Make left lane overtaking legal

Velocitee

Throwing this out there for consideration.

Recently, it seems we have a lot more awareness on our roads of our "Keep left unless overtaking" rules

I always abide by this. We all know there is a certain attitude where some drivers using the overtaking lane take it upon themselves to stay there and block other motorists (especially if the following motorist is travelling above the limit).

Personally, I think people are responsible for their own speed and it's dangerous to block other drivers (as they get enraged and end up making stupid moves like dangerous overtaking.) As far as I'm concerned I'll never have to see them again once I'm overtaken unless they're crashed into something further along the road.

Which brings me to my point. Why not make left lane/driving lane undertaking legal? You will always get people who won't move back into the driving lane and end up causing an accident by holding up the overtaking lane (be it they think they're driving correctly or they're trying to police other drivers).

Cars have left hand mirrors now. (I learned to drive in a 91 Nissan Micra which was manufactured without a left-hand mirror. I imagine the "overtake on the right only" law is a throwback to cars not having left hand mirrors.)

Yes there'd be a brief period where people would need to adjust to this but I doubt it would be huge. I can see this improving traffic flow also as people are not trying to keep in right hand lane forever when filtering etc.

You can overtake either side in the US, why not here?

Anan1

I could see it causing accidents, TBH. WHat happens when numpty in the overtaking lane of the motorway realizes they're almost at their exit but are being undertaken by a stream of cars travelling much faster than they are?

Mimikyu

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Cionád

Captain Morgan wrote: »

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+ 1, and enforcement too!

Anan1 wrote: »

WHat happens when numpty in the overtaking lane of the motorway realizes they're almost at their exit but are being undertaken by a stream of cars travelling much faster than they are?

Happens every day on the M50 as it is, especially on the (newer) northern section.

eth0_

The standard of driving in Ireland is atrociously poor as it is without introducing something like this. Watching out for morons on the road is hard enough, i'd rather not have the element of surprise of some idiot undertaking me.

Cookie_Monster

a huge number of people (me included when the idiots won't move) do it anyway. I think it should be allowed.

Anan1

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

a huge number of people (me included when the idiots won't move) do it anyway. I think it should be allowed.

I do it myself, but I wouldn't legalize it - IMO, it's just too dangerous. Go figure.;)

Velocitee

That's a valid point Anan1, there would be an adjustment period.

IMO this is Numpty's own fault, I deem our motorway dual carriageway signange excellent (which is where this would come into play).

If Numpty can't see exit 7 in 2km, 1km, 500m, and can't get across the road within 2 km, Numpty shouldn't be driving.

It already happens where people can't get into the left lane to come off motorways in time. They should do what we all have to do, get off the next exit and double back.

Anan1

Velocitee wrote: »

IMO this is Numpty's own fault, I deem our motorway dual carriageway signange excellent (which is where this would come into play).

If Numpty can't see exit 7 in 2km, 1km, 500m, and can't get across the road within 2 km, Numpty shouldn't be driving.

It already happens where people can't get into the left lane to come off motorways in time. They should do what we all have to do, get off the next exit and double back.

All well and good, but what numpty will in fact do is go for it regardless and cause an accident. At the moment, other drivers tend to yield to numpty as they're aware that they shouldn't be undertaking - change the rules and IMO the scene is set for accidents.

af_thefragile

Leftlane overtaking is downright dangerous!
If someone is trying to overtake you in the leftlane, you won't see them cuz they're in your blindspot, you decide to change lanes, you move left and crash into the car overtaking you.

Almost happened to me once. It was good my mate spotted the car and told me to stop.

thebiglad

Velocitee wrote: »

Recently, it seems we have a lot more awareness on our roads of our "Keep left unless overtaking" rules

Which motorway are you using?

The number of times (including yesterday) you will see someone enter a clear (3 lane) motorway and go set up in the middle lane - therefore I have 2 choices carry on in lane 1 or move to lane 3 to pass them - guess which choice I took.

thebiglad

af_thefragile wrote: »

Leftlane overtaking is downright dangerous!
If someone is trying to overtake you in the leftlane, you won't see them cuz they're in your blindspot, you decide to change lanes, you move left and crash into the car overtaking you.

Almost happened to me once. It was good my mate spotted the car and told me to stop.

You have a blind spot on both sides - so does your argument apply to people passing on the right too?

Always a quick glance over the shoulder or maintaining a general awareness of what is going on around you will help - a car will be coming up on you for a while before it enters the blind spot.

Velocitee

Anan1 wrote: »

All well and good, but what numpty will in fact do is go for it regardless and cause an accident. At the moment, other drivers tend to yield to numpty as they're aware that they shouldn't be undertaking - change the rules and IMO the scene is set for accidents.

Don't get me wrong I do see you're point, I just think if you could overtake in any lane, people would be more aware of their road positioning/ those around them (because they'd have to be, especially when coming off and will have prepped for it well in advance.) In my opinion, I can only see this being a problem initially, as people get used to it, it would go away.

Twin-go

My wife got pulled over by the Gardai for undertaking in the left lane.:rolleyes:
She undertook 3/4 car that were stuck behind a paddy wagon and the paddy wagon.:eek:

They pulled her over and read her the riot act. They said it was dangerous etc but when she pointed out that they were holding up traffic in the overtaking lane doing less than 90km/h in a 100km/h zone and was also driving dangerously he got a bit flustered.

He started going on about how all police cars are calorbrated every week so she MUST have been speeding and as police they can stay in the overtaking lane if they wish etc etc.

In the end she didn't get a ticket.

So undertaking should not be legalised but overtaking lane hoggers should get fine and points.

garimac

I am driving in the left (driving) lane, and travelling up a hill.

The cars in the overtaking lane are being held up by car at the front that is not moving over to driving lane, but also does not have the power to drive at required speed to avoid blocking traffic.

Am I ok to drive past this queue on the left lane?

Velocitee

thebiglad wrote: »

You have a blind spot on both sides - so does your argument apply to people passing on the right too?

Always a quick glance over the shoulder or maintaining a general awareness of what is going on around you will help - a car will be coming up on you for a while before it enters the blind spot.

Exactly, you should always look over your shoulder and check your mirrors, I usually do this twice before changing lane. The look over the shoulder is especially effective (motorcyclists call this "the lifesaver" I believe)

Anan1

Velocitee wrote: »

Don't get me wrong I do see you're point, I just think if you could overtake in any lane, people would be more aware of their road positioning/ those around them (because they'd have to be, especially when coming off and will have prepped for it well in advance.) In my opinion, I can only see this being a problem initially, as people get used to it, it would go away.

In a world without incorrigible numpties you'd be right. Of course, in a world without incorrigible numpties drive left overtake right would work just fine.;) One huge advantage of our current system is that slower-moving traffic is closer to the exits. I think our real problem here is one of awareness & enforcement, rather than a problem with the existing rules themselves.

Velocitee

garimac wrote: »

I am driving in the left (driving) lane, and travelling up a hill.

The cars in the overtaking lane are being held up by car at the front that is not moving over to driving lane, but also does not have the power to drive at required speed to avoid blocking traffic.

Am I ok to drive past this queue on the left lane?

There are three instances where you can overtake in a left lane, slow moving traffic in the right lane is one of them, However traffic would have to be nearly stopped in the right lane before you could do this, I imagine you would get booked for this if you were driving faster

opinion guy

Hmmm whether its legal or not its what people do anyhow. I think its incumbent upon anyone changing from overtaking lane to normal lane to assume that someone might be undertaking them and to look over shoulder etc everytime they change lane.

Anan1

garimac wrote: »

I am driving in the left (driving) lane, and travelling up a hill.

The cars in the overtaking lane are being held up by car at the front that is not moving over to driving lane, but also does not have the power to drive at required speed to avoid blocking traffic.

Am I ok to drive past this queue on the left lane?

Legally, no. I would, but i'd be keeping my eyes wide open and making liberal use of the horn. The last thing you want is one of those halfwits changing lane into you because they didn't know you were there. You also need to plan future lanechanges well in advance, as undertaking tends to sap the goodwill of those being undertaken.

Gophur

Velocitee wrote: »

There are three instances where you can overtake in a left lane, slow moving traffic in the right lane is one of them, However traffic would have to be nearly stopped in the right lane before you could do this, I imagine you would get booked for this if you were driving faster

There's no way traffic in the RH lane dictates the speed of traffic in the LH lane.

If the traffic in the RH lane is going at 90kph, the traffic in the LH lane is perfectly entitled to travel at up to the legal speed limit.

Anan1

Gophur wrote: »

There's no way traffic in the RH lane dictates the speed of traffic in the LH lane.

If the traffic in the RH lane is going at 90kph, the traffic in the LH lane is perfectly entitled to travel at up to the legal speed limit.

Back to the Rules of the Road for you.;)

Velocitee

Anan1 wrote: »

In a world without incorrigible numpties you'd be right. Of course, in a world without incorrigible numpties drive left overtake right would work just fine.;) One huge advantage of our current system is that slower-moving traffic is closer to the exits. I think our real problem here is one of awareness & enforcement, rather than a problem with the existing rules themselves.

Good point. Looks like the majority think legal left lane overtaking is a bad idea and would rather the "drive left, overtake right" be enforced.

JHMEG

Anan1 wrote: »

Back to the Rules of the Road for you.;)

RoR is a guidebook. What does the statue book have to say about it?

JHMEG

Statue Book wrote:

(4) Notwithstanding paragraph (3) of this bye-law, a driver may overtake on the left—


(a) where the driver of the vehicle about to be overtaken has signalled his intention to turn to the right and the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after having overtaken, to go straight ahead or to turn to the left,


(b) where the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after having overtaken, to turn left at a road junction and has signalled this intention,


(c) in slow-moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver's right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle.

"slow-moving" and "slowly" are not specifically defined, so I would say it's any speed slower than you, up to the limit (of course)

af_thefragile

thebiglad wrote: »

You have a blind spot on both sides - so does your argument apply to people passing on the right too?

Always a quick glance over the shoulder or maintaining a general awareness of what is going on around you will help - a car will be coming up on you for a while before it enters the blind spot.

Yeah, but you don't expect people to be overtaking you on the left. You're more careful moving into the right lane than you're into the left lane.
And you see more with a glance to your right than you do with a glance to your left.

And I agree with the poster who said the right lane should be the overtaking lane and everyone else should drive in the left lane.

And why would you need to overtake someone anyway unless they're driving at a ridiculously slow speed in which case they'ld be in the left lane most of the times?...

Velocitee

af_thefragile wrote: »

Yeah, but you don't expect people to be overtaking you on the left.

I don't mean this as an insult but are you learning to drive? When Driving, ALWAYS expect the unexpected.

privateBeavis

I was driving on the M50 earlier in the week and i came up behind a guy hogging the fast lane with the laft lane empty. I probably would have overtaking on the left except I was exiting the next exit so I just went into the left lane and stayed behind him. But a guy in a much greater hurry then drove up right behind the guy in the fast lane obviously to try force the guy into the left lane. Anyway the guy in front did move over into the left lane to let him by but then proceeded to move back into the fast lane even though there were no cars in front of him to be overtaking... so wasn't as if he "forgot" to move back into the left lane he just "liked" driving in it more or something!!
Thats when you need a overtake in the left lane rule!!

af_thefragile

Velocitee wrote: »

I don't mean this as an insult but are you learning to drive? When Driving, ALWAYS expect the unexpected.

Yup... I know, It was my fault there too. I've got a Ford Puma, so the visibility out of it is a bit poor and I didn't look over my shoulder before I decide to move left.

But still I think overtaking on the left is wrong. It'll really put off a less experienced driver, make them nervous and more prone to mistakes as now they've gotta be looking out for people trying to overtake them from the left as well...

Gophur

Anan1 wrote: »

Back to the Rules of the Road for you.;)

Not relevant.


(Look at the RoR section on "stopping" distances, for example, to see how they cannot be applied.)

Anan1

JHMEG wrote: »

RoR is a guidebook. What does the statue book have to say about it?

"the driver of the overtaking vehicle shall pass the overtaken vehicle on the right side of the overtaken vehicle and shall not close in towards the left until the passing has been completed..."

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1937/en/si/0222.html#zzsi222y1937a5

5.(1)c.

Anan1

Gophur wrote: »

Not relevant.


(Look at the RoR section on "stopping" distances, for example, to see how they cannot be applied.)

Hang on till I get my head around this. The stopping distances in the RotR are incorrect, so the rules are not relevant - is that what you're trying to tell us?

Gophur

NO, just don't take what is in the guide as absolute fact. It's a Guide, not Law.

I used the term "for example", in case you did not notice!)

opinion guy

af_thefragile wrote: »

Yeah, but you don't expect people to be overtaking you on the left. You're more careful moving into the right lane than you're into the left lane.
And you see more with a glance to your right than you do with a glance to your left.

Actually i think you see way more with a glance to your left - you don't have to look as far round to see what you need to see. And you should be equally careful moving left or right

Anan1

Gophur wrote: »

NO, just don't take what is in the guide as absolute fact. It's a Guide, not Law.

I used the term "for example", in case you did not notice!)

No, what you said was:

Gophur wrote: »

There's no way traffic in the RH lane dictates the speed of traffic in the LH lane.

If the traffic in the RH lane is going at 90kph, the traffic in the LH lane is perfectly entitled to travel at up to the legal speed limit.

When I pointed you towards the RotR, you said:

Gophur wrote: »

Not relevant.

I've already posted what I think is the relevant section of the Road Traffic Act, so what i'd like to know is how you can still maintain that overtaking on the left is legal?;)

Gophur

Anan1 wrote: »

..............
I've already posted what I think is the relevant section of the Road Traffic Act, so what i'd like to know is how you can still maintain that overtaking on the left is legal?;)

You referred me to the Rules of the Road, which are only a guide, and a not very accurate one.

The section of the Road Traffic Act you referred to is from 1937, in case you didn't notice.


My over-riding rule is to drive safely. My secondary concern is to stay within the Law.

If some idiot is travelling at a speed well below the legal limit, in the RH lane, I am perfectly entitled to pass on his/her left hand side. I'm not stupid enough to believe I can do this without taking necessary precautions, I am, however, sufficiently experienced to be able to do it safely, as I have done so many times.

It's not me that requires Education, in this case, I'm fully aware of what I can and cannot do, and what is Legal and illegal to do.


Speaking of illegality? Can anyone show me evidence of a successful prosecution of a motorist for either driving in the overtaking lane unnecessarily, or of passing slower-moving RH Lane traffic in the LH lane?

Anan1

Gophur wrote: »

My over-riding rule is to drive safely. My secondary concern is to stay within the Law.

If some idiot is travelling at a speed well below the legal limit, in the RH lane, I am perfectly entitled to pass on his/her left hand side. I'm not stupid enough to believe I can do this without taking necessary precautions, I am, however, sufficiently experienced to be able to do it safely, as I have done so many times.

It's not me that requires Education, in this case, I'm fully aware of what I can and cannot do, and what is Legal and illegal to do.

That's all well and good, and I overtake on the left myself. What you still haven't backed up is your contention that undertaking is legal.

bazzachazza

privateBeavis wrote: »

I was driving on the M50 earlier in the week and i came up behind a guy hogging the fast lane with the laft lane empty. I probably would have overtaking on the left except I was exiting the next exit so I just went into the left lane and stayed behind him. But a guy in a much greater hurry then drove up right behind the guy in the fast lane obviously to try force the guy into the left lane. Anyway the guy in front did move over into the left lane to let him by but then proceeded to move back into the fast lane even though there were no cars in front of him to be overtaking... so wasn't as if he "forgot" to move back into the left lane he just "liked" driving in it more or something!!
Thats when you need a overtake in the left lane rule!!

Did you read this topic fully before commenting, If so you would have learnt that there is no such thing as a FAST lane.

Your education and the nations starts here.

Gophur

Anan1 wrote: »

That's all well and good, and I overtake on the left myself. What you still haven't backed up is your contention that undertaking is legal.

You may pass on the LH side, in three circumstances, including if the traffic on your Right is moving slowly.

There is enough ambiguity in that to contend that my argument is right.

I solicited an opinion from the Garda Press office, who verified my argument and stated I was perfectly entitled to drive in the LH lane up to and including the Legal speed limit, regardless of what speed anyone in the RH lane is doing.

r3nu4l

I got my full licence in Ireland and one week later I hired a car when I was on holiday in Florida. I witnessed something there that made me realise how dangerous it can be to allow both overtaking and undertaking on the same stretch of road.

On a five lane highway there was a guy traveling about 55 mph, I was behind him. A pick up moved past us both on the left and pulled into our lane, right at the same time that a guy pulled into the same space, from the right. They were both obviously checking their rearview mirrors at the same time or were both in each other's blind-spot. The upshot was both vehicles slammed off one another and both careered back into the lane they had come from causing other traffic to swerve to avoid them. Both continued to drive on as if nothing had happened...I was expecting a Hollywood style shoot-out

It was 'funny' but demonstrated how if we were allowed to undertake as well as overtake then we'd have yet another factor to consider when driving and be mindful of idiots moving in from both sides of us.*




*wouldn't be a problem if everyone obeyed the 'keep left' standard of driving...but if they did, we wouldn't need undertaking at all Catch-22!

thebiglad wrote: »

You have a blind spot on both sides - so does your argument apply to people passing on the right too?

Always a quick glance over the shoulder or maintaining a general awareness of what is going on around you will help - a car will be coming up on you for a while before it enters the blind spot.

All well and good but it's much easier to see clearly over your right shoulder on Irish roads than it is your left, especially in a full car, looking over your left shoulder means looking past your passenger and rear-seat passengers.

Theta

Anan1 wrote: »

That's all well and good, and I overtake on the left myself. What you still haven't backed up is your contention that undertaking is legal.

Did JHMEG not just quote where it is legal?

My reading of what he quoted is basically if the driver in the right is going below the speed limit and you wish to do the speed limit then you are entitled to over take on the left.

Now it gives no specfic figures so I would assume this is open to interpretation.

rosser44

privateBeavis wrote: »

Anyway the guy in front did move over into the left lane to let him by but then proceeded to move back into the fast lane even though there were no cars in front of him to be overtaking... so wasn't as if he "forgot" to move back into the left lane he just "liked" driving in it more or something!!

This kind of behavoir absolutely infuriates me!!! I drive th M4 a lot and see this kind of thing all the time - 9 or 10 o'clock at night on an pretty empty motorway. I'm driving along in the LH lane and come up on a car travelling in the RH lane doing 110kph or so. I move into the RH lane and the car in front ignores me!! Was behind a punto for 9 miles before they pulled over once (and not up their bumper either but my intentions to pass were clear) - looked in the rearview mirror to see them pull back into the RH lane!!! :mad:

IF YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO BEHAVE WHILE DRIVING ON A MOTORWAY THEN YOU SHOULDN'T BE DRIVING ON ONE!!!!

rant over

Anan1

Theta wrote: »

Did JHMEG not just quote where it is legal?

My reading of what he quoted is basically if the driver in the right is going below the speed limit and you wish to do the speed limit then you are entitled to over take on the left.

Now it gives no specfic figures so I would assume this is open to interpretation.

That's JHMEG's reading of it too

JHMEG wrote: »

"slow-moving" and "slowly" are not specifically defined, so I would say it's any speed slower than you, up to the limit (of course)

I'd say good luck with that in court, it seems clear to me that 'slow-moving' means the likes of stop-start traffic.

KamiKazi

Velocitee wrote: »

The look over the shoulder is especially effective (motorcyclists call this "the lifesaver" I believe)

Does exactly what it says on the tine

Gophur

Anan1 wrote: »

That's JHMEG's reading of it tooI'd say good luck with that in court, it seems clear to me that 'slow-moving' means the likes of stop-start traffic.

So, Anan, are you stating, unequivocally , that the traffic in the RH lane determines the maximum speed of traffic in the LH lane?

And, if so, at what point does "slow" come into being?

10kph?
15kph?
20kph?
24kph?
37kph?


Can anyone show me one single case where a Court Case had to determine this?

Mimikyu

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Atomic Pineapple

Calling for undertaking to be made legal is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

If driver education on the matter was drastically improved and overtaking lane hoggers and undertaking was properly policed and punished then the motorways would run a lot smoother than by relaxing the rules!

JCDUB

I've said on here before that I drive from Ballymun to Blanch every morning on the m50 and spend all the journey undertaking reprobates who are unable to observe the rules of the road.

I have no qualms with passing people in the left hand lane or the middle lane as long as I'm within the speed limit, which I am.

So long as people keep driving in the wrong lane I'll keep undertaking them, and good luck to the garda who tries to stop me, I'll have my day in court for that one.

The amount of people who for some reason think once they're in the middle lane they can drive at whatever speed they want regardless of traffic around them is astounding.

Middle lane does not grant you carte blanche to drive at 80k in a 120 zone!!!

Gophur

draffodx wrote: »

Calling for undertaking to be mad legal is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

.............!

"made legal" I presume?

It's perfectly legal in many locations around the world, and not the hazard you may think.

It frees up motorway space and allows free progress, unlike this God-forsaken hole where ever and any body seems to think he's a lesser being if driving in the LH lane.

znv6i3h7kqf9ys

Motorways should have 3 lanes period

metzengerstein

should be legal ,fact is theres too many morons on our roads and too many cars not too drive in the overtaking lane ,and i dont think people will ever get how to use the motorway properly anyway

the worst for me is people in the overtaking lane doing well under the limit or b**stards who come up behind you while your doing the lilmit and tailgate you to get you out of the way (i never move for these people ) its not a fast lane you cant go over the limit on it ,its an overtaking lane all 3 lanes have the same speed limit