€26000 for graduate position

Hurley6969

Do you think this is an poor/average/good sum for an IT graduate? Just want to see what people think.

ucd.1985

Id say pretty good all things considered.

I have a business degree and a masters and started somewhere between 24-25.

Raekwon

Hurley6969 wrote: »

Do you think this is an poor/average/good sum for an IT graduate? Just want to see what people think.

€26k is very good for an IT graduate in the current climate especially considering that most employers are chancing their arm right, left and centre these days with salaries and conditions etc.

Sleepy

I started on 4k less than that as a graduate with a post-grad diploma back in 2003, so yes, very good.

AARRRGH

Hurley6969 wrote: »

Do you think this is an poor/average/good sum for an IT graduate? Just want to see what people think.

That is a brilliant salary for a graduate.

jimoc

So now either one of two things has happened:
1. A graduate has accepted a very nice offer and is deliriously happy.
2. A job offer has just been reduced by about 5K before being sent out to a graduate

woolymammoth

€26000 is very good for a grad job. If you don't want it i do! :pac:

[edit] unless you're the employer. In that case it's bad. Give the poor student a break will ya!

Stark

Would have been below market average about 2-3 years ago but with everything's that happened in the interim, it's a very good salary for today's market conditions.

Hurley6969

Will have an hons. degree with pretty much a 2.1, lol no job offer but I have been applying to graduate programms and have no idea of what to be expecting salary wise as I've been in college during the recession so don't know what the market is like wage wise.

AARRRGH

Stark wrote: »

Would have been below market average about 2-3 years ago but with everything's that happened in the interim, it's a very good salary for today's market conditions.

Which was insanity!

Hurley6969 wrote: »

Will have an hons. degree with pretty much a 2.1, lol no job offer but I have been applying to graduate programms and have no idea of what to be expecting salary wise as I've been in college during the recession so don't know what the market is like wage wise.

You will be very lucky to get a job, so take whatever salary you are offered. Experience, at least initially anyway, is much more valuable than salary.

MysticalRain

I just started in a position that required four years of experience and isn't even offering as much is that.

Stark

Really? What sort of IT position? You should still be able to get a software developer job that pays around 35k for 4 years experience.

Gally05

im a graduate also well have been for 2 years so guess thats gone , first reall job i started in was a salary of 22 k and a company car all paid for worth about 6k maybe ?! so 26k start would be seriously good for a graduate but i think u doing really well if u get an offer like that

MysticalRain

Stark wrote: »

Really? What sort of IT position? You should still be able to get a software developer job that pays around 35k for 4 years experience.

It's mostly IT administration. There isn't much programming involved, aside from a bit of VBA, general scripting and web design.

Hurley6969

Cool so general consensus is that 26k is a good amount, thought so too myself but just wanted to see what people thought.

Paul_D

AARRRGH wrote: »

Which was insanity!

I don't think so. While 26K is a good starting salary for a graduate in TODAYS market, it is certainly less than someone should be getting after spending 5 years studying. After all it's only 31% on top of a minimum wage that doesn't require any skills or experience.

ferike1

Considering accountants start on 22.5k, yes it is good.

AARRRGH

Paul_D wrote: »

I don't think so. While 26K is a good starting salary for a graduate in TODAYS market, it is certainly less than someone should be getting after spending 5 years studying. After all it's only 31% on top of a minimum wage that doesn't require any skills or experience.

Studying does not entitle you to anything.

ferike1

No studying doesn't 'entitle' you for anything but you are sacrificing your time and putting off financial gain in the present in order to gain a larger return in the future. My masters cost me about 14k and I have worked hard over the last few years, so yes while I'm not entitled to anything I don't think its unreasonable to expect a good starting salary and pay-rises in the future.
Something isn't right when a low skilled worker is making roughly the same as someone who studied for 5 years, I agree.

In general graduate salaries in Ireland are a joke. You look at the starting salaries for business jobs in the UK and the States and it is quite annoying, especially since the cost of living is higher here too.

Atomic Pineapple

AARRRGH wrote: »

You will be very lucky to get a job, so take whatever salary you are offered. Experience, at least initially anyway, is much more valuable than salary.

I agree.

I graduated last May and didn't get a job offer until December, Salary is €23k a year in a small Irish company with no benefits living in expensive South Dublin.

But I jumped at the chance to get my foot in the door and get some experience

AARRRGH

ferike1 wrote: »

No studying doesn't 'entitle' you for anything but you are sacrificing your time and putting off financial gain in the present in order to gain a larger return in the future. My masters cost me about 14k and I have worked hard over the last few years, so yes while I'm not entitled to anything I don't think its unreasonable to expect a good starting salary and pay-rises in the future.

From an employers perspective, there is little difference between most graduates with a certificate and most graduates with a masters -- both need to be trained up.

Getting an education is a personal matter and you should not expect someone else to reward you for it. (If you do get something extra for it you should consider it an unexpected bonus.)

I have a masters btw.

ferike1

Yes, I agree with you that if you are an employer you will have to train in whoever you get but I'd sooner hire someone is willing to show that they will go the extra mile in order to get the job done. I'm not saying that a masters student will necessarily be better than someone straight out of college but it is a thought to consider that they may be hired with greater ease.

Its one of the reasons I am looking for work outside of Ireland, you get rewarded for the work you put in to a greater amount, despite the current climate.

Doesn't matter in the end. Irish graduates either accept they are getting the short end of the stick or leave.

AARRRRGH

Hurley6969 wrote: »

Do you think this is an poor/average/good sum for an IT graduate? Just want to see what people think.

Very poor for an IT graduate. We pay IT graduates €30k if we can get away with it but generally between €30 - €35k.
Remember you're talking about one of the sectors least effected by the downturn.

If you want to just get into support or take helpdesk calls then 26k would be about right, but recent grads should be aiming higher than that. Its right now that you will map out what you will be working in for years to come. be it helpdesk, networking, development or whatever. Id say start as you mean to go on. Dont settle for helpdesk so early.

Look around at what your fellow grads are getting and what they are working at. Also look at London to keep your options open. Then decide what you should settle for. 2.1 or 1.1 doesnt really matter either. As long as your not a total waster. You'll grow into the job. Just dont grow into any of the crap jobs, or you'll get stuck.

Choose the right career path now and watch your salary jump a lot in 2 - 3 years. Choose any old path and watch yourself get stuck for years.

AARRRGH

^--- note that person is not me.

infamous

Ferike, I dont know where you get your notions that salarys are much better in the UK and States, wages in UK especially are much lower than here, in my current role I get 60k per year my equivalent in the UK with a few extra years experience gets 35kstg even using historical fx rates there is still a big gap there. With the uk minimum pay so low companies dont have to pay there skilled staff way over the odds as is the case here. Minimum wage needs to be reduced here, which inturn will bring down the cost of living here. Companies cant reduce prices profitably when they are paying unskilled floor staff/till personnell €9p.h.

AARRRRGH

ferike1 wrote: »

Yes, I agree with you that if you are an employer you will have to train in whoever you get but I'd sooner hire someone is willing to show that they will go the extra mile in order to get the job done. I'm not saying that a masters student will necessarily be better than someone straight out of college but it is a thought to consider that they may be hired with greater ease.

Its one of the reasons I am looking for work outside of Ireland, you get rewarded for the work you put in to a greater amount, despite the current climate.

Doesn't matter in the end. Irish graduates either accept they are getting the short end of the stick or leave.

In my experience people with degrees in IT tend to be much better than the ones with Certs. I dont know why. Maybe its the 4 years in college or the fact that they have an all round rounding in their field.
At the interview stag though I would certainly give people with certs an interview (I know many who wont even interview them) as there are exceptions, but generally I would hire people with university degrees, unless the person with the cert blew my socks off at the interview.

So many people with certs just dont cut it.

Atomic Pineapple

AARRRRGH wrote: »

Very poor for a graduate. We pay IT graduates €30k if we can get away with it but generally between €30 - €35k.
Remember you're talking about one of the sectors least effected by the downturn.

If you want to just get into support or take helpdesk calls then 26k would be about right, but recent grads should be aiming higher than that. Its right now that you will map out what you will be working in for years to come. be it helpdesk, networking, development or whatever. Id say start as you mean to go on. Dont settle for helpdesk so early.

Look around at what your fellow grads are getting and what they are working at. Also look at London to keep your options open. Then decide what you should settle for. 2.1 or 1.1 doesnt really matter either. As long as your not a total waster. You'll grow into the job. Just dont grow into any of the crap jobs, or you'll get stuck.

I'd like to know where you work! I was looking for a job from May last year to December and didn't come across a graduate position advertising pay over €27k

AARRRGH wrote: »

^--- note that person is not me.

Thanks for posting that i was a bit confused at first!

AARRRRGH

draffodx wrote: »

I'd like to know where you work! I was looking for a job from May last year to December and didn't come across a graduate position advertising pay over €27k



Thanks for posting that i was a bit confused at first!

We'll be recruiting both in Dublin and in London for some projects coming up in about 2 months, so maybe we'll meet
There are only a couple of recruitment agencies we use. We never recruit direct.

When assembling a team for a new project I like to have about 20% grads on it.
They do all the work that the more expensive guys get pissed off doing, but they are learning from it, and the more expensive guys skills are utilized more effectively. The experienced guys like to mentor too. Im also for giving grads a chance to get the foot in. And there are usually some gems in among the grads, who we want to get our hands on too.
Hopefully some of them will stay or come back in a few years too.
So its win all round.

Hurley6969

draffodx wrote: »

I'd like to know where you work! I was looking for a job from May last year to December and didn't come across a graduate position advertising pay over €27k

Same here thats why I stated the 26k mark as a guide cause there aren't many places out there offering much more. I think 30-35k is stated above is a very exceptional circumstance cause I have been looking but haven't seen those figures anywhere and Im appling to fairly big and well known companies.

AARRRGH

AARRRRGH wrote: »

We pay IT graduates €30k if we can get away with it but generally between €30 - €35k.

Exceptions should not be used as a guide...

The salary you are offering is not in line with industry standards and frankly it suggests your HR person is clueless.

madmoe

My mate just got a PHD after spending 12 years doing it!! Started off on €29K and they do not feel they are getting half enough.


Just my to cents worth.....

AARRRRGH

AARRRGH wrote: »

Exceptions should not be used as a guide...

The salary you are offering is not in line with industry standards and frankly it suggests your HR person is clueless.

As I said, graduates are in a great position to shape their careers for the future. If they start out in the right direction, they will continue well.

If they want to settle for lower paying/skilled jobs, then obviously they will be paid less.

http://www.irishjobs.ie/ShowResults.aspx?Recruiter=Both&Category=3&Location=102&Keywords=graduate&x=0&y=0

I think you'll find that you have to pay what the market requires to get the people you want.
Apart from the WPP scheme which is happening now where the salary will be zero. But I doubt we'll be getting any IT grads for zero salary tbh.

Im speaking as an employee who is tasked with putting teams together. I have no interest in talking up or down the salary of people i hire. It effects me in no way what they get paid.

Do you have a vested interest in keeping graduate salaries down by any chance?

NothingMan

I graduated in 2006 and started a helpdesk job at 21k and I know of noone starting a helpdesk job at 26K as said above. I had a degree but it was electronics based with basic computer maintenence and networking as a small part of it.

After 2 years I was doing internal IT and some field work and was on 26k. 2 years later again and i'm doing more on-site work and internal IT and i'm still on 26k after 2 years of pay freezes. I know some contractors get a lot more than me for the same job but I have (kind of) job security, pension, paid leave etc... so 26K for a full time position straight out of college is pretty good, and if you show you're good at what you do you (and there wasn't this damn recession) you'll be up in the 30's in 2 or 3 years.

AARRRRGH

madmoe wrote: »

My mate just got a PHD after spending 12 years doing it!! Started off on €29K and they do not feel they are getting half enough.


Just my to cents worth.....

Its about the job and the demand for your skills. Not your qualifications. Think of qualifications as the foot into the interview.

What job does he do?
He doesnt work as a PHD does he?

AARRRRGH

NothingMan wrote: »

I graduated in 2006 and started a helpdesk job at 21k and I know of noone starting a helpdesk job at 26K as said above. I had a degree but it was electronics based with basic computer maintenence and networking as a small part of it.

After 2 years I was doing internal IT and some field work and was on 26k. 2 years later again and i'm doing more on-site work and internal IT and i'm still on 26k after 2 years of pay freezes. I know some contractors get a lot more than me for the same job but I have (kind of) job security, pension, paid leave etc... so 26K for a full time position straight out of college is pretty good, and if you show you're good at what you do you (and there wasn't this damn recession) you'll be up in the 30's in 2 or 3 years.

Generally your salary increases with a move to a new company. There is a premium they have to pay to make you want to leave your old job. Generally this is better than what you get by staying.

I was once offered an increase from £30k - £33k by my company that id been in for 3 years at the time. I wasnt happy with it so I looked around. I got offered a job for £45k. When i went back and told my employer I wanted to stay but they needed to offer more money they offered me £35k. I took the new job. This is the way it has worked since. You just get a better increase by moving company.

Like insuring your car, it costs you nothing to look around at other jobs before accepting the quote you are given.

AARRRGH

AARRRRGH wrote: »

Do you have a vested interest in keeping graduate salaries down by any chance?

No, I'm just being realistic.

I have worked in the IT industry for 14 years, I hire staff, and I have also been running a few recruitment websites on the side for a number of years.

The figures you are quoting (30k - 35k) are exceptions and don't really make any sense. A graduate is not worth 30k - 35k. We know this because people with a few years experience are willing to work for this wage. It is financially retarded to offer a graduate with no experience the same wage as a graduate with a number of years experience.

EDIT: I should point out I used to be a financial controller so I understand the financial aspects of overpaying your staff.

ferike1

But then why are they worth it in the US/UK? And people that are willing to work for 30-35k after a few years seem to have low expectations.

AARRRGH

ferike1 wrote: »

But then why are they worth it in the US/UK?

Every economy is different.

For example, Switzerland pays better than Ireland, but Ireland pays better than Latvia. There isn't a universal rule for wages.

ferike1 wrote: »

And people that are willing to work for 30-35k after a few years seem to have low expectations.

I disagree. I think the problem is there are many people who grew up knowing nothing other than the boom and bubble we've had for the past 10 years, so they have unrealistic expectations.

AARRRRGH

AARRRGH wrote: »

No, I'm just being realistic.

I have worked in the IT industry for 14 years, I hire staff, and I have also been running a few recruitment websites on the side for a number of years.

The figures you are quoting (30k - 35k) are exceptions and don't really make any sense. A graduate is not worth 30k - 35k. We know this because people with a few years experience are willing to work for this wage. It is financially retarded to offer a graduate with no experience the same wage as a graduate with a number of years experience.

EDIT: I should point out I used to be a financial controller so I understand the financial aspects of overpaying your staff.

And I am in IT for 16 years. And recruit people at least every 3 months in my current company.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

My advice for any graduate looking now, and those graduating in the summer should be looking already, is to decide what you want to end up doing in the future and look at all your options.
Do you want to be doing helpdesk, support, networking, development etc. Check how much the position you choose pays. There are numerous websites where you will get this info. Or see what your peers are getting offered and for what jobs.
Then base your job hunt on that. Settle for second best now and thats where you'll be for a long time.

Also for anyone who feels they are not getting enough of a pay rise over the years in the same company. Dont be afraid to look around and see what you would be looking at if you were to move. You are only looking.

One website from Ireland
www.irishjobs.ie

One website from the UK
www.jobserve.co.uk

Look at your options and dont take the first offer. You are also entitled to time to think about an offer.

AARRRGH

AARRRRGH wrote: »

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Sure, and obviously I have no problem with your company paying whatever wage they want, but 30 - 35k does not make financial sense, and you are sort of giving false hope to graduates. As many others have said, they are recent graduates and cannot get anything close to what you claim is a graduate wage.

Theta

My graduate starting salary was more in line with AARRRRGH's. But that was 3 years ago so I would have expected things to slide downward.

AARRRGH

Theta wrote: »

My graduate starting salary was more in line with AARRRRGH's. But that was 3 years ago so I would have expected things to slide downward.

Yeah, we were in the middle of a bubble three years ago so wages/property prices/etc. were totally insane.

Normality is now returning...

Theta

AARRRGH wrote: »

Normality is now returning...

Competitive rather than normality I would say.

AARRRGH

Theta wrote: »

Competitive rather than normality I would say.

Yeah, it's hard to define "normal". Competitive is probably a better word.

AARRRRGH

AARRRGH wrote: »

Sure, and obviously I have no problem with your company paying whatever wage they want, but 30 - 35k does not make financial sense, and you are sort of giving false hope to graduates. As many others have said, they are recent graduates and cannot get anything close to what you claim is a graduate wage.

But most recent graduates who have jobs now are getting what I stated. I give talks in a couple of the Universities and some schools about IT career choices. I like to help people up but mostly for selfish reasons (to get potential employees, so I get paid too), but I then have my ear to the ground or whats happening with grads too.

Its the ones who havent got jobs yet who are finding it hard to get a good starting salary. If they are looking since last year, then they need to talk to someone about their CVs, Interview technique etc. If they are looking only since this year, then sit back and look at all your options. Plenty of time left.

Ask the ones who have got jobs.
Its also worth finding out what the job they are doing is.
If its support/helpdesk then id say 26k is about right. Aim higher than helpdesk though.

By the way, there is no recession in IT. People just have to look around at their friends in IT (bar helpdesk/support. Those positions are being scaled back and are dead easy to fill) and see how many are without a job at the moment. Ive often got people asking me if I know anyone who would be interested in this or that jobs. When I ask around, noone is without a job.

AARRRGH

AARRRRGH wrote: »

But most recent graduates who have jobs now are getting what I stated.

That is simply not true.

Maybe a few years ago during the insanity of the celtic tiger some graduates were getting 30 - 35k, but nowadays the average graduate gets nothing close to that wage.

AARRRRGH wrote: »

By the way, there is no recession in IT.

The IT industry has not been hit as hard as other industries, but it is completely untrue to say there is no recession in it. Many IT companies have reduced wages or laid off staff. (I know this because I have had to deal with a number of these companies.)

You are trying to apply your exceptional circumstances to every graduate. You are not being realistic.

AARRRRGH

AARRRGH wrote: »

That is simply not true.

Well, it is true actually.

[QUOTE=AARRRGH;65180179
The IT industry has not been hit as hard as other industries, but it is completely untrue to say there is no recession in it. Many IT companies have reduced wages or laid off staff. (I know this because I have had to deal with a number of these companies.) [/QUOTE]

Any companies that laid off staff are in trouble because of how the company is run. IT staff laid off are finding new jobs almost right away.
You wont find too many non grad IT workers without a job. And you wont find too many who accepted a pay cut either. Only helpdesk IT workers, but thats not really IT either.

And the grads can apply to the IT companies providing numerous new jobs here too. Your Career officer will point you to which ones are here and are coming here.

AARRRGH wrote: »

You are trying to apply your exceptional circumstances to every graduate. You are not being realistic.

They are not exceptional circumstances. What im doing here most of all is telling grads looking for jobs, to make sure they do their research and not take the first offer that comes along, because they are scared there might not be another one. As I said earlier, look around at your friends and see what they are getting. Look at what last years grads are getting. To go by experience and think of their further careers instead of what they read here.

They are smart people. They can work it out for themselves what they have to settle for be it 26k, 30k or 35k. But assuming they can settle for 30k+, they are better off than taking the first offer of 26k out of fear? People here seem to be saying "Quick, settle for 26K". Now thats how not to start your
career.

When you are a grad it costs you nothing to look around and do the research. Do it and you might be pleasantly surprised.

AARRRGH

AARRRRGH wrote: »

Well, it is true actually.

No it isn't. I spider the various jobsites and collect statistics on the number of new vacancies by industry and the average wage per industry. I have hard data which proves you are talking nonsense.

It is obvious you are either:

a) using old data
b) applying your own exceptional circumstance to everyone

AARRRRGH wrote: »

Any companies that laid off staff are in trouble because of how the company is run.

Another fallacy. If your IT company offers services to a market which is in economic trouble, your income will be affected. This is economics 101.

AARRRRGH wrote: »

It costs you nothing to look around and do the research. Do it and you might be pleasantly surprised.

Honestly I think it is you who needs to take this advice.

Let's wait for the rush of IT graduates who'll tell us they just got offered 30 - 35k straight out of colege. They'll be here any minute now...!

Yawn.

AARRRRGH

AARRRGH wrote: »

No it isn't. I spider the various jobsites and collect statistics on the number of new vacancies by industry and the average wage per industry. I have hard data which proves you are talking nonsense.

It is obvious you are either:

a) using old data
b) applying your own exceptional circumstance to everyone




Another fallacy. If your IT company offers services to a market which is in economic trouble, your income will be affected. This is economics 101.




Honestly I think it is you who needs to take this advice.

Let's wait for the rush of IT graduates who'll tell us they just got offered 30 - 35k straight out of colege. They'll be here any minute now...!

Yawn.

You're getting a bit touchy here now. You wouldnt by any chance be a vested interest? You really sound like you are against people getting the best deal for themselves. I noticed you were all for the WPP (read people working for nothing) in the WPP1/WPP2 thread too.

AARRRGH wrote: »

As both an employee and employer, I think this is a great scheme. Yes, I know it's easier to sit at home **** all day while on the dole, but having a regular routine and a bit of hope will stop you getting depressed, and experience counts for so much when looking for a job.

I would be a supporter of "work for the dole" anyway and would see this as a decent compromise.

Sure its no wonder you are all for people well capable of getting more to work for just 26K. You are a vested interest.

You seem to want people to take the first job they are offered, without seeing if they can do better.

Whats wrong with them looking around at all their options before they bite at the offers?

Is there something wrong with a grad looking around to make sure they make the best choices?

AARRRGH

AARRRRGH wrote: »

You're getting a bit touchy here now. You wouldnt by any chance be a vested interest? You really sound like you are against people getting the best deal for themselves. I noticed you were all for the WPP (read people working for nothing) in the WPP1/WPP2 thread too.

No, I just like to live in the real world.

The "celtic tiger" (which was a bubble, not a boom btw) is well and truly dead. Graduates no longer receive crazy salaries. That is reality.

AARRRRGH wrote: »

Sure its no wonder you are all for people well capable of getting more to work for just 26K. You are a vested interest.

You seem to want people to take the first job they are offered, without seeing if they can do better.

Whats wrong with them looking around at all their options before they bite at the offers?

Is there something wrong with a grad looking around to make sure they make the best choices?

Ah jesus, it's depressing you have copied my username because people will think your opinions are coming from me.

I am all on for people trying to get the best deal for themselves (in any way possible). I am simply pointing out that 30 - 35k is not a normal starting salary for a graduate.

As stated earlier, let's wait for the graduates to come along and say they recently started on 30 -35k. There should be loads of them if you aren't talking nonsense.

RentDayBlues

There are so many people out there who used to work in both the IT and non IT industry who would be happy with a salary of €26K - let alone someone out of college with no experience.

Unless its a graduate programme that you're going into most company's now place very little emphasis on education, experience is more important.

When I graduated from my IT Masters I started in a role offering €20K and I was very glad of it. That was in 2004 and I think the market is quite similar now. €26,000 is a great starting salary - and I'd love to see the graduate IT roles for more that are on offer? Anyone?