Are the Passport workers contravening our right to freedom of movement?

Eliot Rosewater

(This isn't a thread on the pros/cons of the strike, its a discussion of one particular angle, so I feel it merits a new thread.)

As it stands the Passport office currently exercises a virtual monopoly in the production of passports. The CPSU is refusing to produce these properly, so could it be argued that they are breaching our right to move freely?

Assuming that we even have a right to freedom of movement.


As someone said on another thread, it doesn't matter why people are traveling abroad. The workers do not have the privilege to decide what type of travel does and does not merit a passport. It would appear to me that our rights are being contravened here.

gandalf

As I said in one of the other threads I would not be surprised if an enterprising Solicitor takes an action on behalf of some of the people who have lost money on holidays that they couldn't enjoy because of this.

I reckon it won't be for those who realised a couple of days ago that their passport had expired but those that did apply within the specified timeframes for processing or those that used the Express Passport service.

MagicSean

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

(This isn't a thread on the pros/cons of the strike, its a discussion of one particular angle, so I feel it merits a new thread.)

As it stands the Passport office currently exercises a virtual monopoly in the production of passports. The CPSU is refusing to produce these properly, so could it be argued that they are breaching our right to move freely?

Assuming that we even have a right to freedom of movement.


As someone said on another thread, it doesn't matter why people are traveling abroad. The workers do not have the privilege to decide what type of travel does and does not merit a passport. It would appear to me that our rights are being contravened here.

They are doing their regular work. They are refusing to work overtime. This is what is causing the backlog.

ixoy

k_mac wrote: »

They are doing their regular work. They are refusing to work overtime. This is what is causing the backlog.

So their regular work includes shutting down counters mid-day? It's industrial action - they're doing the minimal amount of work possible, in many cases, and sometimes less. Regular work would be the level of work they did before the action.

cee_jay

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

The CPSU is refusing to produce these properly, so could it be argued that they are breaching our right to move freely?

They are being still produced properly, but because of a work to rule, and ban on overtime, they aren't being produced as fast as they had been.

gandalf

k_mac wrote: »

They are doing their regular work. They are refusing to work overtime. This is what is causing the backlog.

And refusing to answer phones and man desk on certain Friday afternoons

MagicSean

deadtiger wrote: »

And refusing to answer phones and man desk on certain Friday afternoons

None of which affects the rate of passport processing.

Cavehill Red

All Irish citizens have a constitutional right to travel.
In practice, this means that the state is obligated to provide necessary documents required in order to travel.
So when the state doesn't provide those documents in a reasonable timeframe, they are in breach of the constitution.
In reality, you can't claim on your travel insurance if you fail to travel because you didn't have a passport.
So anyone who's down money on missed holidays or travel can't claim on their insurance. If they want redress, the only way they'll get it is to sue the state.
Legal advice provided by Alan Shatter indicates that the government can in turn sue the CPSU for causing the problem.
So I really hope anyone who doesn't get on their plane due to not getting their passport in a timely fashion subsequently sues the state, forcing the government to pass the bill onto the CPSU.
Then they'll go quickly bankrupt and the public sector staff will hopefully finally cop on to themselves.

ei.sdraob

k_mac wrote: »

None of which affects the rate of passport processing.

rofl ahahahahaha yeh sure :rolleyes: why dont you send in your application

i sent off my application with passport exporess (10 days my arse), 4 weeks later....

cee_jay

ei.sdraob wrote: »

rofl ahahahahaha yeh sure :rolleyes: why dont you send in your application

yes i send of my application with passport exporess (10days meant to take), 4 weeks later....

How does not answering phones, and not manning the counter affect the rate of passport processing then?
I would have thought it might free up staff to work on actually processing the passports??

MagicSean

Cavehill Red wrote: »

All Irish citizens have a constitutional right to travel.
In practice, this means that the state is obligated to provide necessary documents required in order to travel.
So when the state doesn't provide those documents in a reasonable timeframe, they are in breach of the constitution.
In reality, you can't claim on your travel insurance if you fail to travel because you didn't have a passport.
So anyone who's down money on missed holidays or travel can't claim on their insurance. If they want redress, the only way they'll get it is to sue the state.
Legal advice provided by Alan Shatter indicates that the government can in turn sue the CPSU for causing the problem.
So I really hope anyone who doesn't get on their plane due to not getting their passport in a timely fashion subsequently sues the state, forcing the government to pass the bill onto the CPSU.
Then they'll go quickly bankrupt and the public sector staff will hopefully finally cop on to themselves.

The problem is that they haven't reduced the rate of processing except by banning overtime, which they are not required to do by their contract. So the bill would probably fall on the employer for bad management.

I reckon this would be better in the legal discussion forum. Less chance of it developing into public sector bashing as every other thread in the forum has.

MagicSean

ei.sdraob wrote: »

rofl ahahahahaha yeh sure :rolleyes: why dont you send in your application

i sent off my application with passport exporess (10 days my arse), 4 weeks later....

Becuase my passport is in date?

dan_d

More interesting still - my sister, who's passport is not up til April, thought ahead last month and sent it in for renewal early in March. She travels regularly and at short notice for work. And.....she paid 85 eur (?) extra for Swiftpost so it would be turned around as fast as possible.
She's still waiting, regardless of the 85eur, and she's getting pretty annoyed at this stage.
What happens to those who paid the extra?

MagicSean

dan_d wrote: »

More interesting still - my sister, who's passport is not up til April, thought ahead last month and sent it in for renewal early in March. She travels regularly and at short notice for work. And.....she paid 85 eur (?) extra for Swiftpost so it would be turned around as fast as possible.
She's still waiting, regardless of the 85eur, and she's getting pretty annoyed at this stage.
What happens to those who paid the extra?

It's the same question I reckon. All comes down to who the courts say is at fault for the delay.

Cavehill Red

k_mac wrote: »

The problem is that they haven't reduced the rate of processing except by banning overtime, which they are not required to do by their contract. So the bill would probably fall on the employer for bad management.

I reckon this would be better in the legal discussion forum. Less chance of it developing into public sector bashing as every other thread in the forum has.

I'm no lawyer; I'm only sharing with the group the legal advice provided by Alan Shatter.
Whatever people may care for his politics, there is little doubt that he possesses the best constitutional law brain in Ireland.
If he believes that the CPSU can be held legally liable, I'm inclined to believe him and if I were the government I'd be putting the Attorney-General and Chief State Solicitor on notice to drop everything else and start implementing Shatter's proposal.

ei.sdraob

cAr0l wrote: »

How does not answering phones, and not manning the counter affect the rate of passport processing then?
I would have thought it might free up staff to work on actually processing the passports??

i dont know how they are working so slow

if you look at the passport application form you would see it there in black on white the 10 working days thingie for passport express, there has been alot more than double the 10 working days now, and i was keeping an eye on it via tracking code online (which was down too for some period btw)

P. Breathnach

Cavehill Red wrote: »

All Irish citizens have a constitutional right to travel....

Where in the constitution is that expressed?

ei.sdraob

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Where in the constitution is that expressed?

good point, I think he refers to EU laws on free movement?

MagicSean

ei.sdraob wrote: »

i dont know how they are working so slow

if you look at the passport application form you would see it there in black on white the 10 working days thingie for passport express, there has been alot more than double the 10 working days now, and i was keeping an eye on it via tracking code online (which was down too for some period btw)

Because they won't work overtime like they use to and no new staff has been hired. They aren't obliged to work overtime so I can't see them being held legally responsable in the courts.

ei.sdraob

k_mac wrote: »

Because they won't work overtime like they use to and no new staff has been hired. They aren't obliged to work overtime so I can't see them being held legally responsable in the courts.

and they are not answering the phones either so its sort of hard to know what's going on
im still shocked that answering phones is not in their contract, very sloppy


if they have a problem with working then how would they feel about a private company coming in and doing the work? yes thought so!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Cavehill Red

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Where in the constitution is that expressed?

Article 40.3.3, following the thirteenth amendment, in response to the X case.
The implication is that the state always had an inherent responsibility not to inhibit the free movement of its people.
Obviously, EU law applies here also.

MagicSean

ei.sdraob wrote: »

and they are not answering the phones either so its sort of hard to know what's going on
im still shocked that answering phones is not in their contract, very sloppy


if they have a problem with working then how would they feel about a private company coming in and doing the work? yes thought so!

Good for you. Not relevant at all to the thread. There is a thread dedicated to privatising the passport service. Why not do your victory dance there?

KimK

ei.sdraob wrote: »

rofl ahahahahaha yeh sure :rolleyes: why dont you send in your application

i sent off my application with passport exporess (10 days my arse), 4 weeks later....

Hi there, I also used passport express at a cost on €8.50 extra. I sent of my son's application on the 24/02 and it was returned incomplete on the 15/03 (11workin days) due to error with one part of the form.
I returned it to them 18/03 and it was received on the 19/03. Tracked it online and it has today 25/03 been posted (5 working days) also giving an AN POST tracking number.
My mother is still waiting on her passport it was also sent via the express same thing returned incomplete due to photo's incorrect it was received yesterday so here's hoping for another 5 day turn around. :rolleyes:

MagicSean

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

But could the state not claim that this could not be done? When the postal service in N.I. went on strike did they transfer the duties to anyone?

Cavehill Red

k_mac wrote: »

But could the state not claim that this could not be done? When the postal service in N.I. went on strike did they transfer the duties to anyone?

1. The UK doesn't have a written constitution underwriting the basic rights of its subjects (they don't 'do' citizens.)
2. The postal strike did not prevent people from travelling.
3. Alternatives to the postal service were available and were used by many businesses. Some never went back, which has hurt the Royal Mail.

In short, your comparison is irrelevant, sorry.

MagicSean

Cavehill Red wrote: »

1. The UK doesn't have a written constitution underwriting the basic rights of its subjects (they don't 'do' citizens.)
2. The postal strike did not prevent people from travelling.
3. Alternatives to the postal service were available and were used by many businesses. Some never went back, which has hurt the Royal Mail.

In short, your comparison is irrelevant, sorry.

I wasn't comparing the situations as such. I was asking if they had replaced them or had it been too difficult a task. But my question still stands.

Cavehill Red

k_mac wrote: »

I wasn't comparing the situations as such. I was asking if they had replaced them or had it been too difficult a task. But my question still stands.

Other than attempting distraction, what relevance has your question to the topic, which is the Irish passport office and whether it is contravening Irish citizens' constitutional freedom of travel?

MagicSean

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Other than attempting distraction, what relevance has your question to the topic, which is the Irish passport office and whether it is contravening Irish citizens' constitutional freedom of travel?

I was asking a question out of curiosity. If it offends you that much just read the first part my post instead.

Cavehill Red

k_mac wrote: »

I was asking a question out of curiosity. If it offends you that much just read the first part my post instead.

I'm not offended. I just feel you're attempting to derail the topic in hand.
The state cannot claim that it is impossible to transfer the responsibilities of the Passport Office to another agency, be it state, semi-state, PPP or private, because it has often previously shifted responsibilities for tasks between all of the above types of entity.
All that's required is the same degree of DFA oversight that exists currently.

MagicSean

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I'm not offended. I just feel you're attempting to derail the topic in hand.
The state cannot claim that it is impossible to transfer the responsibilities of the Passport Office to another agency, be it state, semi-state, PPP or private, because it has often previously shifted responsibilities for tasks between all of the above types of entity.
All that's required is the same degree of DFA oversight that exists currently.

What about training on the equipment it the passport offive uses? Surely they could argue that it takes time to train replacement staff.

Mister men

k_mac wrote: »

They are doing their regular work. They are refusing to work overtime. This is what is causing the backlog.

They are refusing to work overtime and yet they complain about not being able to make ends meet :pac:....Only in Ireland

Cavehill Red

k_mac wrote: »

What about training on the equipment it the passport offive uses? Surely they could argue that it takes time to train replacement staff.

They could argue any oul ****e they wanted.
The reality is that plenty of private companies exist across Europe who could do the job for a fraction of the cost. So once that evidence was placed in front of a judge, any such argument would quickly be dismissed.

Eliot Rosewater

Cavehill Red wrote: »

The reality is that plenty of private companies exist across Europe who could do the job for a fraction of the cost.

Yes! Notice how one of the threats Martin threw at the CPSU was that the government would outsource. Outsourcing was also threatened during the hospital cleaners action. Public service unions know they have got it easy working for the government. The fact that they oppose outsourcing shows they don't give a tuppenny damn about "fairness"; they're happily overcharging the taxpayer for services that, by their own indirect admission, could be done far more cost-effectively.


Thanks to donegalfella for demonstrating our right to travel, at least within the European Union.

Cavehill Red

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Thanks to donegalfella for demonstrating our right to travel, at least within the European Union.

Our right to travel is underwritten by article 40.3.3, in the constitution, as amended by the thirteenth amendment.
It extends to everywhere, not just the EU.
That right to travel within the EU is circumscribed by the Schengen agreement, to which us and Britain are not signatories.
So the law underwriting your freedom to travel is actually constitutional and not European.

Eliot Rosewater

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Our right to travel is underwritten by article 40.3.3, in the constitution, as amended by the thirteenth amendment.

I realize, I'm just not so sure it's as relevant as the EU rights we have. The constitution says: "This subsection shall not limit freedom to travel between the State and another state." I suppose you could read that as saying there is a theoretical right to travel it's protecting, but it doesn't explicitly say that. As in, its saying our freedom to travel cannot be limited by abortion issues, but it doesn't really say it can't be limited by other things.

The EU right we have under article 45 of the CoFR is more explicit in this regard - "Every citizen of the Union has the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States." As it stands we can't move freely because of the Union action.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Cavehill Red

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I realize, I'm just not so sure it's as relevant as the EU rights we have. The constitution says: "This subsection shall not limit freedom to travel between the State and another state." I suppose you could read that as saying there is a theoretical right to travel it's protecting, but it doesn't explicitly say that. As in, its saying our freedom to travel cannot be limited by abortion issues, but it doesn't really say it can't be limited by other things.

The EU right we have under article 45 of the CoFR is more explicit in this regard - "Every citizen of the Union has the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States." As it stands we can't move freely because of the Union action.

The constitution takes priority over other legislation, including European laws or articles.
40.3.3 states clearly that the freedom to travel outside the state is not to be limited.

ShamoBuc

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I heard somewhere that the passport office in Dublin has 4 printers for passport productions and 2 of them have been unoperational - for various reasons- for upwards of 3 weeks. If this is true outsourcing would be impossible surely. Were all 4 working I'm sure the passport process would be quicker. Again I cannot for the life of me remember where I heard it but if it were true management would have alot to answer for ( keeping it relatively quiet, not getting it fixed etc)

ardmacha

Whatever you think of the industrial action, it is not restricting the right to travel. The Irish State does not require you have a passport to leave the country, it is other States that require you have a passport to enter.

MagicSean

Cavehill Red wrote: »

The constitution takes priority over other legislation, including European laws or articles.
40.3.3 states clearly that the freedom to travel outside the state is not to be limited.

I thought the EU took priority over the constitution.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

MagicSean

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

So if the EU passes a directive which is against our constitution we can ignore it?

IrishTonyO

k_mac wrote: »

So if the EU passes a directive which is against our constitution we can ignore it?

Yes, or have a referundum to try and change our constitution. No law can have precedence over the constitution.

MagicSean

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Yes, or have a referundum to try and change our constitution. No law can have precedence over the constitution.

I knew I should have paid more attention in EU law.

gandalf

ardmacha wrote: »

Whatever you think of the industrial action, it is not restricting the right to travel. The Irish State does not require you have a passport to leave the country, it is other States that require you have a passport to enter.

It does require that you have a valid Irish ID to enter the country (if you are an Irish Citizen) so that is not accurate.

Eliot Rosewater

There was a latter into The Examiner this morning about this very issue, rather coincidentally.

Letters wrote:

AS EU citizens we all have a right to move freely within the 27 member states. This right is enshrined in article 45 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union — "Every citizen of the union has the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the member states."

The work-to-rule undertaken by the CPSU in the Passport Office prevents many Irish people traveling to and from the other EU countries and is, as a result, a most serious contravention of our fundamental rights.

The Government, as the protector of its citizens, should put a stop to this breach of our liberty immediately.

Online version, edited down from the print version above.