and shoulders while being taunted Munster would win “F*** all” this year. “They also sang to the air of the Pompey chimes ‘No score Munster, Munster no score’.” “When I took issue with them for the gross intrusion off my personal space I was abused by at least six people, who shouted that I was ‘just a sore effing loser’. One of my friends intervened only to be invited outside for a fight by one of the aggressive yobs,” he recalled.

In the absence of any stewards or police, they felt compelled to remain and put up with abuse until the bitter end, when they were again taunted. There are many, like them, who will simply not attend another Munster-Leinster fixture again.

Sangre

Gerry Thornley wrote:

Nor did it need the bile directed at John Hayes when he was red carded for an utterly out-of-character stamping,

Last time I checked that sorted of behaviour should be booed and derided.

thebaz

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I think GT is a bit pro Munster. Where's he from? Where did he play?

..

dreadfull article - he seams to absolve Hayes for dancing on healy's head - usually I like GT - but have to question his pedigree now - has he played at any level ?? - certainly never heard of him ? - as far as as I know he is leinster (Dublin) or should that be Lunster -

awfull article -

Kev37

On munsterfans there seems to be a lot of mention of the inciddent when Stringer got injured and a minority of Leinster fans cheered intially, yet unsuprisingly, no mention of when Contepomi got injured in the semi finals where a chorus of bottler could be heard throughout the stadium from cheering Munster fans. This happens on both sides and all this article has done is vindify the notion in a lot of Munster supporters heads that this is only a Leinster problem.

I'd actually be slightly worried travelling to Thomond Park this Friday after this article because I have no doubt it will seriously intensify relations between the supporters.

thomond2006

I was at Munster vs Leinster at TP last year and there was no problems.

I expect no different this year.

d'Oracle

andrewdcs wrote: »

Humour is a big part of it, though no one like my "Chinese Goosberries" line about Douggie and Isa. ;(

What?
Did someone think you were being racist or something?

Kev37

thomond2006 wrote: »

I was at Munster vs Leinster at TP last year and there was no problems.

I expect no different this year.

Im sure there were no problems but (kinda O/T just making sure my age isnt catching up ) I thought you posted recently how disappointed you were that O'Driscoll might not be able to play this Friday because it was going to be the first time you saw him play in the flesh????

thomond2006

Kev37 wrote: »

Im sure there were no problems but (kinda O/T just making sure my age isnt catching up ) I thought you posted recently how disappointed you were that O'Driscoll might not be able to play this Friday because it was going to be the first time you saw him play in the flesh????

BOD didn't play in this fixture last year.

Horgan played 12 and D'Arcy played 13.

Kev37

thomond2006 wrote: »

BOD didn't play in this fixture last year.

Horgan played 12 and D'Arcy played 13.

I guess my age is catching up

treacy52

Many are still missing the point entirely here.

Thornley is from Leinster as far as I'm aware, therefore it makes it much more difficult to criticise Munster fans when making his point without being openly lambasted as a "typical biased Leinster man" only seeing it one eyed.

His point is applicable for both sides. Using the excuse of "well they're worse than us!" doesn't really stand up now does it.

Kev37

Thornley is a self proclaimed Munster man though!

andrewdcs

d'Oracle wrote: »

What?
Did someone think you were being racist or something?

hah, no, It was an ironic jibe about these chinese goosberries (kiwis) coming over, stealing our jobs and wimmen. faux Sun reader style.


I just wasn't funny, delivery was off, must try harder.

d'Oracle

Sangre wrote: »

Last time I checked that sorted of behaviour should be booed and derided.

I missed this the first time around.
Dead right.

Gerry Thornley is a feckin Goon.

d'Oracle

andrewdcs wrote: »

hah, no, It was an ironic jibe about these chinese goosberries (kiwis) coming over, stealing our jobs and wimmen. faux Sun reader style.


I just wasn't funny, delivery was off, must try harder.

It helps if you don't Explain it.;)

Tim Robbins

treacy52 wrote: »

Many are still missing the point entirely here.

Thornley is from Leinster as far as I'm aware, therefore it makes it much more difficult to criticise Munster fans when making his point without being openly lambasted as a "typical biased Leinster man" only seeing it one eyed.

His point is applicable for both sides. Using the excuse of "well they're worse than us!" doesn't really stand up now does it.

I thought he was from Galway.

Hippo

treacy52 wrote: »

Many are still missing the point entirely here.

Thornley is from Leinster as far as I'm aware, therefore it makes it much more difficult to criticise Munster fans when making his point without being openly lambasted as a "typical biased Leinster man" only seeing it one eyed.

His point is applicable for both sides. Using the excuse of "well they're worse than us!" doesn't really stand up now does it.

Are you deliberately misreading the piece? His point is of course applicable for both sides, he just doesn't present it that way. No one here is saying 'they're worse than us'.

wixfjord

treacy52 wrote: »

Many are still missing the point entirely here.

Thornley is from Leinster as far as I'm aware, therefore it makes it much more difficult to criticise Munster fans when making his point without being openly lambasted as a "typical biased Leinster man" only seeing it one eyed.

His point is applicable for both sides. Using the excuse of "well they're worse than us!" doesn't really stand up now does it.

Kev37 wrote: »

On munsterfans there seems to be a lot of mention of the inciddent when Stringer got injured and a minority of Leinster fans cheered intially, yet unsuprisingly, no mention of when Contepomi got injured in the semi finals where a chorus of bottler could be heard throughout the stadium from cheering Munster fans. This happens on both sides and all this article has done is vindify the notion in a lot of Munster supporters heads that this is only a Leinster problem.

I'd actually be slightly worried travelling to Thomond Park this Friday after this article because I have no doubt it will seriously intensify relations between the supporters.

I think your missing the point there treacy. Nobody, not I anyway, is saying that one is worse than the other, or that Leinster fans are saints when they are clearly not, but the article only mentions how bad Leinster fans are. This shouldnt turn into a competition of telling stories on who has the most venemous fans, the fact is Thornley only mentioned Leinster's as being bitter, and mentioned isolated, and fabricated if many are to be believed, incidents.

wixfjord

d'Oracle wrote: »

It helps if you don't Explain it.;)

Ah so weve found the racist fan Thornley is mentioning :pac:
What the hell is that comment in the article about by the way, racism??!

andrewdcs

GTs article ends:

Whatever its causes (and one ventures it may in part be a Dublin v country thing that has been partly transferred from other sports) taunting individual players from either side is totally out of character with what Irish rugby is about. And, along with the respective branches, the true fans must help to stamp this out. Otherwise it’s going to get more and more out of hand, and ultimately lead to segregation, and if segregation is to happen, then this fixture is now the odds-on favourite to provoke it.

I think this is reasonable and balanced and gets to the heart of it. Yes, he could have mentioned the abuse leveled from some sections at Sexton, Contemponi etc. and Hayes would probably agree he deserved a boo for losing the head (on Healys) but the real bile stems from something else. Its about interaction between fans at the grounds. When was the last time a Leinster Ulster, Munster Ulster whoever crowd had people getting leery?
Ever had anyone report on it even in isolated incidents?

I'd be horrified if I felt nervous about going to a rugby ground, no matter where no matter when. Its not on and up to all (here I go, Leinster elitism!) "real fans" to keep it straight. Members of clubs. Players.

Personally, I blame it all on red vs blue. Those colours provoke irrational mutual hatred in double blind testing. Why the French put white between em.

chirodoody

treacy52 wrote: »

Many are still missing the point entirely here.

Thornley is from Leinster as far as I'm aware, therefore it makes it much more difficult to criticise Munster fans when making his point without being openly lambasted as a "typical biased Leinster man" only seeing it one eyed.

His point is applicable for both sides. Using the excuse of "well they're worse than us!" doesn't really stand up now does it.

Do you know where GT is from?

Thornley is a journalist reporting on rivalry between two teams yet chooses to single out a particularly nasty incident that sickens any true supporter from either side.

Whether he is from Dublin or Galway does not change the one sided nature of the article, knowing that it is a minority of both goups of supporters that would ever engage in this kind of behavior.

Unfortunately the ink in his pen is the poison in this case...

smurphy29

Yeah, I've a lot of time for Gerry normally, and generally find him quite balanced but this is a poor article. By singling out incidents from a very small minority of Leinster supporters, he really is making it look like a very one sided issue indeed. Disappointing, and an opportunity lost. I felt at this year's Six Nations that the rivalry had escalated to the point where it dominates international games when we should all be cheering for the same team, and this was a chance to highlight it in a balanced and fair way. But by painting Leinster fans as the bad guys, this will only make matters worse - it only seems to exacerbate the stereotype of Leinster fans as clueless over-privileged oiks, and Munster fans as genuine fans and salt of the earth. I sent Gerry an e-mail.

Amazotheamazing

I agree with Thornley, though he should have included the similar stuff Munster supporters have done.

I still think the blackest day was when a group of Leinster supporters booed and jeered Declan Kidney and called him "Judas" days after his mother died. There's lines that shouldn't be crossed, imo.

Honestly think it's a pity people are calling the article onesided rather then asking if there's any truth in it, a similiar article could be written about Munster, both provinces should get their house in order.

Edit, afaik, Thornley is a former DLSP player (not sure what level) so he's presumably a dub?

andrewdcs

I mailed him the thread, god knows, he could log on, unless he lurks....



<glances sidelong around boards>

andrewdcs

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Honestly think it's a pity people are calling the article onesided rather then asking if there's any truth in it, a similiar article could be written about Munster, both provinces should get their house in order.

this

molloyjh

I'm quite disappointed with that article. A balanced view would have shown 2 examples of poor behaviour, one on each side. Instead it is all Leinster.

A bit of banter and slagging is an integral part of the game from a supporters point of view. So long as it is all in good humour then it's fine. I have been known to chant the "Same old Munster, always cheating" line, aswell as the "Can we play you, can we play you, can we play you every week" one in October. But when the Munster lads were going off at half time (we were in the Season Ticketholder terrace beside the changing rooms) and 2 or 3 Leinster fans started jeering POC and co as they went past they were promptly told to shut up by the rest of us. We wouldn't jeer them when they're in an Irish jersey, so we're not going to do it when they're in a Munster one.

In fact I will cheer for Munster in every game unless it is in Leinsters best interests for them to lose. I roared them on in the HEC final 2 years ago the same as most rugby fans in Ireland. For me to see Munster fans in Leicster jerseys in Ediburgh last year was really sickening, and quite sad I thought. That some people feel such bitterness that they are willing to go out of their way to travel for and cheer on someone they normally wouldn't is a bit pathetic in fairness.

My sisters went down to Thomand last year for the first time. They were really excited about it, looking forward to the atmosphere and the craic. They were met where they were seated by abuse and hostility. Now they are no shrinking violets and are as able for the slagging as anyone but they are refusing to ever go near Thomand again because of the way the Munster fellas around them behaved.

Now I've been to a few Leinster-Munster games and have seen a few eejits on both sides. But for the most part the supporters of both teams have been good natured. There's always been a bit of banter and competition. And that's part of the fun. The fact that there are a few idiots out there who lack any form of perspective should be recognised, but the fact that most are decent proper fans of the game should be too.

John_Rambo

thomond2006 wrote: »

I was at Munster vs Leinster at TP last year and there was no problems.

I expect no different this year.

Wear a Leinster jersey.

(the article is poisonous in my opinion)

Amazotheamazing

molloyjh wrote: »

A bit of banter and slagging is an integral part of the game from a supporters point of view.

Speak for yourself, I'm there to watch the rugby. Fwiw, I still clap when the opposition scores, I stillclap if the opposition put a nice move together, I'm usually too busy actually watching the game to bother with infantile chants, but I suspect I'm the minority now.

molloyjh

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Speak for yourself, I'm there to watch the rugby. Fwiw, I still clap when the opposition scores, I stillclap if the opposition put a nice move together, I'm usually too busy actually watching the game to bother with infantile chants, but I suspect I'm the minority now.

The banter and slagging does not mean I don't do that myself. Sportsmanship extends beyond the pitch. If the opposition do well I applaud, I keep my mouth shut for the penalties and conversions, I applaud an opposition player who is taken off injured or whatever. I don't boo or abuse. And I make sure to object strongly to it when anyone else does.

When Connacht fans behind me on Saturday were chanting some Leinster chant about whining I took it in the spirit it was meant. A bit of friendly teasing. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. FFS it's a daily part of Irish life. We all do it with friends and family, take the piss a bit. As long as there's no malice in it then it's grand. And you can enjoy a game of rugby and do that too. They aren't mutually exclusive.

Amazotheamazing

molloyjh wrote: »

The banter and slagging does not mean I don't do that myself. Sportsmanship extends beyond the pitch. If the opposition do well I applaud, I keep my mouth shut for the penalties and conversions, I applaud an opposition player who is taken off injured or whatever. I don't boo or abuse. And I make sure to object strongly to it when anyone else does.

When Connacht fans behind me on Saturday were chanting some Leinster chant about whining I took it in the spirit it was meant. A bit of friendly teasing. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. FFS it's a daily part of Irish life. We all do it with friends and family, take the piss a bit. As long as there's no malice in it then it's grand.

Who gets to decide what's malicious?

I support my team, I don't bother putting the opposition down, I've never felt the need to.