CPSU to investigate initiating legal action over pay cuts

ixoy

Tiime to get the knives out:

Delegates at the CPSU conference in Galway have passed a motion instructing their National Executive to explore the possibility of taking legal action against the Department of Finance for breach of contract with their members arising from the recent pay cuts in Budget 2010.

The union has also voted to oppose any moves by management to allow temporary staff to be sourced outside the existing civil service pool.

The motion said that management had discussed using people on FÁS 'back to work' schemes to fill vacancies in peak season.
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Speakers said that this would lead to a two-tier system of employment, where permanent clerical staff would be working alongside temporary staff getting paid unemployment benefit plus an allowance.

Delegates also passed a motion instructing the union's executive to ensure that other terms and conditions - on top of pay cuts - were not given away in the name of public sector reform.

Earlier, delegates gave a standing ovation to their colleagues in the Passport Office.

Workers in the Passport Office have been at the forefront of the industrial action over pay cuts.

Addressing the conference, General Secretary Blair Horan apologised to members of the public affected by the industrial action.

However, he said he would not apologise to anyone for the legitimate action they were taking.

'We take no pleasure in this industrial action, but we do it out of necessity to protect our already low living standards,' he said.

The dispute has led to a massive backlog of passport applications and created long queues outside the office earlier this week.

Mr Horan said that some members said they should have taken strike action, but he said that would have meant that no-one would have got a passport.

However, he made it clear that the action would continue until they got a settlement in the current talks that would be acceptable to lower paid workers.

He outlined figures showing that there had been a huge increase over the last ten years in the numbers of top civil servants, who had also done far better in terms of pay.

Industrial action to escalate if talks fail

Shortly before lunch, delegates voted unanimously to escalate their industrial action across the civil service if this weekend's public sector talks fail.

Kieran Hodge of Passport Office said he understood why the public were upset.

However, he pointed out that he had taken two pay cuts on an already low salary and he was entitled to be upset too.

CPSU President Denis Walsh highlighted the impact of pay cuts on members' living standards.

There was also criticism of the media for what was described as the coordinated demonising of public servants.

One delegate approached the media table and threw pieces of tissue at reporters, saying they should be ashamed of themselves.

However, another delegate approached the table and apologised for the conduct of his colleague.

So on what grounds would they have a legal basis for cuts? They're not judges - are they saying they've some right never to have a pay cut?

What were the stories of their lives being shattered on what is still, in many ways, a decent salary? What % of CPSU members are below 30k?

What are they willing to do for reform then? Only to be discussed on reversal of cuts? What financial plans, if any, have they released for this?

I love the fact that they didn't mean to inconvenience people but won't apologise for it, won't look to accept help from others, won't consider any changes unless its reversals, and won't stop any current actions. How progressive.

MagicSean

ixoy wrote: »

Tiime to get the knives out:



So on what grounds would they have a legal basis for cuts? They're not judges - are they saying they've some right never to have a pay cut?

What were the stories of their lives being shattered on what is still, in many ways, a decent salary? What % of CPSU members are below 30k?

What are they willing to do for reform then? Only to be discussed on reversal of cuts? What financial plans, if any, have they released for this?

I love the fact that they didn't mean to inconvenience people but won't apologise for it, won't look to accept help from others, won't consider any changes unless its reversals, and won't stop any current actions. How progressive.

Are you asking a legal question or lookin to bash to public service?

gandalf

I would have thought the first thing that any trade union worth its salt would have done is to get legal advice on the pay cuts back in December when they occured. If this did not happen what the hell are they actually doing. Thats incompetance of the highest order. I suspect they have already done the investigation and these are just hollow words to give their members the impression that they are doing something.

Laminations

deadtiger wrote: »

I would have thought the first thing that any trade union worth its salt would have done is to get legal advice on the pay cuts back in December when they occured. If this did not happen what the hell are they actually doing. Thats incompetance of the highest order. I suspect they have already done the investigation and these are just hollow words to give their members the impression that they are doing something.

Initiating legal proceedings would turn any possible negotiations very sour very fast, so I maybe they are looked at as a last resort?

ixoy

k_mac wrote: »

Are you asking a legal question or lookin to bash to public service?

I'm asking a number of questions - they're not rhetorical. I'd really like to know what basis they have, what stories were told, etc. Yes the attitude annoys me but I'm interested in theirs and how justified it is.

gandalf

Laminations wrote: »

Initiating legal proceedings would turn any possible negotiations very sour very fast, so I maybe they are looked at as a last resort?

Surely examining if something was illegal would be the first port of call and would ensure that the union had the high moral ground and would be preferable to any strike or other action which is causing the general public issues?

MagicSean

deadtiger wrote: »

I would have thought the first thing that any trade union worth its salt would have done is to get legal advice on the pay cuts back in December when they occured. If this did not happen what the hell are they actually doing. Thats incompetance of the highest order. I suspect they have already done the investigation and these are just hollow words to give their members the impression that they are doing something.

I would agree. As a member of the public service I think this is a waste of time. The cuts have been made. If they are to be reversed it can only be done by improving efficiency in the public sector.

rightwingdub

k_mac wrote: »

I would agree. As a member of the public service I think this is a waste of time. The cuts have been made. If they are to be reversed it can only be done by improving efficiency in the public sector.

I heard that the Garda Representative Association (GRA) lost a court against the pension levy the other day, the judge stated that it was in the nation's financial interests not to reverse the pension levy. I agree with you the pay cuts can only be reversed through massive redundancies and private sector work practices been applied in the public sector.

Also, if the passport staff are giving out about their pay, they can always quit and go on the dole, try to find work in the private sector?

Finally, if they claim that these jobs were modestly paid why did they apply for these jobs in the first place?

dromdrom

I wonder would there be any legal grounds if someone who had important travel plans interrupted (business meeting , funeral etc..) were to take an action against the CPSU over the functionaries in the passport office throwing the toys out of the pram.

whampiri

Typical over-reaction/demonising by the media.lies lies and damned lies.

FACT 1: NO 1 threw tissues at the media. Not a single person did. what actually happened(I was there) was a delegate handed a reporter some cotton wool and told her that she could use that to clog her ears if she didn't like what was being said and that way she could make up any lies she wanted, like they were prone to do anyway.

FACT 2: I went into this job 4 years ago and took a 2500k wage decrease after working in the private sector for 8 years. I know of no front line member on more than 28000k. I myself earn 412 per wk. On that i pay for a 10year old car,insurance, mortgage,bills etc etc etc. by the time im finished I have barely enough to feed myself.BTW my mortgage is 800pm for a 1bed apartment, not a mansion.

FACT 3: Industrial action isn't nice, but when diplomacy fails, its the only weapon we have.

FACT 4: NO one wants to be on strike/industrial action etc.

FACT 5: 2 of the 3 passport machines are currently broken and that is why there's a delay in getting passports to people.

FACT 6: People in the public sector are losing their homes because of this paycut.

FACT 8: Clerical officers in the CPSU offered a solution to the queues in Dublin and Cork. Management implimented this in Cork thursday and only did so on Friday in Dublin. If anyone doubts me, have a look at the queues in Dublin, you will notice that they are much reduced.

FACT 9: This problem within the passport office did not occur overnight.It's been on the cards for the last 10weeks and management and the govt did sweet F all to try alleviate the problem.

Last but not least; I hope that I can go into my job on monday without abuse at my 'normal' rate of pay but I've as much belief thats going to happen as I do about any banker being jailed for putting the country into the situation we're in.

rightwingdub

whampiri wrote: »

Typical over-reaction/demonising by the media.lies lies and damned lies.

FACT 1: NO 1 threw tissues at the media. Not a single person did. what actually happened(I was there) was a delegate handed a reporter some cotton wool and told her that she could use that to clog her ears if she didn't like what was being said and that way she could make up any lies she wanted, like they were prone to do anyway.

FACT 2: I went into this job 4 years ago and took a 2500k wage decrease after working in the private sector for 8 years. I know of no front line member on more than 28000k. I myself earn 412 per wk. On that i pay for a 10year old car,insurance, mortgage,bills etc etc etc. by the time im finished I have barely enough to feed myself.BTW my mortgage is 800pm for a 1bed apartment, not a mansion.

FACT 3: Industrial action isn't nice, but when diplomacy fails, its the only weapon we have.

FACT 4: NO one wants to be on strike/industrial action etc.

FACT 5: 2 of the 3 passport machines are currently broken and that is why there's a delay in getting passports to people.

FACT 6: People in the public sector are losing their homes because of this paycut.

FACT 8: Clerical officers in the CPSU offered a solution to the queues in Dublin and Cork. Management implimented this in Cork thursday and only did so on Friday in Dublin. If anyone doubts me, have a look at the queues in Dublin, you will notice that they are much reduced.

FACT 9: This problem within the passport office did not occur overnight.It's been on the cards for the last 10weeks and management and the govt did sweet F all to try alleviate the problem.

Last but not least; I hope that I can go into my job on monday without abuse at my 'normal' rate of pay but I've as much belief thats going to happen as I do about any banker being jailed for putting the country into the situation we're in.

Fact 1: your an eejit to be taking out a mortgage at 800 euros a month, are you paying it on your own if say for arguments sake you were making 470-480 a week before the pay cuts, Its your own fault for buying an overpriced mortgage, you could have rented at lot cheaper rates.

Fact 2: If you say you took a pay cut of 2,500 per annum, why did you go into the public sector, you should have toughed it out in the private sector, would secure pensions and lifelong job security have something to do with your decision to move into the public sector.

Fact 3: There could be serious unrest at passport office between people waiting for passports and passport workers on strike.

Fact 4: The public sector unions are not doing themselves any favours long term, what if the government defaults on its debts and the ECB or the IMF are called in, your union leaders will have some explaining to do.

Fact 5: More people in the private sector have lost their houses at disproportionate levels when compared to public sector workers, if your having problems meeting your mortgage repayments speak to a bank manager or move into a friends house and rent it out. The tenant can pay 50% of the bills.

MagicSean

rightwingdub wrote: »

I heard that the Garda Representative Association (GRA) lost a court against the pension levy the other day, the judge stated that it was in the nation's financial interests not to reverse the pension levy. I agree with you the pay cuts can only be reversed through massive redundancies and private sector work practices been applied in the public sector.

Also, if the passport staff are giving out about their pay, they can always quit and go on the dole, try to find work in the private sector?

Finally, if they claim that these jobs were modestly paid why did they apply for these jobs in the first place?

I never said that. I said improve efficiency. There should be no need for anyone to lose their job. And private sector practices haven't worked too well for all those people on the dole have they?

Inquitus

whampiri wrote: »

Typical over-reaction/demonising by the media.lies lies and damned lies.

FACT 1: NO 1 threw tissues at the media. Not a single person did. what actually happened(I was there) was a delegate handed a reporter some cotton wool and told her that she could use that to clog her ears if she didn't like what was being said and that way she could make up any lies she wanted, like they were prone to do anyway.

FACT 2: I went into this job 4 years ago and took a 2500k wage decrease after working in the private sector for 8 years. I know of no front line member on more than 28000k. I myself earn 412 per wk. On that i pay for a 10year old car,insurance, mortgage,bills etc etc etc. by the time im finished I have barely enough to feed myself.BTW my mortgage is 800pm for a 1bed apartment, not a mansion.

FACT 3: Industrial action isn't nice, but when diplomacy fails, its the only weapon we have.

FACT 4: NO one wants to be on strike/industrial action etc.

FACT 5: 2 of the 3 passport machines are currently broken and that is why there's a delay in getting passports to people.

FACT 6: People in the public sector are losing their homes because of this paycut.

FACT 8: Clerical officers in the CPSU offered a solution to the queues in Dublin and Cork. Management implimented this in Cork thursday and only did so on Friday in Dublin. If anyone doubts me, have a look at the queues in Dublin, you will notice that they are much reduced.

FACT 9: This problem within the passport office did not occur overnight.It's been on the cards for the last 10weeks and management and the govt did sweet F all to try alleviate the problem.

Last but not least; I hope that I can go into my job on monday without abuse at my 'normal' rate of pay but I've as much belief thats going to happen as I do about any banker being jailed for putting the country into the situation we're in.

FACT 10 - No one in the CPSU can count to 9

rightwingdub

k_mac wrote: »

I never said that. I said improve efficiency. There should be no need for anyone to lose their job. And private sector practices haven't worked too well for all those people on the dole have they?

Do you believe people in the public sector should be entitled to have guaranteed jobs for life, what about all the pen pushers in the civil service council offices, HSE, department of education?

MagicSean

rightwingdub wrote: »

Do you believe people in the public sector should be entitled to have guaranteed jobs for life, what about all the pen pushers in the civil service council offices, HSE, department of education?

In the current climate I don't think we should be looking for any job cuts. I think there is enough people on the dole. I think we should be trying to make the most out of the resources we have in the public sector.

rightwingdub

k_mac wrote: »

In the current climate I don't think we should be looking for any job cuts. I think there is enough people on the dole. I think we should be trying to make the most out of the resources we have in the public sector.

But private sector taxes are paying for an overbloated inefficient public sector, it would actually cost the government less long term if they made 80,000 public sector workers redundant over the next 3 years.


It would also give the private sector some badly needed breathing space, I do believe the passport office staff and social welfare offices should be outsourced to private sector companies.

MagicSean

rightwingdub wrote: »

But private sector taxes are paying for an overbloated inefficient public sector, it would actually cost the government less long term if they made 80,000 public sector workers redundant over the next 3 years.


It would also give the private sector some badly needed breathing space, I do believe the passport office staff and social welfare offices should be outsourced to private sector companies.

Like I said, make it more efficient and increase productivity. You're trying to demonise public sector workers as something akin to job stealers. They are the same as anyone else. They just happen to be employed by the government. Making them unemployed wont increase employment in the private sector.

gandalf

What has the last 6 or so posts got to do with the actual topic at hand?

MagicSean

deadtiger wrote: »

What has the last 6 or so posts got to do with the actual topic at hand?

I believe I said the CPSU should be investigating ways of improving efficiency rather than wasting time with ridiculous legal action. And Mr Rightwingdub and I disagreed on how this efficiency should be reached.

rightwingdub

Well the CPSU should be legally disbanded as a trade union in the same way Reagan decertified the air traffic controllers trade union in 1981, public sector workers have too many rights in my opinion, employment legislation is far too biased in favour of employees and is completely biased against employers.

dan_d

Surely the CPSU have absolutely no legal grounds whatsoever to actually pursue and win an action....furthermore, I would imagine that if they actually did manage to find some way to win some sort of action, they would just open floodgates for everyone in the private sector who has also had to take cuts.
Think they're barking up the wrong tree on this one. Surely no judge in their right mind would allow them gain anything by this.

whampiri

@rightwingdub:
Well done, when you can not justify an arguement you decide to start name calling. I did move into the public sector to ensure that I could afford to pay my mortgage because the belief was that the wages were stable.
There is already unrest between the passport office and the public. This is due to the mis-information campagain and the laziness of this government and management.Speaking of lazy...have you ever seen a lazy civil servant? Thats the way people describe all civil servants yet the passport office deals with 2500 passport applications per week. so lazy really doesnt come into it.
You mention the IMF, what another bunch of scare mongering.There are other sources that this 8billion can be sourced from.(shell, Anglo etc etc.)

'Well the CPSU should be legally disbanded as a trade union in the same way Reagan decertified the air traffic controllers trade union in 1981, public sector workers have too many rights in my opinion, employment legislation is far too biased in favour of employees and is completely biased against employers'

Irish legistlation and EU law are fairly coparable when it comes to workers/employment rights.

Originally Posted by rightwingdub
'But private sector taxes are paying for an overbloated inefficient public sector, it would actually cost the government less long term if they made 80,000 public sector workers redundant over the next 3 years.'

You are incorrect when you say that the irish system is bloated, we have 13% of the workforce in the public service in comparisson to the EU average of 16%.

changes

whampiri wrote: »

You are incorrect when you say that the irish system is bloated, we have 13% of the workforce in the public service in comparisson to the EU average of 16%.

The UK has 20.3% of its workforce in the PS.

steof1984

rightwingdub wrote: »

Well the CPSU should be legally disbanded as a trade union in the same way Reagan decertified the air traffic controllers trade union in 1981, public sector workers have too many rights in my opinion, employment legislation is far too biased in favour of employees and is completely biased against employers.

Regan disbanded the PACTO union because there is a law in America banning strikes by Government Unions. There is no such law in Ireland, so the Government couldn’t disband the union.

Also he didn’t really disband the union, he sacked the 11,000 workers thus making the union obsolete

When you say Public Sector workers have too many rights do you mean in comparison to Private Sector workers ? If so what rights to Public Sector workers have over Private Sector workers?

You feel the legislation should protect companies more and not protect the individual?

stepbar

Well considering the unions offered up unpaid leave as an alternative to paycuts means that there's capacity for redundancies in the cs. Its either that or paycuts. They cant have their cake and eat it.

The Muppet

rightwingdub wrote: »

Fact 1: your an eejit to be taking out a mortgage at 800 euros a month, are you paying it on your own if say for arguments sake you were making 470-480 a week before the pay cuts, Its your own fault for buying an overpriced mortgage, you could have rented at lot cheaper rates.

Why shouldn't Public Sevants be paid enough to afford a modest morgage? Oh yes the servants shouldn't be able to afford their own property, they should be renting. I think your taking the Servants bit a little too literally.

rightwingdub wrote: »

But private sector taxes are paying for an overbloated inefficient public sector, it would actually cost the government less long term if they made 80,000 public sector workers redundant over the next 3 years.





It would also give the private sector some badly needed breathing space, I do believe the passport office staff and social welfare offices should be outsourced to private sector companies.

Private sector taxes are paying for services that the private sector avail of in the same way as the Money you give Tesco is paying for your food which doesn't give you any say over the employees of Tesco's, does it? The same applies to public sector taxes.

Head The Wall

The Muppet wrote: »

Why shouldn't Public Sevants be paid enough to afford a modest morgage? Oh yes the servants shouldn't be able to afford their own property, they should be renting. I think your taking the Servants bit a little too literally.

The affordability issue applies to everyone be they public or private. You're not entitled to anything, you have to work for everything and only spend what you have or can afford to borrow. Situations also change and you have to allow for this.

The Muppet wrote: »

Private sector taxes are paying for services that the private sector avail of in the same way as the Money you give Tesco is paying for your food which doesn't give you any say over the employees of Tesco's, does it? The same applies to public sector taxes.

I can choose to spend my money with Tesco, if I am not happy with the service or I feel I am not getting value for money I can take that money elsewhere. This will directly affect Tesco as they are losing a customer

We don't have thois option with the public sector. Doesn't seem like they have much to offer in the ways of value or efficiency. I'm sure they keep the paper suppliers of this country in Caviar and champagne though

changes

stepbar wrote: »

Well considering the unions offered up unpaid leave as an alternative to paycuts means that there's capacity for redundancies in the cs. Its either that or paycuts. They cant have their cake and eat it.

That was 4 days to be taken over 3 years = 12 days. 0.015% of the working year.
Are you not just scraping the barrel now for anti PS drivel???

Head The Wall

changes wrote: »

That was 4 days to be taken over 3 years = 12 days. 0.015% of the working year.
Are you not just scraping the barrel now for anti PS drivel???

It was 12 days in the first year to reduce the pay bill and the reforms should have been in by the second year and then they would do the full year

stepbar

changes wrote: »

That was 4 days to be taken over 3 years = 12 days. 0.015% of the working year.
Are you not just scraping the barrel now for anti PS drivel???

Na. Let me tell you a story from the private sector. A person I know has taken a 10% paycut but has been given days off in lieu. However staff were laid off as well. And no, it was 12 days in the first year and not what you said. The unions said they could ensure the same level of service. Therefore they've admitted there's over capacity in the cs.

changes

stepbar wrote: »

And no, it was 12 days in the first year and not what you said.

Yeah fair enough about the 12 days in one year. I seem to remember talk at the time of spreading it over 3 years or so. It didn't have much support among the people i work with when they were floating it before christmas. A union notion just. Never really was a runner imo.

Head The Wall

It wasn't a notion, the union are still harping on about it saying it was part of a solution. In reality it was a joke

SeanW

whampiri wrote: »

FACT 6: People in the public sector are losing their homes because of this paycut.

And this differs from the private sector ... how exactly?

changes wrote:

The UK has 20.3% of its workforce in the PS

It's also bankrupt, having begun to sell the family silver (airports, the CTRL etc) to keep the wolf (creditors) from the door. According to Daniel Hannon, conservative MP, before the crash the U.K. govermnet went on a hiring spree, expanding quangos, hiring large numbers of people in racism awareness counsellor and local government officials and other useless posts.

It also has a deficit/GDP ratio of 13% currently and racing towards 18%. That's right, 13%, worse than both Greece (12.5%) and Ireland (11.25%). There is clearly a lot of waste and maladministration in the Irish public services, hence we need to take an axe to it. The British need a chainsaw.

k_mac wrote:

In the current climate I don't think we should be looking for any job cuts. I think there is enough people on the dole. I think we should be trying to make the most out of the resources we have in the public sector.

It's very simple, we either put all the unneeded and/or uncooperative public servants on the dole, or we raise taxes DRAMATICALLY (on people who may already have been badly hit, or had very little to begin with) to protect them from the economic collapse that has hammered everyone else. One or other of these options must be chosen and there is no way around it: the law of economics is (re)asserting itself.

No country has ever taxed its way to recovery. No economy has ever prospered by taxing its remaining productive capacity into the ground. But "live within your means" is time tested and rock solid advice.

changes

Head The Wall wrote: »

It wasn't a notion, the union are still harping on about it saying it was part of a solution. In reality it was a joke

I hope they drop it an drop it fast. It might suit the higher paid staff but it doesn't suit the rest. I couldn't afford to let 12 days pay go.

whampiri

@SeanW:

you don't seem to get it.leave me put it in very simple terms. For my work, i get 420net+change less car insurance of 10pw,tax at 10pw,mortgage at 212pw and management fee at 10pw, esb at 10pw(approx), 40petrol pw(side note:any1 notice that it's shot up alot recently??), food at 50pw(approx) =342euro leaving me with 80euro.Thats my disposable income.(someone asked and I am single= no second income)

Single person on dole at full rate gets 204.30+46 rent allowance+medical card(say that the 'average' person is sick 3 times a year)20pw+fuel allowane at 21euro x 16wks/52=6pw
total is 276-rent at 50pw,food at 50pw and esb at 10pw=166euro disposable income.

Based on these examples you can see that CPSU workers are not on big money.In fact when you work it out, i go to work for about 4 euro an hour more than someone on the dole.

gandalf

whampiri wrote: »

@SeanW:

you don't seem to get it.leave me put it in very simple terms. For my work, i get 420net+change less car insurance of 10pw,tax at 10pw,mortgage at 212pw and management fee at 10pw, esb at 10pw(approx), 40petrol pw(side note:any1 notice that it's shot up alot recently??), food at 50pw(approx) =342euro leaving me with 80euro.Thats my disposable income.(someone asked and I am single= no second income)

Single person on dole at full rate gets 204.30+46 rent allowance+medical card(say that the 'average' person is sick 3 times a year)20pw+fuel allowane at 21euro x 16wks/52=6pw
total is 276-rent at 50pw,food at 50pw and esb at 10pw=166euro disposable income.

Based on these examples you can see that CPSU workers are not on big money.In fact when you work it out, i go to work for about 4 euro an hour more than someone on the dole.

I am sure we can get a lot of people to list their out goings like this but it gets us nowhere.

People have taken cuts in their wages in most cases because their employer is losing money. People have lost their jobs because their employer is losing money.

If the State was a business given the difference between incomings and outgoings it would probably have been liquidated by now. It doesn't take a genius to see that cuts have to be made and unfortunately for you and your colleagues one of the major areas of expenditure is wages.

An awful lot of people are feeling pain at the moment. An awful lot of people are having problems making ends meat at the moment. The difference is we realise how bad things are and we are knuckling down and getting on with the job in hand you and your colleagues on the other hand feel they should be immune to this pain and feel that we the taxpayer should continue to fund your wages which is unsustainable.

It appears you want to mortgage the future of our children and from my point of view that is completely unacceptable.

SeanW

whampiri wrote: »

@SeanW:

you don't seem to get it.leave me put it in very simple terms. For my work, i get 420net+change less car insurance of 10pw,tax at 10pw,mortgage at 212pw and management fee at 10pw, esb at 10pw(approx), 40petrol pw(side note:any1 notice that it's shot up alot recently??), food at 50pw(approx) =342euro leaving me with 80euro.Thats my disposable income.(someone asked and I am single= no second income)

Again, how does this differ to the private sector where cuts and job losses have been commonplace? Are you suggesting that these situations are only occuring in the public sector?

So let me put this in very simple terms. The State is broke. To prevent you from having to deal with a lower income, the world outside the public service (which has suffered as much if not more) must be taxed into oblivion. The current public sector pay bill is unsustainable without an insane level of tax hikes, so pay cuts and/or redundancies are inevitable.

Additionally, you simply must admit that it's very difficult for a rational outsider to have sympathy for the public service with crap like this going on:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65062857&postcount=10
and we all know that this is but a microchasm of the wholesale rape of taxpayers and abuse of service users.

But in your specific case (assuming you do a job other than back office admin) it might be more just to take the majority of the cuts out of the top-heavy level of managers and administrators in the P.S. than (presumably you are?) some 'front line' workers or customer-facing workers. I was particulary PO'ed that some of the highest level senior civil servants got their paycuts reversed because a BONUS scheme had run out, and that's just wrong.

whampiri

@SeanW: I agree that sick days may be abused by some within the public sector but I'll also tell you that alot of those sick days are caused by stress. To be fair, and I have 12 years private sector experience behind me, I was never threatened by the public within the private sector for doing my job. I'm threatened on a weekly basis within the public sector. Fortunately I have pretty thick skin but I understand as to the reason that people go out sick with stress leave when yobos come into the office threatening people because they can't get what they want. If i wrote a book on the office, it would be put into the irish fiction section because people would not believe it.

The CPSU is looking for equity. How is it that high ranking officials were able to lobby their political buddies to get their pay cut reduced to a mere 3%? thats 3% of 125K+ while the clerical officer takes a hit of 7% on 25Kapprox. How is that equitable? If this was increased to the 7% it should be, it would mean that 3-4 clerical officers wouldnt have to take these draconian cuts. A simple solution here would be to tax all high earners at a 3rd scale. Essentially its the same thing, both take money out of the economy and spending.

@deadtiger: I dont advocate mortgaging our childrens futures on this but what sort of future will people have if they have nowhere to live. I'm not making the divide here between public and private, indeed 8 of my close friends have lost their jobs in the private sector and i sympathise with them, but the fact that they worked in the construction sector and now need to go abroad is not my fault. Public servants dont have a problem with taking a small bit of the pain BUT when we are made the scappegoats while certain officials can give them 70K increases,ministers are flown to votes at a cost of 6K in govt jets and ministers can afford to go away with their husbands/wives on junkets during paddys day, enough is enough.

gandalf

whampiri wrote: »

@deadtiger: I dont advocate mortgaging our childrens futures on this but what sort of future will people have if they have nowhere to live. I'm not making the divide here between public and private, indeed 8 of my close friends have lost their jobs in the private sector and i sympathise with them, but the fact that they worked in the construction sector and now need to go abroad is not my fault.

Look I see where you are coming from my friend I too have a mortgage my wife is expecting our first child in June and she will be on maternity leave meaning our income is reduced. I am not lucky enough to be in a job where I have security at the moment and I may lose it in the next few months. These however are my problems and no one elses I do not expect to get a hand out if my circumstances change, I will just deal with them as best as I can.

Why should I worry if you can or cannot pay your mortgage if it is apparent that the State has to cut wages across the board. As you have said about your friends in construction they have lost their jobs and they have to emigrate you feel sympathy towards them but its not your fault. Its probably not theirs either btw.

So then why should I and all the other taxpayers be expected to increase taxes to pay for your wages. Its not my fault that the State doesn't have the money to keep your wages at the same level as it did when they were raking in the stamp duty from the property bubble the developers and bankers created. I feel sympathy for you but reduction in costs is a necessity and it has to happen now.

Public servants dont have a problem with taking a small bit of the pain BUT when we are made the scappegoats while certain officials can give them 70K increases,ministers are flown to votes at a cost of 6K in govt jets and ministers can afford to go away with their husbands/wives on junkets during paddys day, enough is enough.

Well the higher paid civil servants is a disgrace and its one your union let happen by standing shoulder to shoulder with their union. You got used by them.

As for elected officials they will be dealt with at election time. That is the beauty of a democratic system. I in particular am going to enjoy the demise of the Green Party and the expulsion of FF to a political wilderness hopefully for a very long time indeed.

whampiri

@deadtiger: Congratulations and I hope the job keeps going till that child is 18+ at least.

You ask as to why people should be taxed to keep my wages at the same rate. Its because people want an efficient and effective public service. People pay for what they get and if you dont pay them whats needed, these highly qualified people will go elsewhere.
Now I know the counter arguement to this.Where will they go? So why is it that we are paying bankers so much money to look after NAMA? It's because they're highly qualified and if they don't get their money, they'll go elsewhere. Now why is it that that arguement holds and the civil service one doesn't? In fact the civil service arguement is stronger. Who is going to hire a banker who along with his 'friends' have brought down an economy?

Election time isnt soon enough because this shower(the govt) will have the country bankrupt by then. NAMA is paying the banks to manage the assets that they gave the loans for. Am I the only one that sees that its jobs for the fellas and to hell with the rest of the country. The 70K increase that the ex-chairman of revenue is getting is enough to pay for 3 Clerical officers!! It would pay for the cut in our wages for nearly 28 members. The 6K that was spent on flying a certain minister home pays for another 2. Combine that with the pay increses that the other 3 members of NAMA are getting ,for working PART TIME, equates to nearly another 80 members pay cuts.

People seem to ignore the fact that everyone is looking to save billions rather that millions. The above examples are just off the top of my head....ooh and dont get me started on the 150million estimated that it is going to cost the tax payer to rename departments.(btw, thats another 600K Clerical officers who wouldnt need to take pay cuts)

SeanW

whampiri wrote: »

@SeanW: I agree that sick days may be abused by some within the public sector but I'll also tell you that alot of those sick days are caused by stress.

If you are referring to my link about the driver testers, that was about more than sick days. Until recently, it was common for individuals to have to wait over a year for a driving test. The only reason for this was that the public service monopoly is inefficient, totally unable to handle the job, and the only solution offered by the unions was to give their members even more overtime than they were already getting.

The government grew a pair and hired SGS to do some driving tests. They cleared the waiting list in less than a year and did tests for half the cost. Proving beyond doubt that the PS is lazy, greedy, incompetent and irredeemably malevolent, their union took the gov't to the Labour Relations Commission, which unfortunately ruled in their favour. As a result, waiting times are climbing again or will soon do so. Costs are set to increase too.

This was a clear case of the PS sticking two fingers up the Irish people, and it is for these reasons that the gov't needs to stop dithering, stop talking to these malicious beards, grow a pair, and start imposing changes preferably with the backing of new legislation (such as no-strike laws) and damn anyone who objects.

How is it that high ranking officials were able to lobby their political buddies to get their pay cut reduced to a mere 3%? thats 3% of 125K+ while the clerical officer takes a hit of 7% on 25Kapprox.

It isn't. But you must ask the CPSU why they didn't raise any objections, if they didn't?

8 of my close friends have lost their jobs in the private sector and i sympathise with them, but the fact that they worked in the construction sector and now need to go abroad is not my fault.

And (since the State is broke) vice versa.

whampiri

The union did raise objections but these were ignored. In fact, it was shown at congress that even though Social Welfare offices are 3-times busier than they were 2 years ago, that they have recieved only 14% more clerical Officers since 1998 while the upper echilons at AP level have recieved in excess of 144% increase in their numbers.

SeanW

whampiri wrote: »

while the upper echilons at AP level have recieved in excess of 144% increase in their numbers.

Then clearly this is where the bulk of efficiencies need to be found. But I still believe the public is getting a raw deal from the entire public service, with perhaps a few exceptions such as your office. Maybe.

whampiri

Agreed here, the problem here though is that, based on the governments roll back on the pay cuts, it seems to be jobs for the boys.

murphaph

whampiri wrote: »

You ask as to why people should be taxed to keep my wages at the same rate. Its because people want an efficient and effective public service. People pay for what they get and if you dont pay them whats needed, these highly qualified people will go elsewhere.

The CPSU doesn't represent "highly qualified staff"!! It represents clerical officers who (for the most part) can be trained up in a matter of days/weeks. These clerical workers running passports through printing machines (and similar work) are being overpaid for it relative to the private sector.

whampiri wrote: »

Now I know the counter arguement to this.Where will they go? So why is it that we are paying bankers so much money to look after NAMA? It's because they're highly qualified and if they don't get their money, they'll go elsewhere. Now why is it that that arguement holds and the civil service one doesn't? In fact the civil service arguement is stronger. Who is going to hire a banker who along with his 'friends' have brought down an economy?

I am prepared to take the risk that the vast bulk of the public service won't resign in disgust that their pay has been reduced :rolleyes: (no chance, once they start looking in the newspaper to see what's out their for basic admin work...20k tops).

changes

murphaph wrote: »

(no chance, once they start looking in the newspaper to see what's out their for basic admin work...20k tops).

Try 35K to 45K below

http://www.irishjobs.ie/Jobs/Secretarial-Administration-Personal-Assistant-6254981.aspx

Remember if someone is a bit thick or slow they won't get through the selection process for a CO job... there is alot of competition for the posts.

The jobs you talk about for 20K or less would prob have accepted anybody in normal times and it would be up to management to watch them like a hawk for fear of costly mistakes being made.

Mistakes at CO level can have quite serious concequences in many departments. I believe its important to employ people of reasonable intelligence in these positions to ensure the smooth operation of public services. And they should be paid more than 20K imo. Maybe not quite as high as the above post (45K is alot for someone with just the leaving cert, considering that they won't pay the pension levy unlike the public servants on less money).

IrishTonyO

changes wrote: »

Try 35K to 45K below

http://www.irishjobs.ie/Jobs/Secretarial-Administration-Personal-Assistant-6254981.aspx

Remember if someone is a bit thick or slow they won't get through the selection process for a CO job... there is alot of competition for the posts.

The jobs you talk about for 20K or less would prob have accepted anybody in normal times and it would be up to management to watch them like a hawk for fear of costly mistakes being made.

Mistakes at CO level can have quite serious concequences in many departments. I believe its important to employ people of reasonable intelligence in these positions to ensure the smooth operation of public services. And they should be paid more than 20K imo. Maybe not quite as high as the above post (45K is alot for someone with just the leaving cert, considering that they won't pay the pension levy unlike the public servants on less money).

Wow you found one job to quote, well sure then that must be the average!! Also maybe you didn't notice the hours are 8am to 5pm as in a 45 hour week

changes

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Wow you found one job to quote, well sure then that must be the average!!

It took me 5 seconds to find it i'm sure there are more.

IrishTonyO

and it is a 45 hour week

ZiX ZiX ZiX

IrishTonyO wrote: »

and it is a 45 hour week

What they get no lunch break? It's a 40 hour week.

IrishTonyO

hours are from 8-5, everyone gets lunch but you will find a lot of private sector do not get an hour, CPSU working hours are 9-5 and they get an hour lunch break and 2 tea breaks does that mean they only work 32.5 hour week??