Caprica S01E09 "End Of line" [US] *Spoilers*

GSPfan

I also think the Cylon CGI could be better. I actually thought the same when the old style Cylon was in BSG. TOO shiney or something. Just looks cartoony.

The whole Cylon escape scene was poor CGI. The camera movements are too over the top with Zoom-ins and impossible real life-angles. They don't move the camera around like that when its real life so why do it for CGI bits. I'm not good at explaining what I mean but it bugs the schit out of me.

Ah well. Time to leave the thread for 6 months. :mad:

Richard Dower

Ratings, not good...not good at all: http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/29/caprica-nielsen-ratings-for-end-of-the-line-mid-season-finale/46498

omniscient_toad

I was a bit underwhelmed, and unlike many here I was actually rather enjoying the series as it progressed, after being very dubious having watched the pilot.

I was very disappointed that they've finally ended the Amanda character like this, from the start she felt like a prop for other characters to spur the plot along with no depth or story-line herself to draw the viewer in. I kept waiting each episode to see some development of her character, but her only real use has been to jog others stories along, in announcing her daughters role in the bombing, in furthering Clarices plot, and apparently now in driving Daniel to his next move with her death. It's possible the hazy backstory involving her brother will be used to create some neat dovetailed plot circle but she never felt in any way an integral part of the plot herself, and even if they were aware she was to be killed off it lessens the impact or shock when it occurs.

Overall it just felt too much like a conscious attempt to ramp too many threads at once to their cliffhanger points to the detriment of impact and tension. A lot of people seem critical of the pacing thusfar but I've rather enjoyed the ebb and flow of tension, moving on past events only to have them resurface some time later (Vergis and the stolen chip). This episode seemed to drop all that and whizz everything along to cliffhanger point on a number of fronts and just left me feeling flat.

I think they could have played up the increasing tension between Clarice and Barnabas before it got to the carbombing stage, Barnabas has been underused so far and it would have added to the rather lacking Clarice thread. The discovery of Daniels actions in getting his hands on the chip leading to Amandas suicide felt rushed again given the amount of time given to the character previously to no great end, and even the Zoe escape felt a little strange after all the buildup involving Daniel, the lab technician, her friend Lacy. It felt like a lot of this episodes dramatic points were conjured up solely in the episode itself without building on groundwork laid previously, it just didn't seem as neat and clever a midseason finale as I'd expected, I was hoping for some revelations giving deeper meaning to what had occurred previously.

opinion guy

you know I'm wondering if they killing off amanda and zoe cause fans didn't like them ?

Richard Dower

^ they are not dead.

opinion guy

Richard Dower wrote: »

^ they are not dead.

Based on ?

omniscient_toad

Yeah, Zoe I can buy surviving, in fact I expect it, she is physically a military robot and even if that form is badly battered whatever spark her consciousness is contained in just has to survive to keep her in the plot. I don't see how Amanda's survival is in any way sure, I checked again and she definitely begins to fall, she steps off the ledge before Clarice or anyone else can talk her down/stop her. I'm not saying she's certainly dead, but I don't see any evidence to prove she definitely survived, and with cliffhangers leaving multiple characters lives in the balance they rarely save both so as not to have the audience feel cheated.

Richard Dower

opinion guy wrote: »

Based on ?

Common sense + the fact they are in that expensive opening sequence/credits.

Pepe LeFrits

Why do they need to have a CGI van? They've no problem using a real 1980s Merc, so why?

My biggest gripe with this episode wasn't the CGI though (I'm so used to seeing it that I just ignore it) but the music - it was completely over the top. Amanda starts getting dressed and there's this hugely dramatic music that starts playing - er, what? It made sense by the climax, but it started far too early. 'OMFG, she's putting on some pants! HOLY ****!!!!'

Richard Dower

omniscient_toad wrote: »

Yeah, Zoe I can buy surviving, in fact I expect it, she is physically a military robot and even if that form is badly battered whatever spark her consciousness is contained in just has to survive to keep her in the plot. I don't see how Amanda's survival is in any way sure, I checked again and she definitely begins to fall, she steps off the ledge before Clarice or anyone else can talk her down/stop her. I'm not saying she's certainly dead, but I don't see any evidence to prove she definitely survived, and with cliffhangers leaving multiple characters lives in the balance they rarely save both so as not to have the audience feel cheated.

Flaw in your logic, Caprica is a SOAP OPERA...ergo pulling a Bobby Ewing is expected.

omniscient_toad

Not sure if you're simply being facetious for effect but it's clearly not a soap opera, it's one thing to complain about pacing and want more outright action as opposed to character interaction but it's simplistic to claim that anything that falls too far one way in your estimation is automatically a soap. Also not to be blunt, but as a fan of Gossip Girl and the like, is this not a positive for you?

The point about the music is bang on actually, the whole thing felt like it was just too forced and artificial a "this is a midseason finale and everything is dramatically culminating!" from beginning to end and the music really added to that feel of lacking buildup and payoff.

opinion guy

Richard Dower wrote: »

Common sense + the fact they are in that expensive opening sequence/credits.

Common sense? One jumped off a bridge and the other was crashed and exploded.
Zoe-bot is gone, kaput, deactivated. Her life flashed before here eyes and then she was crashed and exploded. Didn't you wonder why the van exploded like it was loaded with C4? Was to show that she was being killed off without any doubt. They cinematically double-underlined the fact that she is dead and won't be back. I suspect Amanda-bot will be created but with seriously altered personality to appease fan hatred

Opening sequence/credits **** don't matter. If the Network says annoying characters need to go they will be axed.

noodler

In my experience the credits in a TV show are shot after the series is so essentially the credits show things which usually are defo going to happen.

Caprica may be a sepcial case though, I mean will we really have the "because I'm worth it moment" between sister whats her name and the blonde one? There hasn't been a scene with the Adama's standing over a grave either in fairness.

I defo don't think Zoe is dead at all.

FreudianSlippers

It is possible that they may take this 6 months to re-evaluate what is and isn't working in this show and return with the Caprica that the show could be.
I, personally, waited for this show with a lot of anticipation and I'd hate to see them just cancel it without even trying to fix it.

I actually think that the show is good, but it's just missing something - something which may come out when Zoë stops acting like a little brat and starts working with her father?!

don ramo

zoe is deffinately not gone, the body is probably damaged beyond repair, but the program is bound to still be there, or even backed-up in v-world, the majority of the show is centered around zoe, plus she was on most of the posters for the advertising campaign, amanda id say will die, but this is a sci-fi world so realistically nobody ever has to die, just maybe there physical body, (the thing id love to know is did people hate baltar as much as they hate amanda, i wasnt really on forums much while BSG was on, they seem like similar caracters) the show is gearing up for what will happen, im gonna presume there gonna jump ahead a few years after season 1, cause daniel will have to have the cylons running soon, so once there runing and in mass production there isnt gonna be much of a story untill the cylons eventually rebel, you can make out a bit whats going to happen, we know josef becomes a judge at some stage, and that willie joins the colonial fleet, we know the cylons will eventually rebel and they will believe in the one true god, so theres going to be some sort of STO stuff tied in there, we know that preventative action is taken to stop cylons hijacking ships therefore galactica (and other battlestars) have no wireless networking, we know battlestars arent created untill later in the war (if the show goes that far id say daniel will have something to do with there devlopment), what else do we know for certain will happen?

GSPfan

I know what this show is missing. A Likeable character.

Seriously do any of you like any of the characters? I struggle to really care about any of them. Which makes their stories kinda un-important.

Quick BSG comparison here..... I loved Helo, Athena, Apollo, Billy, Dee, Tyrol, Baltar, etc. Some of them had flaws but you just wanted them to succeed because they were good people. Even Baltar.

I want to love Caprica. At the moment I just like it. The best scenes so far in the whole show have been Joseph Adama scenes. The one in the pilot when he told William they are Adamas. The one were they let go of their dead loved ones in the ceremony. They were real moments of emotion that made you feel happy or sad for them. The rest of the characters are so caught up in turmoil that their actions are borderline ridiculous at times. (Amanda announcing her daughter is a terrorist... tut).

Are we supposed to like Daniel? Are we supposed to like Zoe? Are we supposed to like Lacy? Are we supposed to like Clarice? Barnabus? Sam? Because all of these characters have been involved in a murder in some way and none of them have any remorse as of yet.

Goodshape

I like Danial as a character. And I enjoy the shades of (often dark) grey in the show.

Disappointed to see so many people complaining and looking for story changes, tbh. Not every strand is my personal cup of tea, but I've been really enjoying seeing most of it unfold - in particular the life-after-death in V-World and how Danial looks set to tap into that for his Cylons.

Owen

You know, if they cut out the scenes of Amanda chainsmoking, we could have had a whole extra episode's worth of material.

omniscient_toad

I suppose while the vworld sections can be fun, having Joseph stuck in there for the past few episodes has unbalanced things a bit, I think the show works better when the episodes balance and contrast the life of the two very different families, cutting back and forth. We don't really have that with Joseph wondering around vworld with the occasional brief worried family natter over his comatose body on the couch. There's none of the clash between Joseph's respectable work in the court (how has he still got a job!) and his brother's criminal background and how they interact, or exposition into Taurons and their life on Caprica. I think the audience needs more of this to parallel the Greystone scenes, with Daniel being a very cerebral reserved character.

The show was after all billed as two very different families colliding , and for the past few episodes leading up to this midseason finale the Adama side of the story has rather taken a back seat, confined to Joseph's vworld quest to find his daughter, i think to the detriment of the show.

FreudianSlippers

I like the characters, they just need development.

FreudianSlippers

GSPfan wrote: »

Are we supposed to like Daniel? Are we supposed to like Zoe? Are we supposed to like Lacy? Are we supposed to like Clarice? Barnabus? Sam? Because all of these characters have been involved in a murder in some way and none of them have any remorse as of yet.

You know... I think that is the point and the interesting thing about this show so far. I don't know where it's going and who is good and who is bad - but I like that. I don't want to watch predictable shows!

GSPfan

Yeah I agree with ya but I find it hard to care about any of them. I wouldn't really care if any of them were were killed off?

See when you say you don't want predictable characters I would say all of the characters in Caprica are predictably corrupt. How am I supposed to be surprised by anything they do.

Sure we'll see what happens when it returns.

FreudianSlippers

GSPfan wrote: »

Yeah I agree with ya but I find it hard to care about any of them. I wouldn't really care if any of them were were killed off?

See when you say you don't want predictable characters I would say all of the characters in Caprica are predictably corrupt. How am I supposed to be surprised by anything they do.

Sure we'll see what happens when it returns.

Oh, I agree... as of right now, we don't have the Starbuck (badass), Apollo (good guy), etc. vibe that almost all the characters had in BSG. But then again, some of the more underdeveloped characters in BSG ended up being the most important. Helo and Boomer/Athena are examples of characters who started with nothing and being almost predictably good to being flawed. I especially loved Boomer turning bad and then you have Athena who you are convinced is up to something bad and is genuinely good.

What I think is interesting about Caprica's characters is that we are witnessing the end times of the 12 colonies, and not only because of the Cylon attack. These are people who are doing everything to excess and seem to be self-centred and self-righteous and are all predictably corrupt, but when they are put in a compromising position how will they react.

If we can just think of Season 1.0 as a backstory or foundation to the characters and we go to 1.5 with a clean slate, I think we might be surprised at who these characters develop into.

GSPfan

Very interesting way of looking at it. I'm actually hoping that is the case now.

I don't like criticising shows like this cause it gives the impression that I know how to do it better..... but I really don't. I think this mid season break has messed with my head.

FreudianSlippers

GSPfan wrote: »

Very interesting way of looking at it. I'm actually hoping that is the case now.

I don't like criticising shows like this cause it gives the impression that I know how to do it better..... but I really don't. I think this mid season break has messed with my head.

have you looked at the video I posted in the Season 1.5 thread? It contains mild spoilers, but not too much... it is the SyFy made promo, so I doubt they'd give too much away.

GSPfan

Just looked at it there. Its a great trailer, so lets hope it lives up to it in some shape or form!

opinion guy

OisinT wrote: »

What I think is interesting about Caprica's characters is that we are witnessing the end times of the 12 colonies, and not only because of the Cylon attack. These are people who are doing everything to excess and seem to be self-centred and self-righteous and are all predictably corrupt, but when they are put in a compromising position how will they react.

See this backs up my theory that the show is about the affect of the credit crash on the celtic tiger and how the Irish come to terms with it. Capricans being the D4's, Taurons' being the D11's etc etc. Nama being represented by the cylons

Volvagia

I like the episode.

I do feel the series has been moving at a slow pace, but I've still enjoyed it, and don't think the pace is too much of a problem. I felt this episode shifted up a gear and for the most part this worked.

The "Last episode for 6 months" effect did take away from the episode somewhat. Such a long gap put a lot of pressure of the episode to deliver, which didn't help.

CGI: Wasn't mad on it, especially the scene in the pyramid stadium where the whole background was CGI, really badly done. A couple of the splosions were a little bit rough more my liking (I think there was a car blowing up in V world that looking like something from GTA3)

What I liked was;

Zoe killing the lab guy, didn't expect it at all and it was great. I thought it was cool to see the first murder of a human by a cylon.

Barnabus putting a gun to Lacey's head. She annoys me.

About the cliffhanger.

It looked like Amanda was already off the bridge, but hard to call. I can see her surviving. but hope the other way.

I think that Zoe will survive, I know there was a nice big explosion but I'd imagine she will have to survive in some form (The chip is recovered or something)

I'm looking forward to where the go after this. I really hope the show doesn't get cancelled and they get to develop the story some more. I haven't watched the trailer yet, but will soon.

Caprica is a very different show, I hope it gets a chance to figure itself out, but putting 6 months in the middle of a season is not wise.

For now I guess i'll make do with Stargate Universe for my sci-fi fix.

ceejay

I wasn't blown away by this episode, but will return to watch it when the series resumes.

I think Amanda is definitely dead, but Daniel will create an avatar and use her for the Cylons.

I think the Zoe Cylon may be destroyed all right, but remember that Clarice took a copy of her from the lab with her wireless USB stick Maybe that's how she actually gets to Gemenon.

In general I think the show needs to pick up a little, and I think the lack of emotional engagement with the characters is a good point - but I think a key theme of the show is about moral relativism, unlike the more black and white BSG (though it did have its moments). Good examples in this episode are Lacy's choice to kill Clarice to save herself and her boyfriend, and Tamara's faking her death and "killing" her father, causing him pain but to release him from his obsession about her so he can move on.

I wonder how Lacy will react when she finds out that her actions and how she has compromised herself to try and save Zoe are actually all in vain...