Sleep and Running

littlebug

Following on from something ecoli said in another post.

Try and get this in the week building up as the body recovers physically over the first three hours of sleep after this you hit deep sleep.
If Deep sleep is missed however this inhibits physical recover the following night so believe it or not the most important night sleep you need is two days before not the night before.

I’ve been a terrible sleeper since I was a teenager so that’s 20+ years. Undoubtedly this has improved since I started running. By improved I mean maybe I have one unbroken nights sleep every 2-3 weeks rather than months or more between good nights sleep. I also have more “good” nights ie waking once or twice but getting back to sleep fairly quickly. Bad nights are bad... really bad.
So running has improved my sleep to an extent but what effect is lack of sleep likely to have on my running? I tend to blame everything on my age and lack of natural ability
Incidentally I had my best night’s sleep in many months last night after an Epsom salts bath.

Are there any more insomniac runners out there? Do you find that lack of sleep has any noticeable impact? Any sleep enhancing tips?

Fizman

I may also subscribe to this thread as I have a notoriously shocking sleep pattern. Case in point, last night. I ran 10.2 miles in about 1 hr 20 mins. Was home and showered at about 11pm, I didn't actually fall asleep until after 3am!!! 5 hours for me!

So I for one will be interested in what is suggested here!

DustyBin

Hi Littlebug
There's the obvious stuff like:

• No late night caffeine
• No late night sugar / chocolate
• Try a cup of camomile tea before bed - very relaxing

If you haven't tried any of these yet then give it a go
The bath probably relaxed you, letting you sleep better, so try to cut out any stressful stuff before bed also (stop watching Flash Forward, Lost or the like - this last season is crap anyway)

All I gotta do now is look after my own shocking bad sleep

Cartman78

littlebug wrote: »

Following on from something ecoli said in another post.
Are there any more insomniac runners out there? Do you find that lack of sleep has any noticeable impact? Any sleep enhancing tips?

Not an insomniac by an means - normally get around 6 hrs sleep a night depending on how much reading I do. Have the odd restless night but nothing too dramatic.

As for sleep enhancing tips - have you tried burning lavender in the bedroom? Always does the trick. Having a bath/shower before hitting the scratcher can help too, and obviously not eating too big or too late in the evening. I know that diet has a big effect on sleep so there'll probably be someone more qualified than me along here in while.

Peckham

Fizman wrote: »

I may also subscribe to this thread as I have a notoriously shocking sleep pattern. Case in point, last night. I ran 10.2 miles in about 1 hr 20 mins. Was home and showered at about 11pm, I didn't actually fall asleep until after 3am!!! 5 hours for me!

So I for one will be interested in what is suggested here!

AFAIK, late night exercise is not conducive to sleep...this may not be helping your situation. Others better qualified might be in a better position to comment.

kennyb3

Peckham wrote: »

AFAIK, late night exercise is not conducive to sleep...this may not be helping your situation. Others better qualified might be in a better position to comment.

+1, was only reading this last night myself.

skater1

Hi Littlebug
I have a similar problem, perhaps not as severe as yours though. I never have a nights unbroken sleep and find it impossible to sleep late either, no matter how tired I am. I don’t think it has ever really effected my running…. I still manage 35/40 miles a week, but I would probably be a better runner if I got more sleep (that’s my story and Im sticking to it!!)
The big change for me was moving my runs from evening to morning…. I used to find that my body was too awake after running in the evening so found it very hard to nod off (perhaps its something to do with adrenaline?). Now I fall asleep easy at night but wake very early, and so go for my runs pretty early too. The body adjusts to the early starts. I still get roughly the same amount of sleep as before, but its better sleep, if that makes sense?

All the usual stuff they recommend Im sure you’re already doing… don’t eat late, cut caffeine etc etc.

TFBubendorfer

My sleep pattern improved markedly once I started drinking a small glass of milk immediately before going to bed. I can't remember where I'd read it, but some protein in milk (no idea which one) helps you to relax. It definitely worked for me. Substituting cheese or yoghurt for milk does not work, btw.

littlebug

Fizman wrote: »

I may also subscribe to this thread as I have a notoriously shocking sleep pattern. Case in point, last night. I ran 10.2 miles in about 1 hr 20 mins. Was home and showered at about 11pm, I didn't actually fall asleep until after 3am!!! 5 hours for me!

I was just going to say what Peckham and kennyb already have! My husband normally sleeps like a log but won't sleep well if he runs late in the evening.

DustyBin wrote: »

Hi Littlebug
There's the obvious stuff like:

I'm pretty good for most of those except the tv... maybe late night CSI isn't a good thing!

Cartman78 wrote: »

As for sleep enhancing tips - have you tried burning lavender in the bedroom? .

I've probably tried them all at this stage! While the bath may have done the trick last night I wouldn't count on it to work again

Getting to sleep isn't the problem... it's staying asleep and then getting back to sleep if I wake up.

In terms of muscle recovery etc is there a difference in getting a few good hours sleep e.g Fizman above 5 hours solid and maybe getting 5 hours broken...e.g 1 hr sleep, 1 hr awake, etc etc..

Cartman78

Meant to say as well...this tea is brilliant about 30 mins before bed.

Also, I listen to relaxation CD's (waves, birdsong etc.) most nights and would recommend them

MarieC

a banana before bed is meant to be great I have heard!!

littlebug

skater1 wrote: »

I would probably be a better runner if I got more sleep (that’s my story and Im sticking to it!!).

Oh most definitely :cool:


Anyway one of the reasons I started running in the first place was to try to sleep better. I hadn't counted on getting so hooked but I think if I could improve the sleep side of things even more the running might get easier. At the minute I feel like I "need" rest days between even slightly longer or slightly faster runs.
Keep the sleepy tips coming. With enough of them I might just hit on the right combination.
Tfubendorfer... milk... ugh.... I haven't drank milk on it's own since I was about 2 but for the sake of a good nights sleep maybe I'll give it a go (bleuch).

TheTherapist

I had this problem too when i was a teenager. Since then i started studyin acupuncture. Before i studied it i went to see an acupuncturist for vertigo, sinusitis and insomnia.
Turns out acupuncture was amazing for it. Totally relaxed me to a state that nothing iv experienced before.
One session had me asleep for the rest of the week. Should take a few goes to clear it totally but this depends on the underlying problem.

Id give it a go anyway. Insomnia is very annoying, especially when you can hear someone snore in the house and get jealous of them.:p

toomuchdetail

Have a similar cycle on the sleep :
Been going on about 16 months and was fine for most of the previous 40yrs . I think the issues with me anyway are more to do with life itself in work/family/economics pressures etc (the issues dont seem to be obvious as I tend not to worry about anything but they must be there !!)
Like to think of myself as a poor sleeper who runs rather that a runner who can't sleep . (Avge nights sleep 6.5 hrs broken by at least 1 x 15/20min break )
The major question/hurlde I have is that while I have had the tests etc to ensure I have no issue medically the Doc suggested medication in the from of zanax or simialr which I think are meant to relax you , I currently take a more holistic approach regards no caffine past 7, no late night runs,no heavy meals, baths etc but the medication seems the easy option??
Does the like of the medication have an effect on training/running performing ? Dont want to end up a 15m miler with a great big smile but dont want to end up a 6m miler for 2 miles only .

HardyEustace

Resurrecting this thread as just wondering if anyone else is experiencing sleep problems as they start to up their mileage?

I woke up about four times last night and are having the WEIRDEST dreams. Is this happening to anyone else? I'm hoping it'll go as my head is wrecked from it.

RayCun

littlebug wrote: »

I'm pretty good for most of those except the tv... maybe late night CSI isn't a good thing!

AFAIK watching tv or using the computer before going to bed are both bad ideas. I'm afraid I can't remember the details, but they're both supposed to be very bad, while reading a book - even though it's also mental stimulation and physical immobility - is fine.

Krusty_Clown

RayCun wrote: »

AFAIK watching tv or using the computer before going to bed are both bad ideas. I'm afraid I can't remember the details, but they're both supposed to be very bad, while reading a book - even though it's also mental stimulation and physical immobility - is fine.

Yes, TV, laptops, portable reading devices and little flickery lights from phones, chargers, stereos and devices in standby. The reason being (according to a documentary I watched) the brain can be subconsciously triggered into believing that the sun is rising and awakens accordingly.

In order to prevent difficulty getting to sleep, they suggested that you only go to bed to sleep. No evening napping downstairs. If you want to read, do it downstairs. If you want to watch TV, do it downstairs. Listen to music? downstairs.. etc.. Dunno what you're supposed to do if you live in a bungalow.

Cartman78

Whatever you do, don't watch 'Inception' before going to bed....that'll really give you screwy dreams

I think it might be an idea to break whatever cycle you're in a the moment...have a shower or a bath before going to bed, eat earlier in the evening etc. Once you get one decent night's sleep you should be back on track...normally works for me anyway

hunnymonster

I bought this stuff - lavender spray (from the same makers of the infamous zum rub) and it has made a real difference to my sleep. I still don't get a full night's sleep but I'm getting to sleep quicker than I was.

Qwerty27

I'm having problems with very restless legs and actually getting to sleep in the first place, especially after a longer run. HAve to get out of bed, stretch and more of less shake or "kick out" my legs! Any ideas what causes this or if theres anything I can do to prevent this and help me fall asleep!

Thanks!

Krusty_Clown

Qwerty27 wrote: »

I'm having problems with very restless legs and actually getting to sleep in the first place, especially after a longer run. HAve to get out of bed, stretch and more of less shake or "kick out" my legs! Any ideas what causes this or if theres anything I can do to prevent this and help me fall asleep!

I've had a similar issue, where every time I'd stretch my legs they would go into cramp (I'm pretty sure it's caused by dehydration). Even subconsciously I no longer stretch my legs in bed without being fully awake, in case of the dreaded cramps.

I actually had a dream the other night about getting lost during a marathon.... Oh, wait.. That actually happened.. :rolleyes:

HardyEustace

I think dehydration is a major factor in this.

In a way, it's one of the problems I'm having - back in from evening run, dehydrated so drinking water. This continues all evening so I then spend the night waking up for a pee. Last night needed three bathroom trips. <sigh>

ilovetorun

Qwerty27 wrote: »

I'm having problems with very restless legs and actually getting to sleep in the first place, especially after a longer run. HAve to get out of bed, stretch and more of less shake or "kick out" my legs!

I am the exact same after a long run! I find my feet are really hot and restless. I find it really difficult to get to sleep aswell. I almost dread my long runs now as I know I will find it hard to sleep after it. Because of work commitments I have to do my LSR during the week and it plays havoc with my sleeping pattern

Blueskye

There is no such thing as an ideal length of sleep. Napoleon, Churchill and Thatcher are all reported as only needing 3 and 4 hours a night.

Your body will take all the sleep it needs unless forcibly prevented.

1. Take exercise early in the day.
2. Avoid spicy or heavy food and caffeine in the few hours before bed.
3. Have a milky drink beforebed.
4. Take time to relax by having a warmbath, listening to restful music or complete a relaxation exercise.
5. Make sure your bedroom is quiet and your bed is comfortable.
6. Go to bed only when you are sleepy.
7. Use your bed only for sleeping - no Reading, tv or eating in bed unless you are sure these activities help you sleep.
8. When in bed, relax and don't think about worrying issues. If there is a problem, identify all yr worrying thoughts by writing them down on paper earlier in the evening and leave that paper downstairs. If you are still worrying try to think of pleasant things.
9. Carry out a relaxation exercise. Loads online.
10. If you haven't fallen asleep in 20 mins, or if you wake and can't getback to sleep, get out of bed and do something else until you feel sleepy. Don't lie there tossing and turning. Go to a different room and do something unstimulating like Reading. Return to bed when you feel sleepy.
11. Set your alarm and get up at the sane time each morning regardless of how much sleep you got during the night.
12. Turn the clock face away so you cannot see the time.
13. No daytime naps.

I've taken this from a reputable self-help book. Mostly common sense.

metamorphosis

For me - 6 hours and im flying. Generally 6-7 hours. I find now, my body is starting to wake up on weekends at the same time i get up weekdays but weekdays i dont wake up untill the alarm goes off, then the weekend when there is no alarm set i just wake up at the same time i do on weekdays.

I find if i get more than 7-8 hours, i don't want to get out of the bed and just want to stay there, same with anything less than 6. 6-7 hours and i feel great.

I guess it's just about getting your body into a routine and what suits. Different strokes and all that.

I find a shower brilliant just before bed if you are having trouble sleeping.

louthandproud

Beginning to wonder after reading the above how night feeds marry up to marathon training and recovery after training, 4 hours of sleep in a row is like a distant memory at the moment.....:eek:

HardyEustace

louthandproud wrote: »

Beginning to wonder after reading the above how night feeds marry up to marathon training and recovery after training, 4 hours of sleep in a row is like a distant memory at the moment.....:eek:

And they wonder why some eat their young...

elvis jones

Working a full time job, commuting Laois to Dubin, night work as a Dj and a 10 month old all really can hit my sleep.

Some nights i'm lucky to get 4 hrs and i find not only am i tired but that the time my body needs to recover isn't enough.

It can hit races as well in that i have to pick a race months in advance to suit my dj work and to make sure i'm off the night before and after in that trying to run a half marathon after 4 hrs of sleep isn't on and a long drive afterwards setting up gear and 4 hrs plus on my feet doesn't fly either.

At the moment i'm on overtime in work at the weekend as well and that means i'm trying to do my LSR after one job and between another.

The winter is easier for me but the hrs of light are less which doesn't help either.

i find myslef going to bed at 9:30 midweek to make sure i get the sleep so i can run the following evening without being too tired.

Stark

Qwerty27 wrote:

I'm having problems with very restless legs and actually getting to sleep in the first place, especially after a longer run. HAve to get out of bed, stretch and more of less shake or "kick out" my legs! Any ideas what causes this or if theres anything I can do to prevent this and help me fall asleep!

Thanks!

ilovetorun wrote:

I am the exact same after a long run! I find my feet are really hot and restless. I find it really difficult to get to sleep aswell. I almost dread my long runs now as I know I will find it hard to sleep after it. Because of work commitments I have to do my LSR during the week and it plays havoc with my sleeping pattern

I started taking magnesium supplements (try to get the chelated variety) and I found the problems with restless legs have greatly subsided. Epsom salt baths are also good for getting magnesium into your bloodstream.

littlebug

louthandproud wrote: »

Beginning to wonder after reading the above how night feeds marry up to marathon training and recovery after training, 4 hours of sleep in a row is like a distant memory at the moment.....:eek:

I haven't done a night feed for 5 years and 4 hours of sleep in a row is still a rarity :eek:
(don't mean to scare you or anything )

Bloody Nipples

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/1,7124,s6-241-285--13267-0,00.html

This may be of interest.

littlebug

Stark wrote: »

I started taking magnesium supplements (try to get the chelated variety) and I found the problems with restless legs have greatly subsided. Epsom salt baths are also good for getting magnesium into your bloodstream.

That's interesting. The one night in recent months that I could honestly say in the morning that I felt like i'd had a good nights sleep was after an epsom salts bath.

I actually do believe I have a sleep disorder of some sort. At the minute I never go to bed before 12 because if I sleep any earlier I'm guaranteed to wake within an hour and remain awake for a long time and have broken sleep for the rest of the night.
I do puzzles... sudoku etc...it doesn't sound relaxing but it takes my mind away from everything else and just focusing on one thing makes me sleepy... i repeat as necessary on nights where I wake up a lot ie I'll get back to sleep quicker if I just sit up and do a puzzle than if I lie there tossing and turning waiting for sleep to come.
Tea before bed actually works well for me but that's probably because I drink it weak and milky. All of the above is based on probably 25 years of sleep issues

Since I've been running sleep has improved greatly... with a good nights sleep now meaning that i've only woken once or twice and got back to sleep reasonably quickly. A bad night is waking every half hour or more frequently... when I have one of these they're usually followed by 3 or 4 more

I must try magnesium supplements. In the meantime I will continue to blame sleeplessness for my lack of speed.

RacoonQueen

Your first post sounds exactly like me littlebug. I've had trouble sleeping for years. I wake up numerous times a night, last friday before the bogtrotters marathon I woke up about 6 or 7 times the night before the race. Running has helped and when I began running it helped big time but now I've been running a few years it's more or less gone back to how it was before I started running and if definitely impacts on my trianing. It's even worse now over the last few months, since I was sick in February.

I often nap when I come home from work for about 30 mins to an hour then get up to run and usually have a good run afterwards.

HardyEustace

Guys, I've just started reading this book - close your mouth.

Maybe some of the breathing techniques might help with the sleep?

He does list interrupted and/or poor sleep as a symptom of bad breathing.

Stark

I don't see how you could consciously control your breathing while you sleep.

Snoring and sleep apnea are definitely contributors to poor nights' rest. If you're a snorer, it's probably worth looking into treating that.

littlebug

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Your first post sounds exactly like me littlebug. I've had trouble sleeping for years.

Unless you get it sorted you can look forward to being a loon like me in about 20 years time It's horrible though isn't it

pgmcpq

I used to suffer badly form insomnia.

Valerian or melatonin are diet supplement that can help. So did knocking off caffine (coffee or tea) for a while (though do this gradually). Changing job helped too .

Brianderunner

I find that if i get less than 6hrs sleep a night, my resting pulse is way up, 15-20 beats higher, i feel dehydrated and the run feels much tougher than usual. I never sleep well the night before races, partly cause of nerves but mainly most of them are on too early.

aero2k

Qwerty27 wrote: »

I'm having problems with very restless legs and actually getting to sleep in the first place, especially after a longer run. HAve to get out of bed, stretch and more of less shake or "kick out" my legs! Any ideas what causes this or if theres anything I can do to prevent this and help me fall asleep!

Thanks!

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I've had a similar issue, where every time I'd stretch my legs they would go into cramp (I'm pretty sure it's caused by dehydration). Even subconsciously I no longer stretch my legs in bed without being fully awake, in case of the dreaded cramps.

I actually had a dream the other night about getting lost during a marathon.... Oh, wait.. That actually happened.. :rolleyes:

I'm wary of straying into medical advice here, but I think the above two situations may be quite different. Restless leg syndrome is a well documented medical problem - it's hard to describe but basically you just can't lie or sit still. Some family members suffer from it and it puts them through hell almost daily. The main recommendation is to reduce salt intake, and there's also medication but you'll have to ask your GP about that.

There's also a medical condition that makes you kick in your sleep - usually affects one side. Not harmful - have a quick Google to learn more.

As for legs cramping, thankfully I rarely suffer but like you Krusty I have to remember not to stretch or tense the legs up when I'm lying in bed - got a major one last night and had to jump out of the bed.

Regarding sleep, for the last while I rarely get an uninterrupted night's sleep. I usually wake around 3 or 4am then go back to sleep. It doesn't seem to cause any detrimental effects.