General Election

ocokev

If there was a general election called for the near future, i know i would find it difficult to listen to anyone from the 2 main parties if they call to my house.
My girl-friend says she is going to tell them this and that and argue with them but all i want to do is just want to shut the door in their faces.
Who is right and will anyone be brave enough to canvass for FF?

average_runner

FG are no different to FF. Labour are just rubbish.

If FF stick to their guns on the PS they win alot more votes than they would of before xmas.

But whoever get's in it be more of the same.

LoanShark

To canvass for Fianna Fail is a Fcuking nightmare, I did in the last local election for a family who was running as a candidate,The amount of people who gave out to me was unreal,One man had to stand between me and his wife because she was going off the head at me...
As I said to them all I'm canvassing for my brother and not for FF but that fell on deaf ears..

For what it is worth after the election I vowed never to vote for FF again because of sh!t that happened over the election, But if I was in the polling booth, I think my hand would shake if I was to vote away from them..
Your politics is in your blood and it's quite hard to move from it..(my thoughts anyways!)

ocokev

LoanShark wrote: »

Your politics is in your blood and it's quite hard to move from it..(my thoughts anyways!)

Agree... Its kind of the Devil you know politics, the last time I voted independant, it gave me as much satisafaction as voting could give.

jimmycrackcorm

LoanShark wrote: »

As I said to them all I'm canvassing for my brother and not for FF but that fell on deaf ears..

I gave out to a FF candidate for the last council elections and he said the same - I told him he should have joined a different party and he was there as a FF candidate and not as a person who just happened to have some loose affiliation with FF.

TBH i would not vote for FG/LAB because I do not hear them stand up and publicly state that the PS needs to take the financial pain. FF are actually taking hard decisions that are out of favour with many but need to be made. Much as I despise the mess they've made, I've no confidence that FG/LAB would do the same.

Actually I think they probably would if elected simply because there is no other choice, however because they don't stand up and say it now then it's a case of better the devil you know.....

Idbatterim

in short the above poster hit the nail on the head! Labour being in Goverment would be a nightmare scenario! and if FG dont take a side one way or another on the PS dispute, I will vote FF again! I will also vote FF if FG dont propose to reform the PS!

Laminations

LoanShark wrote: »

As I said to them all I'm canvassing for my brother and not for FF but that fell on deaf ears..
)

You were canvassing for a FF candidate, you cannot separate the two. If your brother was in England and joined the BNP would you see that as tarnishing his reputation?Would you canvas for him then?

LoanShark wrote: »

Your politics is in your blood and it's quite hard to move from it..(my thoughts anyways!)

It doesn't have to be, it could be and should be guided by your brain, you should pick what you think is the best candidate, not who your mammy and daddy think is the best. This is the problem with Irish politics and why we are where we are

Idbatterim wrote: »

in short the above poster hit the nail on the head! Labour being in Goverment would be a nightmare scenario! and if FG dont take a side one way or another on the PS dispute, I will vote FF again! I will also vote FF if FG dont propose to reform the PS!

FG have plenty of policy documents for you to judge them on. And what side exactly is FF taking in this PS dispute? Is it the side of 'aggrevate the PS workers by giving pay rises to bankers and reversing pay rises for the high paid'? Is it the side where they refuse to meet for negotiations?

flynnlives

LoanShark wrote: »

Your politics is in your blood and it's quite hard to move from it..(my thoughts anyways!)

See this nonsense is the problem with this country! politics is not in your blood ffs! some misplaced loyalty to gombeen idiots who havent a clue about the real world is

sceptre

LoanShark wrote: »

Your politics is in your blood and it's quite hard to move from it..(my thoughts anyways!)

Platelets, red blood cells, white blood cells and a handy bit of oxygen. That's mostly it. One of the things that quite worries me about this country is that so many people will always vote the same was as their parents did, despite (or often for the lack of) any opinions of their own.

ocokev

sceptre wrote: »

One of the things that quite worries me about this country is that so many people will always vote the same was as their parents did, despite (or often for the lack of) any opinions of their own.

And if you go back to why our fore fathers voted in such a way it is because a majority of their locality was on one side or the other in the civil war, especaially in the country. So the way people are voting now goes back to what side someone was on during the civil war and not current political or economic issues.

granite man

ocokev wrote: »

And if you go back to why our fore fathers voted in such a way it is because a majority of their locality was on one side or the other in the civil war, especaially in the country. So the way people are voting now goes back to what side someone was on during the civil war and not current political or economic issues.

And we wonder why the modern state (EU province) of Ireland is in the mess its in now. Its time for change. 20th Century rhetoric and mindset are not the answer to the problems we face now. New problems require new solutions, we have the internet now for communication lets get talking about how the people can get together and solve these problems. Its blatently obvious the old school have nothing new to offer. Talk, compromise, resolve and take this country forward as a progressive nation, not a dinosaur from our oppressed past. Lets do it now before the problem is too large to comprehend never mind solve.

hinault

A local FF council candidate called to my door last time around looking for my vote.
I know the guy, he's a good local rep.

However he was immediately on the defensive when I raised NAMA issues etc, saying "I am a party member etc and I have to be loyal to the party".

In fairness to him, he did say that the FG candidate running for election was excellent and worth considering for a vote.

granite man

hinault wrote: »

A local FF council candidate called to my door last time around looking for my vote.
I know the guy, he's a good local rep.

However he was immediately on the defensive when I raised NAMA issues etc, saying "I am a party member etc and I have to be loyal to the party".

In fairness to him, he did say that the FG candidate running for election was excellent and worth considering for a vote.

Just to keep the status quo in place, there's always next time. This country (province) is on a downward spiral until we move on.

IrishTonyO

Have to say God help any member of the Green Party that calls to my door for the next election! For the first time ever I gave them my number 1 vote last election, mainly as I was told they would not go into government with Fianna Fail, and also I thought they would be honest! How wrong I was, I feel totally betrayed and lied to by them and if they dare darken my doorstep, they will wish they hadn't. I have a list in my mind already of everything I want to say to them.

sceptre

ocokev wrote: »

And if you go back to why our fore fathers voted in such a way it is because a majority of their locality was on one side or the other in the civil war, especially in the country. So the way people are voting now goes back to what side someone was on during the civil war and not current political or economic issues.

Indeed. Unfortunately that's quite true, at least for some people. Hence there are some people voting for particular parties by default and they don't even know why, nor is there anyone still alive to tell them why. The scary part for me is that I think there might be a lot of them. I once went out with someone like that and my jaw dropped to the floor when she said that by default she'd vote for party X (as it happens it was FF but it doesn't matter which it was) unless there was some big reason not to. And I suspect some people don't even get that far.

Happily I can guarantee that there's been no-one in my family who's done that for at least three generations and before that it's the generation that was voting in the original Treaty plebiscite and I can only hope that they thought about which way they were voting then rather than following some local noise bucket because he promised them their own turnip for following his lead. I have but one relative in electable politics and I assume his children might well vote for his party or at least consider it as they'd be voting directly for him if they did. Then again I also know that he's not in the same political party that his father was in so I suspect I have an entire extended family on both sides who have never followed the generational voting like blind sheep at any time in the past 100 years. I'm guessing and hoping that there are plenty of other similar families out there in this country who are also not acting like blind lemmings, have blood consisting of platelets, red blood cells, white blood cells and a handy bit of oxygen. If there are enough of us, eventually, then, well I guess that'd be kind of cool.

Flicking back to the OP's post though and considering "who is right", well you both are really I reckon. Two different tactics from different folks. You're both annoyed with two parties in particular. As it happens they're the two main parties. One of you wants to give the canvassers what for and the other wants to just tell them to shove it. Personally I suggest one of two things. First option is to take it in turns, every second go depending on who's calling. The second option is to decide between you which is the better tactic to register your disgust. Odds are good that you won't have the actual candidates calling. Lots of ground to cover and they themselves can cover only so many houses. If it's a residential area, practised campaigners will cover both sides of the street while sending their candidate down the middle to be called to particular doors if needed. So you'll be dealing with the volunteer help rather than the candidate. Do you think the volunteer help will let the candidate know about the angry list you gave them verbally? Probably not. Maybe but probably not. So you could save time by saying you're not interested in what that party is selling and close the door. If the candidate calls, of course it's a good time to express your anger by engaging. Having said that, if you want to be sneaky, you engage a lot with the canvassers from the party you don't like, ask lots of questions, waste their time and vote for the other guy. If you wanted to be sneaky about it. Up to you. The important thing of course is that the two of you don't have an argument about it caused by the fecking canvassers who only want your vote. The two of you rely on each other, the canvassers only care about you ever few years, the politicians, well, depends on how cynical you are. Some are always better than others. That's pretty much my entire view on the original question I reckon:)

Personally I don't engage with canvassers much unless they're actually interesting to talk to. Many of them don't know much about the issues they're selling. Of those that do, they'll never send back your negative feedback anyway so it's as easy to send a letter or rotting fish through the post if you prefer. If canvassers call for a candidate I don't like I don't want to engage with them. I tell them I'll think about it or just tell them there's no chance. If they ask why, that's an invitation for me to let them have my full and frank opinion. If canvassers call for a candidate I do like, I'll tell them they have the vote, don't need to waste further time on me and friendlily to bugger off and get a lot more. This was the case in the last local elections for example. I do a little journalistic work amongst other things so I don't canvass or publicly endorse, no-one pays me to do that and the pittance arguably pays me not to. The last time I canvassed at all was for an election I was running in so it seemed OK and advisable to do it then.

Oh, I missed the other question: will anyone be brave enough to canvass for Fianna Fail. Absolutely. Two reasons mainly. Some canvassers really believe that their party is the best and do it without any personal gain for themselves. They'll come out regardless. Then there are also the people who will view the current troubles as a temporary thing and will happily invest their time and take whatever's thrown at them because when the tide turns the next time out or the time after that, they're the people who will be known to have helped out in the bad days and will reap the benefit in the good days of getting nominated for council seats and all that. Especially if they were the only people doing it, more notice taken of their volunteering when times get good for beleaguered and hated party X (which in this case happens to be FF). Always plenty of them too. So short answer is yes. There are some who reckon that tide will turn back them before the next election if they can hang on long enough of course.

MaceFace

I hate to say it but I think my vote will be going to FF (but I will probably just not vote).

Politics in Ireland is completly broken - right to the core. We need a massive overhaul but until the general masses understand this and demand it, it ain't going to happen.

Anyways:
Labour: They wouldn't last 12 months in power because their support comes from the the working class who think that everyone with more money than them in this country should be shot. Either they follow the policies of their support which will result in another election in 12 months where FF get back in and not only have to sort the mess they created, but also the mess Labour created. Primetime last night showed that Burton hasn't got a clue about how to run a country, let alone a corner shop. I reckon if you went over to her place it would smell like boiled cabbage.

FG: LOL. What a bunch of idiots. Ireland has been through the biggest frack-up in its history, and the main opposition party are not taken serious. That bogger at the helm is no different than Clowen, Sweary Mary or Tash-man. All boggers who should never have left the farm. What exactly do they stand for?

SF Haha. Socialist scum whose policies belong to the 50's.

FF You know what you get. Jobs for the boys, backhanders, slow and steady, pretend the past never happened. Bark with no bite. A few smart cookies there and with discontent beginning to appear from the back, there is always hope of something better. In the meantime, we get some of the residual benefits that were intended for the mates of FF. IMO all we need is a coup in FF and we have the possibility of an excellent government (but that ain't going to happen as a new leader will require a new election which they will lose to those who love the smell of boiled cabbage)

IrishTonyO

MaceFace wrote: »

I hate to say it but I think my vote will be going to FF (but I will probably just not vote).

Well that will really help. Hope when you don't vote you stop complaining on here, because if you don't vote you have no right to complain about anything

murphaph

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I gave out to a FF candidate for the last council elections and he said the same - I told him he should have joined a different party and he was there as a FF candidate and not as a person who just happened to have some loose affiliation with FF.

TBH i would not vote for FG/LAB because I do not hear them stand up and publicly state that the PS needs to take the financial pain. FF are actually taking hard decisions that are out of favour with many but need to be made. Much as I despise the mess they've made, I've no confidence that FG/LAB would do the same.

Actually I think they probably would if elected simply because there is no other choice, however because they don't stand up and say it now then it's a case of better the devil you know.....

Agree entirely and am really disgusted that FG aren't taking a hard public stance against the unions. A FG/LAB coalition would not be good right now. If FG stood up to the plate and nailed their colours to the mast, I would vote for them in the hope they would win an overall majority. Now is the time for strong government and leadership, not coalitions with labour involved! If they don't, then sadly FF look like the only party capable of making the cuts required (even though they largely caused this bloody mess). What a sh!tty decision to make.

Eliot Rosewater

sceptre wrote: »

Many of them don't know much about the issues they're selling.

Indeed. I remember during the general election when I was only 17 listening to an aged canvasser - he was at least 40 - and realizing, "I know more about the governance of this country than he does."

Lately I've been giving a lot of thought to why people join political parties, especially people my age in University. You see, I wouldn't describe FF or FG as having any overall ideology or stance that a young person would think "I believe in that". The central trust of the parties seems to be a kind of populism whereby you insult as few people as you can and ruffle as few feathers as possible so as to remain palatable to the greatest number of voters. So why do young people join them?

I'm starting to think that many people consider politics a game, like soccer. You pick an arbitrary side - Man United or Chelsea; Fianna Fail or Fine Gael - and then support that side to the utmost of your ability even though theres actually not that much separating them. The political discussion becomes dominated by relativity minor details because to debate the really major issues would be to admit that the side you are fighting is really the same as the one you are supporting.

ocokev

FF were in charge and royally fuc*ed it up, and are now blaming the opposition for not saying or doing anything. The PDs (RIP) and The Greens
got into bed with FF and they both were given poison chalices.
FG knew they had no hope and were falling apart during the good times, but even they know that forming a government and having to clean up the mess would be big trouble so they kept quiet and didnt push for an election. Since FF & FG sing from the same hymn sheet I dont see any point in voting for either. I would like to think that FG would do something different but hearing an angry Enda Kenny doesent appeal to me either, we need calm heads not someone loosing it.
Labour, same as FG.
SF.
Independant Jackie Healy REA? In it for them selves.

MaceFace

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Well that will really help. Hope when you don't vote you stop complaining on here, because if you don't vote you have no right to complain about anything

The only complaining I have been doing is against the barage of negativity that comes from the masses against the usual hype-lines appearing in the papers.

Do you think that if I vote FF that I have a right to complain about what FF are doing?

Anyways, I thought we lived in a democracy and freedom of speech was a key tenant of that. Maybe there is more wrong with this country than I thought.....

LoanShark

Laminations wrote: »

You were canvassing for a FF candidate, you cannot separate the two. If your brother was in England and joined the BNP would you see that as tarnishing his reputation?Would you canvas for him then?

Local elections are about local politics!, My Brother ran with FF in the good times and decied to stick with them in the bad.
It's irrelevant who he ran with,He's my brother and I did it for him!

IrishTonyO

LoanShark wrote: »

Laminations wrote: »

You were canvassing for a FF candidate, you cannot separate the two. If your brother was in England and joined the BNP would you see that as tarnishing his reputation?Would you canvas for him then?

Local elections are about local politics!, My Brother ran with FF in the good times and decied to stick with them in the bad.
It's irrelevant who he ran with,He's my brother and I did it for him!

So if he ran for a party you don't agree with you would still canvas for him!! That is one of the things that is wrong with politics in this country, people vote for people and not for the policies and principles they stand for.

LoanShark

flynnlives wrote: »

See this nonsense is the problem with this country! politics is not in your blood ffs! some misplaced loyalty to gombeen idiots who havent a clue about the real world is[/QUTE]

Yes of course you are right..I am talking nonsense... Supporting a party that is taking the steps to help this country get back on track..
And before you go on about "It was them who cause this mess etc.."
I'm not buying it, I agree that they are partly responsible but not soley!

We all took what we could get form the pot when times where good, some could afford to pay back and others knowingly took with no intention of paying it back..

LoanShark

IrishTonyO wrote: »

So if he ran for a party you don't agree with you would still canvas for him!! That is one of the things that is wrong with politics in this country, people vote for people and not for the policies and principles they stand for.

I said Local Elections, His policies were good and his intentions were for the community..If he ran for a party that I didnt agree with, Well that would be something I take into consideration!...

IrishTonyO

LoanShark wrote: »

I said Local Elections, His policies were good and his intentions were for the community..If he ran for a party that I didnt agree with, Well that would be something I take into consideration!...

Local elections are elections and politics, and as a Fianna Fail member and candidate his policies are Fianna Fail policies, not his own, and if they are not, he was misleading the public.

Drumpot

I dont believe the problems are the parties or the ideals they generally stand for .

The problem isnt even necessarily the politicians (not all of them anyways) . .

The biggest problem is the general attitude to politics and the culture that has gripped them all .... Populist politics is more important then substantial progress for the longer term good of the country. .

Many politicians probably don't have the balls to actually say what they think or instill their principles into the position, simply because it highlights inadequacy's of the system or in other members.

The good of the country should ALWAYS come first, even at the expense of popularity within a party or with the general public . . If people dont like it, they can vote in a party that gives them everything they wish (at the expense of long term prosperity) . .

If the truth be properly discussed (which many dont like admitting), the culture of Ireland and its voters is poisoned with greed and self interest . . The whole political system should be changed to make the main motivation of our parties to be in the best interests of the country . .

I believe our government mirrors the majority of the population of this country . . Its really hard for us all to accept this . . The first part of rehabilitation is accepting you have a problem and accepting your role in the problem . . Irelands electorate is still pointing fingers at everybody else but themselves . .

LoanShark

MaceFace wrote: »

I hate to say it but I think my vote will be going to FF (but I will probably just not vote).And this will make a difference how???

Politics in Ireland is completly broken - right to the core. We need a massive overhaul but until the general masses understand this and demand it, it ain't going to happen. I Agree totally....

Anyways:
Labour: They wouldn't last 12 months in power because their support comes from the the working class who think that everyone with more money than them in this country should be shot. Either they follow the policies of their support which will result in another election in 12 months where FF get back in and not only have to sort the mess they created, but also the mess Labour created. Primetime last night showed that Burton hasn't got a clue about how to run a country, let alone a corner shop. I reckon if you went over to her place it would smell like boiled cabbage.

The thought of JB being in power makes me have sleepless nights!


FG: LOL. What a bunch of idiots. Ireland has been through the biggest frack-up in its history, and the main opposition party are not taken serious. That bogger at the helm is no different than Clowen, Sweary Mary or Tash-man. All boggers who should never have left the farm. What exactly do they stand for?

OH Yes, anyone outside of Dublin should never be allowed to be in a prominant position in politics??

SF Haha. Socialist scum whose policies belong to the 50's.

Agreed..

FF You know what you get. Jobs for the boys, backhanders, slow and steady, pretend the past never happened. Bark with no bite. A few smart cookies there and with discontent beginning to appear from the back, there is always hope of something better. In the meantime, we get some of the residual benefits that were intended for the mates of FF. IMO all we need is a coup in FF and we have the possibility of an excellent government (but that ain't going to happen as a new leader will require a new election which they will lose to those who love the smell of boiled cabbage)

Yes, Back Handers,Jobs for the boys Blah, Blah, Blah..This whole B-Sh!t, it's sad to think that some people cant make a decent argument without bringing up all that crap..
However I do agree that a cul in FF will expose some good talent!

You all say that my statements are what is wrong with politics in Ireland!
Another problem with politics in Ireland is that People in Dublin forget that there is another 25 counties that need representation aswell..So, F%ck Dublin Politics cause it know's (or cares) shag all about what is happening outside of it!

LoanShark

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Local elections are elections and politics, and as a Fianna Fail member and candidate his policies are Fianna Fail policies, not his own, and if they are not, he was misleading the public.

Right....You obviously have no idea how local politics works, So my discussion with you will now end..

Tim Robbins

You could always have some brown envelopes at hand and give them to the FF'ers when they call around.

IrishTonyO

LoanShark wrote: »

Right....You obviously have no idea how local politics works, So my discussion with you will now end..

Thank you, I will take that as a submission

LoanShark

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Thank you, I will take that as a submission

Not a submission, Just me being the bigger man and walking away!

Liam Byrne

LoanShark wrote: »

For what it is worth after the election I vowed never to vote for FF again because of sh!t that happened over the election, But if I was in the polling booth, I think my hand would shake if I was to vote away from them..
Your politics is in your blood and it's quite hard to move from it..(my thoughts anyways!)

This makes absolutely no sense!

You "vowed", having seen the "sh!t" they've done, and yet you might "shake" at the moment of voting and change your mind against the best interests of the country ?

Actually, scratch that - that's precisely what FF as a party does too.

It's impossible to say anything more about vows and convictions without appearing to be too personal, so I'll leave it at that.

Liam Byrne

LoanShark wrote: »

And before you go on about "It was them who cause this mess etc.."

I'm not buying it, I agree that they are partly responsible but not soley!

No-one's suggesting that they were solely responsible, as it too the global downturn to expose their policies quicker and more blatantly than would have otherwise happened, but it would have still happened.......

I would actually argue that - bad and all as the current climate is and will be for years - we're LUCKY that it happened now, and not another 10 years down the line where FF had made us even more dependent on the unsustainable route; ideally, of course, it would have happened 10 years AGO, before Ahern & Cowen and their mates in the Financial Regulators and Anglo ran riot over our finances.

But to listen to most FF mouthpieces on TV/radio, you'd swear it was ONLY the global downturn that caused the crase.

It was headed for disaster anyway, because of FF policies.....the only question was when and how hard......

Do you remember the "soft landing" optimism - that was about the housing market BEFORE the global economy crashed, and that was optimism/spin at best.....not a global recession in sight then, just our own warnings, which FF chose to ignore.

LoanShark

I take your point..I dont fully blame them for the mess this country is in..
But I stand by what I said,
Would you vote for FG now? NO, I would not.
Labour? Not a hope.
Sinn Fein? No Fcuking way..
As our area does not have a Green politican, I cant comment..
Independants? I have voted for in the past (Not my number 1) but I have voted..

Get personal if you want, Opnions are like Asses we all have one and some have bigger ones than others!

LoanShark

Liam Byrne wrote: »

No-one's suggesting that they were solely responsible, as it too the global downturn to expose their policies quicker and more blatantly than would have otherwise happened, but it would have still happened.......

I would actually argue that - bad and all as the current climate is and will be for years - we're LUCKY that it happened now, and not another 10 years down the line where FF had made us even more dependent on the unsustainable route; ideally, of course, it would have happened 10 years AGO, before Ahern & Cowen and their mates in the Financial Regulators and Anglo ran riot over our finances.

But to listen to most FF mouthpieces on TV/radio, you'd swear it was ONLY the global downturn that caused the crase.


It was headed for disaster anyway, because of FF policies.....the only question was when and how hard......

Do you remember the "soft landing" optimism - that was about the housing market BEFORE the global economy crashed, and that was optimism/spin at best.....not a global recession in sight then, just our own warnings, which FF chose to ignore.

I agree with you..I'm not being patronising, But I agree with you...
I cant add anything more to this or take form it only on the "it was headed for disaster" comment, FF policies, They were not the main fault, Personal greed and keeping up with the Jones's was also a cause.

Liam Byrne

LoanShark wrote: »

I take your point..I dont fully blame them for the mess this country is in..

But you do blame them ?

And still you go on about "not a hope" for EVERYONE ELSE ? All the parties that DIDN'T land us in this mess ?

And you'd consider The Greens, except they're not in your area ? Why ? A reward for propping up your favourite party ?

LoanShark wrote: »

Get personal if you want, Opnions are like Asses we all have one and some have bigger ones than others!

Nope. Not interested in landing myself in trouble and getting banned.

So I'll phrase it this way......a "vow" (as you said you did in the first line of your post) is meant to be binding, so you cannot really say that you "vowed" and then renege on that for absolutely no reason.....if so, IMHO, the word "vow" never really applied, and I would argue was only added to make the post appear more credible.

Give me a valid reason for reneging, and I'll say OK - things and circumstances change. But reneging when absolutely nothing has changed means there was never a vow.

MaceFace

LoanShark wrote: »

You all say that my statements are what is wrong with politics in Ireland!
Another problem with politics in Ireland is that People in Dublin forget that there is another 25 counties that need representation aswell..So, F%ck Dublin Politics cause it know's (or cares) shag all about what is happening outside of it!

Don't take my comments about being anti-anyone but Dublin.
What I mean is that many current politicians are what I (as a Dub) would consider to be a bogger. Take Cowen, standing in the Dail with his hands in his suit jacket pocket. He is representative of Ireland of the 60's.
There are plenty of fine politicians from outside Dublin - Pat Rabitte, Joe Higgins, Pat Carey, Dermot Ahern, Mary Harney, Micheal Martin, and many many more. We may not agree with their policies, but they are very good politicians and bring a lot to the table.

Unfortunately though, the likes of Cowen, Coughlan, O'Dea, Kenny, and Healy-Rae fall into a different category. They are country people with country minds, who don't think big enough to be running any country. They may be brilliant for their local constituency, but that's about it!
I would even include Joan Burton on the list of small minded old fashioned "country" folk even though she was born in Dublin.
Small mind and small ideas.

Someone on the Commuting Forum made a good argument about the poor infrastructure in Dublin being the fault of certain people who still think in country town terms. They just don't understand how a major city should function and realise how much power they have in actually getting things done.

sceptre

LoanShark wrote: »

Another problem with politics in Ireland is that People in Dublin forget that there is another 25 counties that need representation aswell..So, F%ck Dublin Politics cause it know's (or cares) shag all about what is happening outside of it!

Frequently one of the main problems with Irish politics is that many people in each of the 26 counties forget that there are another 25 counties in addition to their own. Including government ministers who promise to fiddle a few things for their county as a result of being given ministerial office. It's endemic of course, to an extent they do it because they see a high proportion of the other chancers at the cabinet table doing the same thing. Of course that travels down as far as local politics. Also ministers in recent years have not only managed to say they'd do right by their area but the odd one has even said that they're deliberately not going to do much for particular areas as opposed to others because they themselves didn't get much of a personal vote in that area. Blinkerism is in no way restricted to Dublin. Not by a long shot.

It tends to remind me of that Blackadder 3 quote: "toffs at the top, plebs at the bottom and me in the middle making a fat pile of cash out of both of them". Obviously it's not always cash, votes are often as good as cash. It's almost like a blinkered non-organised conspiracy between politicians and voters. And it's endemic. Or at least a paddywhackery version of semi-locallateralised voodoo dripdown economics. And no-one in power seems to be willing to do anything about it. Why should they... after all they're the beneficiaries. And that's one of the failings of our in-school and out-of-school education system. The persistence of mé-féinism and the extreme lack of basic deductive reasoning. Obviously fertilised in part by people frequently voting like their parents did for little reason. We really should be able to throw off this post-colonialism sticking it to the man. After all, we may be an adolescent country compared to many but as we're independent and collectively in control of our own destiny, we're sticking it to ourselves. And that... is plain idiocy and quite popular idiocy at that.

Liam Byrne

MaceFace wrote: »

Unfortunately though, the likes of Cowen, Coughlan, O'Dea, Kenny, and Healy-Rae fall into a different category. They are country people with country minds, who don't think big enough to be running any country. They may be brilliant for their local constituency, but that's about it!

The "you could go for a pint with Bertie" syndrome ? He's a Dub.....

MaceFace

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The "you could go for a pint with Bertie" syndrome ? He's a Dub.....

What?

LoanShark

Tim Robbins wrote: »

You could always have some brown envelopes at hand and give them to the FF'ers when they call around.

Its comments like this that a stupid person makes,Just to feel important!

Liam Byrne

MaceFace wrote: »

What?

You were talking about "boggers" voting because of cronyism and (supposedly) being "one of the lads", and you left out the useless but "one of the lads" Ahern.

You trying to pretend that it's "country people with country minds" was insulting.

MaceFace

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You were talking about "boggers" voting because of cronyism and (supposedly) being "one of the lads", and you left out the useless but "one of the lads" Ahern.

You trying to pretend that it's "country people with country minds" was insulting.

Liam, can you seriously stop this crap of talking previous posts of mine and completely misrepresenting what I have said.

How the hell did you think I was talking about ""boggers" voting because of cronyism", or " being "one of the lads"?

I would be nicer about it if I thought you made a genuine mistake but you have done this numerous times and it gets very tiresome having to deal with responding to your irrelevant attacks rather than actually dealing with the topic at hand.

I don't give two hoots if you think that "country people with country minds" was insulting because I stand over it. There are too many people in politics who would be fantastic local politicians but are just plain crap on the world stage.

LoanShark

Liam Byrne wrote: »

This makes absolutely no sense!

You "vowed", having seen the "sh!t" they've done, and yet you might "shake" at the moment of voting and change your mind against the best interests of the country ?

Actually, scratch that - that's precisely what FF as a party does too.

It's impossible to say anything more about vows and convictions without appearing to be too personal, so I'll leave it at that.

I had to go back over the posts to see what you were talking about and i found this one..
My reason for vowing not to vote for them was in a personal capacity not on the government, I will not go into details, But I have my PERSONAL reasons,Not on what they have done whilst in power..

Liam Byrne

MaceFace wrote: »

How the hell did you think I was talking about ""boggers" voting because of cronyism", or " being "one of the lads"?

That was what I understood by your phrase "country people with country minds" - politicians that are voted for because of "sorting out" local things, or attending local funerals or helping out the locals, or going for a pint with them.

If I was wrong in this interpretation, then I have no problem in apologising, however you might enlighten us as to what you meant by the phrase.

I assumed - given the way you used the phrase - that it was meant in a derogatory/fashion ? And it genuinely is a mystery as to what you meant if you did not mean the above.

MaceFace wrote: »

I don't give two hoots if you think that "country people with country minds" was insulting because I stand over it. There are too many people in politics who would be fantastic local politicians but are just plain crap on the world stage.

I agree 100%, and I would be of the opinion that Ahern is one of them; people said they voted because his persona implied he was "one of the lads" that you could "go for a pint with".

So....what did you mean by "country minds", and what did "country" have to do with it that might not apply to a city politician in Cork or Galway ?

Liam Byrne

LoanShark wrote: »

I had to go back over the posts to see what you were talking about and i found this one..
My reason for vowing not to vote for them was in a personal capacity not on the government, I will not go into details, But I have my PERSONAL reasons,Not on what they have done whilst in power..

So - if I read this correctly, you're putting a personal issue over the good of the country ?

It's your vote, I guess.

LoanShark

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So - if I read this correctly, you're putting a personal issue over the good of the country ?

It's your vote, I guess.

Well, Yeah... However I did also say that "My hand would shake if I moved my vote away"

I guess I'll wait until the general election two years to make my mind up!!

But anti FF'ers like you will still Harp on to anyone who cares to listen about that shower in government and how they destroyed this country Blah, Blah, Blah..because groups like you will never be happy!

Liam Byrne

LoanShark wrote: »

But anti FF'ers like you will still Harp on to anyone who cares to listen about that shower in government and how they destroyed this country

So I state facts, and I've gone from being neutral to hating FF because of what they've done (even prior to the current crisis)......what's wrong with that ?

And at least I'll vote for the good of the country.

LoanShark wrote: »

Blah, Blah, Blah..because groups like you will never be happy!

:rolleyes: Ridiculous comment.

If I have a capable, ethical and uncorrupt Government, I'll be happy.

P.S. I'm not a group :rolleyes:

ocokev

LoanShark wrote: »

I guess I'll wait until the general election two years to make my mind up!!

I dont think we will be waiting 2 years for the next general election.
Come Autumn FF will be fighting to remain in power.
Its only a reflection of the Government and the people that both are willing to put up with total political incompetiance, apathy and distrust from and with each other.
FF constantly argue that they are good enough to bring the country forward, well if they are confident of that fact then give us a general election, and let the people decide.
In my opinion both the public and private sector should have a country wide walkout,down tools for one hour to show disatisfaction with the government and opposition but most of all to show unity to each other.
If the people still vote them in again after all that, then so be it.

murphaph

I hate FF. I last voted for them in 2002 and even then it was because I feared Labour getting into power or a local SF head that looked like he had a chance.

However, the last thing I believe we need right now is a general election. We need to show the world a stable country that is prepared to work through it's problems. Anyway, FF helped create a large chunk of the problem so let them take the unpopular (but vitally necessary) decisions for a couple of years. To be fair to this shower of crooks, I'm amazed they were prepared to make any unpopular decisions. I expected them to go the way of Greece.

I would like the current government to see out its term, tackling spending as much as possible and then I'd like to see them replaced for their previous sins. I think Ireland now desperately needs to change the way we run the country and apart from Amhran Nua I only see FG proposing anything approaching what we need, and even then it's not enough BUT it's a big start, so FG will get my vote at the next election if they keep their proposals for serious political reform (abolition of Seanad, reduction to 146 TDs, partial implementation of list system etc.).

I seincerely believe that until we address the governance of the country (moving away from a system that promotes gombeenism) that we will stumble from crisis to crisis, but now is not the time to call a general election. It sends out the wrong messages to those who are lending us the money to keep the country afloat.