why are people so passive

MrPint

Hello all,
Just wondering why the peoples of Ireland are such a passive people?
.Our health/education/civil service care is a shambles and way overpriced. The government is pillaging the peoples pockets for no seen return.
.Many services roads/insurances/telecommunications are taxed or very expensive with a poor service provided.
.The peoples representitives are telling lies with no recourse. .Funbadamental principles of bussiness is neglected by our leaders (DDDA 430m sign off by Brian with no valuation - is a minimum gross negligence, would be fired in private sector).
.Tourism industry which should be worth billions more to Ireland is seen as a joke abroad, Airports/ taxes/ overpriced accomdation and food.
.Being denied the right to travel (north Korea) with people not getting passports which is a requirement from the Government.
.The systematic rape and abuse of Children where the perpitrator is protected because he is part of and institution close to the government( if it was a ordinary person they would arrested and charged
. Carelessness by large industries is encouraged by the bailouts with no recourse (paid for by the peoples taxes)

What I am trying to understand is why people are not on the streets and putting pressure on the governence of this country. Are we a nation of begrudgers who care for nothing bar our individual well being? Can people not see how this will effect our children and children of their children?

All the best
Mr Pint

ps Apologies if this is the wrong furom, please move if so

simplistic2

What is the incentive for the individual to actually go out and protest?

When has protesting ever changed the system?

MrPint

the reason is the betterment (if thats a word) of the land you live in. Fairer pricing,justice, value for money, Good governence, a better society. But I am begining to believe that in ireland we look at ourselves and say sure if im alright then darn the rest ill give a few quid to trocaire and that will put my mind at ease. I think we are just not or we do not want to become a social minded people.

All the best

Mr Pint

Gary L

The egocentric world view tends to accept( or perhaps distort) the status quo regardless of information available. For whatever reason it seems to be quite dominant here.

Fergus

I've been wondering about this too. With the latest news that we're all paying another 1300 a year for Anglo for the next 10 years, and that the 3% insurance levy we've been paying since 1982 to prevent another PMPA has never been used for such (and now talk of increasing it to deal with Quinn!)...

As far as I can tell, all this pain we will suffer for the latest mess is not going to do anything to prevent it happening again.

How bad does it have to get?

thirtythirty

So you'd like to go on the street waving banners and shouting? That's a good idea :rolleyes:

If you really wanted to do something and didn't just want to rabble, then why don't you set up a new non-profit organisation that looks at solutions to the varying problems you've raised. Then perhaps you can go with these solutions and propositions in hand and actually DO something instead of shouting at the people in charge!

.Our health/education/civil service care is a shambles and way overpriced. The government is pillaging the peoples pockets for no seen return.

- yes, because of a serious bloat of administration staff in each sector among other things, but if you propose reforms let's see who starts pushing back - the government, or the people?

.Many services roads/insurances/telecommunications are taxed or very expensive with a poor service provided.

- roads and telecomms have been growing at a massive rate relative to cost. What is the "poor service" and how would you solve it? Insurances, yes I agree whole heartedly. But what about insurance regulation - can you do anything there?

.The peoples representitives are telling lies with no recourse. Lies in what respect? Expenses? Service provision? State finances? Yes they are in some cases, but not others. So how do you propose we identify the "stretched truth", and how would you guard against any replacements doing the same?

-etc etc.

I agree with 90% of what you're saying, but you're approach leaves a lot to be desired! Street protesting is an archaic form of rebellion. If you start shouting "you're c.rap!", you get a "ok,well if you say so" response. But if you point out "you're doing x wrong, the public want it done Y way", then you get discussions, and hopefully action.

Skrynesaver

I could go ransack Anglo HQ on Stephens Green, or nip down to Mount street and demolish the FF HQ, or wander up to Drumcondra and sack the bishop's Palace but I have to pick one. Perhaps if I get a chance at the weekend I'll take a run at it and do all three

Seriously though it's an absence of credible leadership, there are those who would protest but they need a leader/movement to coalesce around. Me saying "Right everyone outside the Anglo HQ @ 12:30 on Tuesday" doesn't carry much weight and those who are adept @ postering (spell-check suggests posturing ) have no credibility with the majority of citizens, the SWM etc...

That said, the anti-establishment groupings should be doing well out of things as they are because the establishment in Ireland has proved itself corrupt to the core.

Gary L

He who wishes to exert a useful influence must be careful to insult nothing. Let him not be troubled by what seems absurd, but concentrate his energies to the creation of what is good. He must not demolish, but build. He must raise temples where mankind may come and partake of the purest pleasure.

Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe
German dramatist, novelist, poet, & scientist (1749 - 1832)

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

southsiderosie

I think protesting can be relevant, but only if it has a real signalling function. At this point, it's unclear to me that protesting would matter much in Ireland, since voters keep electing the same party to office no matter what they do. Yes, it may signal that people are mad, but TDs know that by and large, voters will not veer too far from the status quo (especially if they can continue to delay a general election).

One thing that people could do here (but don't) is boycott. People say they are outraged by the Church's response to the abuse scandal, but still go to mass and still put money in the collection plates. People complain about high prices, but still shop at stores that are ripping them off. If people aren't going to actively protest against the institutions that they are unhappy with, at least they could passively do so - yet they don't. I don't understand it at all.

Denerick

Countries with mass political participation and anger are hardly better run. Greece = basket case. Iceland = fooked. France = economically uncompetitive. USA = Politically divided. Brazil = severe class problems. etc.

I think people don't protest in Ireland because they understand it serves little purpose AND we also have a good sense of the ridiculous. When someone makes an impassioned speech we almost instinctively ask about their motivations. I think its the main reason that the Blueshirts never properly took off here (Otherwise we were perfect for a facist order - culturally conservative, deferential to hierarchy, insular/nationalistic, ritualistic, a national bogeyman (UK) etc. etc.)

EDIT: I should add that I think political protest is often necessary, but most times its overblown and peddled by a few self interested demagogues looking for attention from the press.

Denerick

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

This is the kind of demagoguery I'm talking about. Manipulating the issues at hand in order to peddle a fringe economic philosophy. Converting the problems of the nation into a simplistic narrative of national failure which can only be fixed with a 'grand cure' that only the enlightened can offer.

drunken_munky52

Protesting will only at best, kick one political party out of office for another one that is equally clueless to step in.

There is no such thing a "sustainable politics" Therefore it politics needed to become irrelevant.

Politicians don't change things; they are there to keep things the way they are.

Take the many problems you mentioned OP... can a load of overpaid hot air in suits, huddled around each other in a chamber, attacking and defending each other for their own egotistic gain really solve the problems you mentioned?

No. They can not. They are not are educated in those areas nor do they have any basic skills and concepts to do so, and thats the problem. They go to college to do political science so they can waffle to the public; whereas the an engineer goes to to college so he can one day have the skills needed to solve the problems you speak of.

Denerick

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

No. They can not. They are not are educated in those areas nor do they have any basic skills and concepts to do so, and thats the problem. They go to college to do political science so they can waffle to the public; whereas the an engineer goes to to college so he can one day have the skills needed to solve the problems you speak of.

Actually most government ministers have either a background in law or in the teaching profession. Surprisingly few TDs have degrees in political science, which may be part of the problem. (Lack of knowledge of basic political economy)

drunken_munky52

Denerick wrote: »

Actually most government ministers have either a background in law or in the teaching profession. Surprisingly few TDs have degrees in political science, which may be part of the problem. (Lack of knowledge of basic political economy)

Technology solves problems actually I should have added. Engineering and science subjects are not been taken up enough. Maybe that is other reason why this country is screwed.

MrPint

hello all,
i think that prostesting can serve as purpose. No it will not change the system but if pressure is applied to those that run the system for change then they must bring about those changes or their own system will suffer.( if for example the gov have no taxes or imports are blocked then the commerce of the country will suffer and inturn the taxes/jobs etc will become on issue for the gov as they a charged with their governence.
It is true that many TD's are farily useless, the main reason I believe is corruption. They peddle to the needs of few and this keeps them in power. If they would be held accountable for their action(or lack of) then maybe they would have a healthy respect for the peoples issue's.

Denerick said
"I should add that I think political protest is often necessary, but most times its overblown and peddled by a few self interested demagogues looking for attention from the press."
I completly agree with this statement specially here in ROI. Protests are mostly hijacked by the politicaly motivated parties. I was watching the protests against NAMA on OConnell st and seen alot of politically motivated slogans and so on(this kept me from joining in). This protest for example should have been in the defence and protection of the peoples of this land rather some parties trying to win the day?

Drunken Munky said
"Protesting will only at best, kick one political party out of office for another one that is equally clueless to step in."
This I believe also to be correct and the reason I think is that no matter what party is in charge none of them feel accountable at the end of the day. I think they have a mind set of a Ruler rather than a governer. Maybe left in the mindset from when we where under direct rule from GB, ie dosent really matter what the populace think they will have to accept the decision made for good or worse.

another thought I have is that the government job (TD) is seen as a gravey train. Which it is, and this needs to change or we will never see good governence here. People should want to go into the Dail to enhance the prosperity of this land and its people and not to to get a nice pension.

Great debate here

all the best

MrPint

Fergus

It seems like the way ministers and the whole executive part of the govt gets 'appointed' is a big part of the problem.

Should not ministers of national departments be directly elected by national elections, based on their qualifications for running that department?

Right now we have politicians running departments they don't understand, who's only concern is getting re-elected in some unrelated local constituency.

And then these ministers also appoint the regulators who seem to too often be the product/crony of the industry they are supposed to be regulating. Perhaps because the minister gets much of their 'advice' from the experts put forward by the industry itself and doesn't know any better.

A Primal Nut

MrPint wrote: »

the reason is the betterment (if thats a word) of the land you live in. Fairer pricing,justice, value for money, Good governence, a better society. But I am begining to believe that in ireland we look at ourselves and say sure if im alright then darn the rest ill give a few quid to trocaire and that will put my mind at ease. I think we are just not or we do not want to become a social minded people.

All the best

Mr Pint

The money isn't there to pay for all the things people are demanding. All the protests in the world isn't going to make money magically appear for the government to spend.

MrPint

very true Primal Nut, however if we used our tax for the the people insted of saving banks to to tune of 25 odd billion maybe just maybe we could afford those things. I have no problems with paying more taxes if the monies are spent wisely and give me and increased standard of living.
The monies are not there because of bad governence and so back to my question why are people so passive and except this status?
NAMA and the bank bailout should not have happened.

All the best

Mr Pint

culture vandals

the words "bet down" seem to spring to mind with this one...my own opinion on this is simple... alot out there might feel like this corruption has been going on for so long it's nearly like we have become desencitised (scuse the spelling) to it at this stage... when i see and hear crazy things on the news... what i think is " my god thats awful but i'm NOT SUPRISED"


corruption and authority seem to go hand in hand in ireland... i think we need to format the disk to be honest, start a fresh if such a thing is possable... or maybe a good start would be to have our polititions be qualified for the jobs and departments they are in...if you like.... if a TD is in the finance deartment then the have a pre government employment grounding and the highest qualification in economics.

also we need to find a way of making people who are corrupt properly accountable for their actions.

just my 2cents worth

MrPint

Exactly Culture Vandal make the corrupt or those that are not up to standard accountable for their actions. Sadly I think this will be a long time happening here. Already the inquiry into the bank/regulator is behind closed doors and on a voluntary basis. (Enquiry Irish style). they should be infront of a judge/panel with with an open public gallery (tomatoes at the ready:D).
And we the people accept this....................why?

all the best

MrPint

culture vandals

it seems to me somtimes that it's nearly in the governments best intrest to keep things as complicated as possable, for example... the thing going on with the regulator, quinn insurence and anglo, why has common sence left the decision making process...confusing the issue seems to help people in power to keep the detail skewed... i'm just so tired of the whole thing....like, whats it gonna be next week... maybe anglo could use some of the bail out money to buy a thank you card for each tax payer in ireland lol

seriously tho... is it true that the finance minister is thinking to letting the bank guarentee run on after the september deadline... are we really gonna let the government just give an open ended infinate guarentee with no accountability and no comeback.... i think that come september we should just let the markets decide how much anglo and quinn are worth instead of throwing money at em.... are they really that important?.... start administration and let put all this **** behind us so we can move onto maybe something that a little more important instead of distracting like maybe...ohhhh i dont know...... getting some fecking jobs going again in this country....in the immortal words of scrappy doo who screams " let me at 'em, let me at 'em"....

time to start issuing the slaps i think.....

this thread started by asking why people are passive... well i reckon if any more things happen in this country the people are not gonna be so passive anymore, the camel back straw is coming and i'm sharpening my axe for that day.

MysNthR0p3

The problem with the Irish is we're all mouth and no action, and the people who want to grasp power are usually astute enough to know what they can get away with.

Ireland has been cultivated as a welfare state. People are indoctrinated to look for handouts or for easy ways of accomplishing the barest of results rather than being impressed to action to better themselves. So they get in a habit of complaining about how lousy things are, but don't feel impressed to do anything about it.

The government realises there is a lousy turnout of voters, usually because of voter apathy. Voter apathy occurs in disgruntled members of the populace. Ergo, the majority of people who disagree with the government will not go out of their way to vote them out of power. The government knows this, and they know the demographics of the people who do vote. So they please the voters and don't care about those who don't vote.

This whole board is made up of thousands of people who complain about things that irritate them, but rarely do much outside of typing on here. Don't get me wrong, I'm one of those people so if I'm being critical I'm being so of myself equally.

Look in any discussion on any topic where somebody is complaining and you'll either find they're not taking any action other than typing here, or they've attempted to take a little action but give up when they get no answer.

Other nationalities won't take that kind of treatment. They'll kick and scream until something is done.

People like to say its because we were a subjugated nation and so its ingrained in our mentality not to make a fuss. To me that's BS. Its because we were raised on welfare and manipulated by people who were more astute than us. If we're subjugated and our situation sucks its because we deserve it for not getting off our ar$es and doing something about it.

Amhran Nua

MrPint wrote: »

Hello all,
Just wondering why the peoples of Ireland are such a passive people?

They haven't been hit heavily in their taxes yet.

Denerick

Amhran Nua wrote: »

They haven't been hit heavily in their taxes yet.

Thats a good point actually, the tax burden in this country as a share of GDP is still relatively small compared to our more social democrat European partners. Frances pays heavy taxes so the least its citizens can expect is flawless public services. That might actually explain quite a lot.

Amhran Nua

Denerick wrote: »

Thats a good point actually, the tax burden in this country as a share of GDP is still relatively small compared to our more social democrat European partners. Frances pays heavy taxes so the least its citizens can expect is flawless public services. That might actually explain quite a lot.

Well I didn't say that taxes were too low, just that people haven't yet paid directly for the sleight of hand being pulled by the lads in the Publican Party, and if Lenihan and co have anything to do with it, they'll delay that overdue bill until they are out of power, thus attempting to shift the blame for the mess onto whoever comes after them. And it will be a heavy bill. If expenditure was even at 2004 levels, we'd be breaking even right now, we shouldn't need to increase taxes.

DidierMc

Amhran Nua wrote: »

They haven't been hit heavily in their taxes yet.

That's why you libertarian types are so flawed. You assumed people are moved by nothing except how much money is in their pockets.

Denerick

DidierMc wrote: »

That's why you libertarian types are so flawed. You assumed people are moved by nothing except how much money is in their pockets.

No, you completely misunderstand. Ireland has a relatively small tax burden, but a libertarian certainly would not agree with that statement. And people are motivated by how much money is in their pockets, do remember the majority of people fund a welfare system they rarely or partly use for those who rely on it most, so for the masses to get outraged or motivated, its going to come as a result of massive tax hikes to pay for public services they like but mightn't necessarily care enough to leave the couch for.

DidierMc

Denerick wrote: »

No, you completely misunderstand. Ireland has a relatively small tax burden, but a libertarian certainly would not agree with that statement. And people are motivated by how much money is in their pockets, do remember the majority of people fund a welfare system they rarely or partly use for those who rely on it most, so for the masses to get outraged or motivated, its going to come as a result of massive tax hikes to pay for public services they like but mightn't necessarily care enough to leave the couch for.

You should try studying some history post American War of Independence

Denerick

DidierMc wrote: »

You should try studying some history post American War of Independence

Wow, thanks for your recommendation. I'll give Macauly a go, then.

Amhran Nua

DidierMc wrote: »

That's why you libertarian types are so flawed. You assumed people are moved by nothing except how much money is in their pockets.

Em, you've got the wrong man I'm afraid, I'm one of those who have stridently argued against the contranymously named libertarianism in every discussion.

That was feedback from the doorsteps. People are seeing no real connection between government errors and their personal situation, its all just the loonies in the Dáil to many, and sure the EU will bail us out. They will start making the connection when taxes have to be hiked to pay for these errors.

Eliot Rosewater

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Em, you've got the wrong man I'm afraid, I'm one of those who have stridently argued against the contranymously named libertarianism in every discussion.

I'm assuming that you don't know the difference between positive liberty and negative liberty.

By the way, "contranymously" isn't even a word.

Amhran Nua

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I'm assuming that you don't know the difference between positive liberty and negative liberty.

Is that like the negative growth all the property people were talking about? Doubleplus ungood!

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

By the way, "contranymously" isn't even a word.

Just because you can't find it, doesn't mean its not a word.

Eliot Rosewater

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Is that like the negative growth all the property people were talking about? Doubleplus ungood!

So will I assume you're not going to address that then?

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Just because you can't find it, doesn't mean its not a word.

The word "contranymously" isn't there.

Perhaps when Amhran Nua get into government they'll introduce a new law mandating that all dictionaries distributed in Ireland must contain every word they coin, and that all citizens must use at least one of these words every day? :pac:

Amhran Nua

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

So will I assume you're not going to address that then?

I'd rather keep clear of your own personal Minitrue, if its all the same.

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

The word "contranymously" isn't there.

You mean you couldn't pull the usual and Googlebluff it? Oh such coinage!

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Perhaps when Amhran Nua get into government they'll introduce a new law mandating that all dictionaries distributed in Ireland must contain every word they coin, and that all citizens must use at least one of these words every day? :pac:

And that's that, really.

culture vandals

lol...and yet another thread on boards ends off topic..... no wonder nothing gets done here.... were just so easily distracted.

boars

I think the Irish need to take a page from the french???

Any bull**** over there and they scream "revolution"

alias141282

The main reason is because of the Media. Its worth reading Noam Chomsky's book 'Manufacturing Consent' which analyses the mass media in the United States. Its a real eye opener.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent:_The_Political_Economy_of_the_Mass_Media