GBB tested as over, but isn't

Stercus Accidit

I had a KJW m9 taken to ballistics over a year ago, and it was tested and they said it was over.

I am assuming from the info I have gotten that they used co2 with an adapter to fill the green gas mag, this is a common gbb and is never over.

I have since been told that to appeal the ballistics results, I need the superintendants permission to receive the report, I asked this via a letter, citing the reference number for the case, a month ago and have not received a reply.

I was wondering what I should do, this gbb should be tested with green gas and be under 1 joule, I cant contact ballistics without this report thing and I am waiting for a reply from the superintendant.

Any advice? This has been a farce dragging out over a year.

Frank the Manc

Best thing you can do is be persistant, most of the times they are not bothered and will just ignore you till you go away.

Firts i would ask them to put it in writing the exact power output they tested it at, they cannot just simply tell you that it it over, end of story, they would have to give an exact readout etc.

I would draft a letter outlining the operation & use of the gun, in simplistic yet tecnical terms, how it could not be over when used with propane, it is only designed to operate at a certain level of psi, widlely available at irish retailers.

If they have used a co2 adapter to test that would be akin to putting a 22 in an aeg barrel, tapping it with a hammer, chronoing it and sayin " no thats a firearm, you cant be havin that."
it may work a couple of times but its not reliable nor how the gun was intended to operate.

Iv senn guns come back from testing well over the limit so it makes you wonder.

The main thing is no to give up and cause as much of a headache for them if needs be.

Follow up with the super, maybe call into him and see if you can make a better impression on him, than just "another young lad with a pellet gun."

ED E

Was it perhaps shipped with .12s? I know thats not normally the case but if it was and they used them it'd blow the readings well off.

Stercus Accidit

I think I will be writing the Super again, and requesting a meeting, best way to do this?

@Lethal, it was tested with .2's but from anecdotes I've heard, they slap co2 in anything they can.

ED E

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

I think I will be writing the Super again, and requesting a meeting, best way to do this?

@Lethal, it was tested with .2's but from anecdotes I've heard, they slap co2 in anything they can.

Would you get a meeting with a super?

I hope to **** TNT dont refer my new toy to customs, its designed for 134:eek:

Stercus Accidit

I know, but I'd say it would be the way to sort it out quickly, I have sent a letter already, I may send a registered one next.

ED E

31 Mar 2010 07:00:07 Dublin Held Customs, Awaiting Clearance Instructions From Receiver.

Frick.

Puding

Who did it ship with? That wording normaly means they need you to confirm you will be able to pay customs charges

ED E

Puding wrote: »

Who did it ship with? That wording normaly means they need you to confirm you will be able to pay customs charges

Yeah, just on the phone to them, wasnt stupid enough to use UPS or HK post, went with TNT, normally very good. Thing is they want €23 VAT on a €75 order(Inc shipping), should be 15 so I've sent the paperwork and asked they do their sums again.

Was hoping the small package would slip the net, shipping it express probably highlighted it though. Still, least its not with the Technical Bureau:)

Frank the Manc

If its TNT theyre usually very efficient, you should get a call that day to say there is x owed & its being sent out that day or the next and just to have the cash ready for the driver.

ED E

He got his sums right this time, VAT is 15.34, out tomorrow morning. Expect a post in the picture thread:)

hightower1

Mate you wouldnt believe the time i had getting x2 gbb pistols back off them but stick with it, its not illegal, simply because they tested i with co2 doesnt make it so. its not how is designed to operate and if thats the case sure a lot of things can be baned if you can modify them to make them illegal.....you can buy a legal car..... modify if and as such make it illegal (full window tint) ...... do they ban importing cars because they have the possibility to be changed into something illegal?!!!! bull they dont. They are giving you this excuse now as they simply dont like airsoft..... their words not mine. Well tough **** we all have to deal with things we dont like but guess what its your job cops.


lodge complaint with the ombudsman, write to the super and make it clear your taking it further and give the complaints ref number you get, advise if he wishes to meet with you he can.


Dont stand for it...... you've done nothing wrong.

Stercus Accidit

I have a letter in with the super now, I spoke to a garda who told me I would just have to wait it out to actually hear back from the super.

I sent the letter a month ago or more at this stage.

I might have to look at getting a solicitor involved or a complaint to the ombudsman.

kdouglas

From my time when I was the technical officer for the IAA, I spoke to the Garda technical Bureau directly about this shortly after you received the initial report that it had been chrono'd over.

Despite common belief amongst the airsoft community, the Gardai in the technical bureau (at least the Det.Sgt. I spoke to on several occassions anyway) actually do know what they're doing when it comes to airsoft.

All BB's used are generally .20g, however they are weighed (with a high precision scales) anyway just be to on the safe side. The gas they use is normal airsoft gas (e.g. green gas) and is bought through an airsoft wholesaler afair.

I asked them directly about using co2 gas and was told they only use normal airsoft gas (as above) and no special adapters or anything (which would be required to use co2)

There is no reason why your pistol should have been tested with co2 and when i asked the Det.Sgt about this he said it may have been a typo on the report.

I would definitely continue to chase it up with the local gardai, find out as much information as you can. Who was the Garda that confiscated the pistol, dates and times of it being sent for testing and request a full copy of the report (as you are already doing)

Do as much as you can in writing, but continue to follow up with phone calls. Your letter is in with the superintendent over a month? I'd be ringing at least once a week to check on it.

Send the letter (delivered by hand and record the date/time and name of person that you handed it to, ask them to sign a receipt too if possible, or send by registered post), ring a few days later and try to speak to the superintendent directly to ask if he received your letter. Keep a record *every* time you call. Keep a pen/paper beside you when you ring. Record date/time, name of person you spoke to and make a note of anything that you are told.

Everything you put in writing is evidence for if/when you need to take it any further.

SNAKEDOC

i have found from a few mates that most guns they have shipped in normally require downgrading when they arrive. the tolerance is normally 1.2 or 1.3 joules. a common solution is to blast a few hundred bb's through it to get the barrell used to the bb's and the gas to circulate. its the same with AEG'S you have to bed in the spring. when a weapon is brought to the shop in the Garda HQ they will only take a reading they won't be playing around throwing hundreds of bb's out of it. they have god knows how many to test as i think the amnesty for decommissioned and handed in weapons still go to the same place they will be back logged

Witcher

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

i have found from a few mates that most guns they have shipped in normally require downgrading when they arrive. the tolerance is normally 1.2 or 1.3 joules. a common solution is to blast a few hundred bb's through it

Guns are supposed to be below 1 joule before they arrive:rolleyes:.."blasting a few hundred bb's" through it won't bring it down..you'd be looking at thousands before you even see a slight change which is beside the point the gun is over so it's illegal to import.

NakedDex

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

i a common solution is to blast a few hundred bb's through it to get the barrell used to the bb's and the gas to circulate. its the same with AEG'S you have to bed in the spring.

I really hope that's a joke. That's not a solution by amy stretch of the imagination. A solution would be changing the spring before it enters the country. That's not even mentioning how incredible the concept of a barrell "getting used to" the bb's is, along with it's equally amazing sister-claim of getting the "gas to circulate".

Anyway, back on topic. The only thing I can suggest is persist. Hand delivering the letter, or sending by registered post is also a good course of action. As Keith said, log everything.

SNAKEDOC

i'm only repeating what i have heard. springs do actually wear down and degrade after repeated use. that is why you ease the spring after using an aeg. like wise with a gbb you empty the mags or leaks occur and degrade.i'm not an engineer and i;m pretty sure neither o you are either. the gun is obviously over so there goes the theory of guns should be under one joule before shipping. a company in china or wherever will not be held responsible for guns slightly over. and the gun tecys with the gardai know what hey are doing. they are not dopes. i think a ridiculous statement if you are looking for one is calling the gardai stupid by saying gbb firing over when it is't. the gun was tested in a controlled environment and under current legislation was found to be over the legal limit not by any fault of the purchaser but the company when shipping case closed. you probably won't get it back unless you fight the Superintendent of crime and security i think thats the department controlling these matters. and you won;t get it back until they down grade it which means they won't bother. you have better luck getting your money back from the people you bought it from for shipping an illegal gun

ED E

Stop making a fool of yourself. If its over its over, end of story.

Also, that engineer comment, you're wrong there too.

NakedDex

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

I'm only repeating what I have heard. Springs do actually wear down and degrade after repeated use. That is why you ease the spring after using an AEG. Likewise, with a GBB, you empty the mags or leaks occur and [they] degrade.

I'm not an engineer, and I'm pretty sure neither of you are either.

The gun is obviously over, so there goes the theory of guns should be under one joule before shipping. A company in China, or wherever, will not be held responsible for guns slightly over.
The gun techs with the Gardaí know what they are doing, they are not dopes. I think a ridiculous statement, if you are looking for one, is calling the Gardaí stupid by saying a GBB isn't firing over when it is. The gun was tested in a controlled environment and, under current legislation, was found to be over the legal limit. Not by any fault of the purchaser, but the company when [the] shipping case closed.

You probably won't get it back unless you fight the Superintendant of [the] Crime and Security [division] (I think that's the department controlling these matters), and you won't get it back until they downgrade it, which means they won't bother [doing so].
You [would] have better luck getting your money back from the people you bought it from, for shipping an illegal gun.

Spelling, punctuation and grammar corrections made by NakedDex, E&OE.

Firstly, I'd like to apologise for the corrections I've made to the quoted text seem pedantic or offensive, but I wasn't actually able to coherently read anything you wrote until I did so.

Springs don't "degrade" to the point where they make any significant impact on the energy they impart upon the fired bb. If they did, the number one upgrade part for AEG's would be new springs to replace the existing one. I've had a G36k with the same spring in it since it was bought four years ago, it has never once appreciably degraded in performance due to the spring. Nor has anything else I own (and that's quite a bit more than a sane person should).
As for the GBB "theory" about gas circulating, that is completely bogus. Emptying the gas from a GBB mag after use is simply to prolong the life of the seals within the mag itself, nothing more. Firing any number of rounds from a GBB isn't going to adjust it's power except by influence of cool-down effect inherent in the majority of gas systems.

Guns should be under 1J before shipping, that is a cold fact. The difference lies in the fact that it is up to the importer/buyer to confirm that the gun, regardless of it's principle of operation, is under 1J. It is not within the scope of the retailers responsibility to ensure the item is legal or illegal within a country, just to ship it as described.
If the description indicates "1.2J", then it cannot be legally brought into the country (regardless of the "blasting a few hundred rounds" after the fact). If the description, however, indicates it is "1J" and, upon testing, is revealed to be in excess of this, there may be an argument to be had.

Noone called the Gardaí "dopes", or made any inference to the term or it's synonyms.

You don't "fight" the Superintendant on matters like this. That is an absolute sure-fire way to never see your case being heard. What you do is politely and authoratively liase with them until the matter is solved, and then thank them for their help. Whether you like this as a course of action or not is a matter of personal choice, but it's the only way to deal with law enforcement as they are much more likely to respond to courtesy than threats, both in the present and the future.

No seller (that I've heard of. I'll stand to be corrected on this point) will refund you any amount of money because the item they shipped you was over the legal limit unless the item was not as described with regard to power levels. For a retailer to stock an item it must be of a muzzle energy which complies to the laws of that country. As the laws in virtually all other countries where airsoft is legal contain energy limits in considerably excess of ours, the end user must be acutely aware of the items power capabilities as they are the ones responsible.
Following on from this, the Gardaí are not a downgrade service. They do not have any intention of doing a downgrade on illegal airsoft devices entering the country, not because they "won't bother", but because it is not their responsibility. Their methods are clear; test item - If legal, send on. If illegal, inform, then destroy. That is where the service provided by some airsoft retailers for importing items on behalf of the end user comes into it's own, as the retailer is taking the risk of such happening, rather than the individual.



And, as Lethal_Bullet alluded to, you may not be an engineer, but I am.




OP: Sam, which station is the Superintendant that you're dealing with based at? Could it be that he's simply swamped with other things? The Super at another station might be able to better help (for example, back in bad old Trim).

JonnyTwoCombs

@ NakedDex..

Possibly the most informative post I've read on Boards in a very long time.

Stercus Accidit

It is in Donnybrook, do you mean get the authorisation for the report from another superintendant?

With regards a report, I never received one at all, I got a receipt, but was only told by the garda in person it was 'over', not in writing.

I will try to ring the super intendant directly if possible.

NakedDex

It could be the Super there is either swamped with other stuff or simply placing other interests higher than that of your pistol.
It could be worth taking up the same request with the Super in Trim? The workload there is considerably less and your name is more likely to be recognised from you having lived there (for completely non-nefarious reasons of course...). Sometimes it pays to go to the smaller places.

Stercus Accidit

Yeah, I was told he was busy, so the super in Trim can give authorisation for me to see the ballistics report?

NakedDex

Same as any other I'd assume? Wouldn't hurt to at least have a chat with him. Even if he can't authorise it directly, he might be able to suggest the best course of action.

Stercus Accidit

I might do that, I am in Dublin full time but I could make the journey I guess.

Stercus Accidit

Rang and recorded time, left a message with the superintendants clerk, will continue to do so every few days, good idea?

I wonder if a super in Trim could help, have you any experience dex with such a thing?

Stercus Accidit

Just spoke to the Garda station today, I have been refused permission to see the ballistics report which claims my stock KJW m9 was over the legal limit.

Anyone know what to do now?

Is there any way to contest the results that ballistics gave?

kdouglas

Sigh.... I don't know enough about it to give any opinion, but I'd be looking at the Freedom of Information Act about now...

Edit: I also just read back over a few posts and noted that you were never told in writing that it was over? Were you given anything in writing to say they would not be returning your property? I would definitely be pushing for this.

Keep calling, keep writing, and keep recording everything you or the gardai do or say.

Stercus Accidit

Update:

Got through to the technical bureau eventually, they are rooting out the original files for the test results.

In the case that it was over as they used co2 or that bloody 'red' gas, the only explanation for it being over, how do I say that that does not make it a firearm?

The guy I spoke to said that if it can be loaded with a gas that makes it over it is over in their eyes, in that case every gas gun in the country would be illegal.

Anyone got any advice, someone who has dealt with the bureau before?

Thanks.

NakedDex

Structural and tolerance limits? Technically you can fill and run a diesel engine car on Jet A-1 aviation fuel without any modification, but you'll destroy the engine after a short while.
Same applies to your pistol, or any gas pistol/rifle. While you can technically fill it with any pressurised gas in the world, it's designed to operate using Green gas/propane (Ch2 FCF3 Ch3) or HFC134a/tetrafluroethane (C2 H2 F4). Anything with higher pressures than these could cause internal damage to seals and valves, as well as structural damage to the slide, frame and recoil mech.

The argument between actual and potential power with gas systems is a grey area, but it wouldn't be any harm to let them know of these design and material limitations.

Stercus Accidit

I did mention that, and I will continue to do so, I expect to speak to this guy again on monday. My point about this applying to every gas pistol in the country I think is also valid, so I will say that also next time.

Ideally I am hoping there is somebody who has had many dealings with the ballistics in this regard, that could advise me or knows someone in there who understands gbb pistols and how their gas pressure defines their power.

hightower1

Their argument is ridiculous and if we ever needed proof that the gardai are against airsoft and looking for excuses to hassle us there it is.
Sure by their logic you can buy a chainsaw in homebase - legal, buy a car online - legal but add the chansaw to the bonnet of the car and drive it round town - illegal! BAN ALL CARS AND CHAINSAWS! simply becuase they have the potential to be ilegal? Sure humans have the potential to break the law every day .... lets lock everyone up so?! ****e argument.

Dont stand for it, they tried to bully me before into giving up when I had two pistols stopped in customs, they "advised" that to get them back I'd have to go to court or in other words bully tacticts... my advice, take them up on the offer! I did! Dont feel like you have done wrong becuase you havent and I proudly stood in court and got my rightfull and LEGAL property back from them.

They may not like airsoft but there is nothing illegal about it or your items so dont let them try railroad you.

Stercus Accidit

I will see how I get on on monday before I consider going the legal route, I think they are willing to re-test it.

NakedDex

Why does everyone think the Gardaí are out to get them just because they play airsoft?

swiftblade

Also the Gardaí are not stupid. I have been pulled over on a way to a skirmish before and the Garda involved actully knew what Airsoft was. He was polite and allowed me to continue on my way.

But the point about the GBB able to take other types of gas so is therefore illegal is bull. The same could be said for every AEG able to take a stronger spring. Best bet is to be persistant but polite. You will get there in the end

Stercus Accidit

I am dealing with someone high enough up the ranks in ballistics and he does know his stuff, I am just looking for tips on how to proceed, and until he checks the old file they cant tell me what the result was of the first tests. When I know that on monday hopefully I can continue.

Stercus Accidit

hightower1 wrote: »

Their argument is ridiculous and if we ever needed proof that the gardai are against airsoft and looking for excuses to hassle us there it is.
Sure by their logic you can buy a chainsaw in homebase - legal, buy a car online - legal but add the chansaw to the bonnet of the car and drive it round town - illegal! BAN ALL CARS AND CHAINSAWS! simply becuase they have the potential to be ilegal? Sure humans have the potential to break the law every day .... lets lock everyone up so?! ****e argument.

Dont stand for it, they tried to bully me before into giving up when I had two pistols stopped in customs, they "advised" that to get them back I'd have to go to court or in other words bully tacticts... my advice, take them up on the offer! I did! Dont feel like you have done wrong becuase you havent and I proudly stood in court and got my rightfull and LEGAL property back from them.

They may not like airsoft but there is nothing illegal about it or your items so dont let them try railroad you.

I'd say my situation is different to yours, this lad I have been speaking to has been very helpful.

Dracimus

hightower1 wrote: »

Their argument is ridiculous and if we ever needed proof that the gardai are against airsoft and looking for excuses to hassle us there it is.
Sure by their logic you can buy a chainsaw in homebase - legal, buy a car online - legal but add the chansaw to the bonnet of the car and drive it round town - illegal! BAN ALL CARS AND CHAINSAWS! simply becuase they have the potential to be ilegal? Sure humans have the potential to break the law every day .... lets lock everyone up so?! ****e argument.


They may not like airsoft but there is nothing illegal about it or your items so dont let them try railroad you.

They may not like airsoft? a large number of Gardai actually do take part in the hobby. where are you getting the idea they dont like airsoft from?

I wouldnt bother the super in Trim mate as it wasnt his area he will simply refer you back to the super dealing with the issue already. And yes it can take time to get answers back.

As for the argument that you can attach a chainsaw to your car turning 2 perfectly legal items into a mobile instrument of death. wow....just wow.
taking it to extremes there really arent you. The gardai are not out to take every airsoft gun and fail it nor are they out to modify the gas and fail it that way. they test it in a reasonable and well thought out manner and the members in the ballistic section know what they are doing when it comes to airsoft guns as well as real ones.

Stercus Accidit

Just got off the phone there after a very positive conversation with the guy in ballistics I was speaking to before, and they are in the process of retesting.

I want to emphasise that they are being very helpful, this delay up until now has been simply a matter of figuring out who to talk to in the right department.

Gatling

Glad to hear this looks like to be finaly being sorted with a happy outcome

Stercus Accidit

Gatling wrote: »

Glad to hear this looks like to be finaly being sorted with a happy outcome

I won't get too excited just yet, I will post again when I have a conclusive outcome.

Stercus Accidit

I'd like to thank everyone who showed support and to those who gave me advice on this issue.

Life has been hectic lately so I have been off boards, but, about 2 months ago I got this back. I thought I'd wrap that up.

Dread-Lock

Glad to hear you finally got it back mate.

TheDoc

I have a Army 1911 nearly 2 years somewhere in ballistics as it was been sent for testing then "lost"

Must get the information of you who you called, I stopped calling middle of last year cayuse I just gave up, but **** them i want it back

Stercus Accidit

TheDoc wrote: »

I have a Army 1911 nearly 2 years somewhere in ballistics as it was been sent for testing then "lost"

Must get the information of you who you called, I stopped calling middle of last year cayuse I just gave up, but **** them i want it back

I know the feeling, speak to the garda handling your case, ask for permission to have it searched for or for them to ask the superintendent to request same.

I wrote a letter to the super asking about it, I got a reply after a good while, then sent another. You have to ring the super's secretary to follow up on letters to get them replied to.

If you write to the super and explain clearly and in as short a letter as possible what the story is, and ask for him to request ballistics to search for it, or for permission to contact them yourself to find out where it is.

Once you are directed to speak to them, ballistics will talk to you, they only wont take calls etc. from people who weren't directed to them. Once I said that I had been redirected by the super and they had been sent my letter, they helped me out.

kdouglas

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

I'd like to thank everyone who showed support and to those who gave me advice on this issue.

Life has been hectic lately so I have been off boards, but, about 2 months ago I got this back. I thought I'd wrap that up.

Took long enough, but glad to hear you finally got it back.