The Summer Tour Thread.

outwest

healy wilkonson,horan
flan croinin
court/buckley
poc cullen
doc tuohy
ferris maclaughin
wallace jennings
heaslip/henry
tol/boss
rog/sexton/ keatly
wallace, darce,
bod, earls
bowe, horgan
trimble carr
murphy kearney.

that a 32 man i think should travel to the sh

play half the 1st 15 with half of the inexperience, and chance it for the second test. try out 30 players for the summer tour, see what their like, then play the best performing players in the last game,

castie

Bit harsh to drop Best and reddan from that.

castie

castie wrote: »

Bit harsh to drop Best and reddan from that.

I like Reddan, but he's not been playing great, he has struggled to find the form that he had at Wasps, and the "step" that Whitaker must have taught him is crushing his game. He is also not incredibly different from O'Leary.

Boss is playing excellently for Ulster though, and I would like to see him regain a spot.

We need another Stringer esque 9 coming through, someone who provides quick ball on a plate for the out half every time. The way the game has gone, we need to have players in each position with different playing styles.

nacho libre

Well, unfortunately given the limit pool of players we have to choose from compared to other countries we are unlikely to have that luxury. So we will always struggle in one or two positions.

teednab-el

Can someone explain why Peter Stringer has been completely dropped from the Irish squad? He is still IMO not past it and could have offered alot yesterday in the Scotland match if he was introduced. He would have alot of experience. He couldnt have been any worse than what TOL played. I cant understand why Kidney cant keep him on the panel at the very least.

castie

Suppose he cant take a reserve SH over 2 talented starters.

teednab-el

castie wrote: »

Suppose he cant take a reserve SH over 2 talented starters.

TBH he would be a better choice than the other two SH's.

castie

Yes but he would need to be getting picked over O leary at munster first before it was even an option.

twinytwo

everyone needs to up their game. Abs should be a test of how good we really are

irishbucsfan

A midweek team I'd love to see is:

Wilkinson
Cronin
Ross
Tuohy
Cullen
McLaughlin
Jennings
Henry
Boss
Keatley
Trimble
Wallace
Earls
Horgan (or Carr... or J Murphy)
Murphy/Kearney (whoevers not starting)

accensi0n

twinytwo wrote: »

everyone needs to up their game. Abs should be a test of how good we really are

Were the France and Scotland matches not a test of how good we really are?

Co45

outwest wrote: »

healy wilkonson,horan
flan croinin
court/buckley
poc cullen
doc tuohy
ferris maclaughin
wallace jennings
heaslip/henry
tol/boss
rog/sexton/ keatly
wallace, darce,
bod, earls
bowe, horgan
trimble carr
murphy kearney.

that a 32 man i think should travel to the sh

play half the 1st 15 with half of the inexperience, and chance it for the second test. try out 30 players for the summer tour, see what their like, then play the best performing players in the last game,

Healy, Court
Flannery, Cronin, Best
Ross, Buckley
O'Connell, Cullen
O'Callaghan, Casey
Ferris, McLaughlin
Wallace, Jennings, O'Brien
Heaslip, Henry
O'Leary, Boss
O'Gara, Sexton
Earls, Fitzgerald, Conway
Wallace, D'arcy
O'Driscoll, McFadden
Bowe, Horgan, Trimble
Kearney, Murphy

irishbucsfan

If Casey is brought on the tour ahead of Tuohy or Ryan then I'm going to fly down to New Zealand and slap Kidney in the face. Especially Tuohy he's been excellent this year.

On his form this season Casey's a poor man's Mick O'Driscoll.

PhatPiggins

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If Casey is brought on the tour ahead of Tuohy or Ryan then I'm going to fly down to New Zealand and slap Kidney in the face. Especially Tuohy he's been excellent this year.

On his form this season Casey's a poor man's Mick O'Driscoll.

For me Touhy can do everything Casey can but for 80 minutes and he has age on his side. Casey has been poor by his standards this season. I always wonder if the many posters who call for his inclusion in squads have seen him play other then in the HC this season.

I think Neil Best still has something to offer the national team. The enforcement of the break down will make the jackel type player less and less important. I think physical heads up ball carriers like Best/Ferris/Henry/O Brien etc will flourish under the new interpretations.

James downey might be one to take a look at. Offers something different to the Darcy/Wallace/McFadden mould that we currently have. Plays a similar style to JDV.

outwest

wat has conway done to justify gonig to newzealand australia, if he playes in half of leinster games for the rest of season fine, but he has one senior game,

fitz is out for season is he not, why bring an player thats not fit, let him do a full preseason in leinster,

thomond2006

outwest wrote: »

wat has conway done to justify gonig to newzealand australia, if he playes in half of leinster games for the rest of season fine, but he has one senior game,

fitz is out for season is he not, why bring an player thats not fit, let him do a full preseason in leinster,

I agree on Conway. IMO he'll need to start 3-4 games and play exceptionally well to justify a call up.

Fitzgerald has said he won't be back until next season, so he won't tour.

On Conway, I'm a big fan, but we will damage him along the exact same lines as Tait at England if we bring him forward too soon.

He's not big enough, strong enough or experienced enough.

Let the lad grow into the boots.

remwhite

I think it's now or never in terms of blooding young players. The Irish are painfully conservative when it comes to getting them in.

I genuinely wouldn't care if we lost the summer tests if a load of youngsters were involved.

It's obvious there are a few future internationals in that 20s team so why not grab a small handful and bring them with. Even if they don't play I'd rather have someone up and coming in the camp and learning than some senior player who realistically won't be picked for the world cup.

Outside backs will survive the physical step up, if anything I think their lack of bulk would make them less prone to injury.

They should have an age limit of 26 for the Churchill too.

Fionn Carr is nearly top try scorer in the Magners League is spite of playing for Connacht who are permenantly rooted to the foot of the table. It's time to see if he can sink or swim. I think he deserves his shot.

The sad reality is however that the squad for the summer will be virtually identical to the one picked for the 6N.

outwest

i agree. its too late to do that tho, world cup is less then 15 test away, cant be trying out any of the under 20's


ireland will pick the same squad for the summer tours because certain players have irfu contracts.
fionn should get his shot, maybe in ther maoiri game,

livremont was a genious, dropped most of the lod players 2 years ago. played alot of yuong players, within a year, the go to newzealand and win. he know has a squad for the world cup, ireland just about have a 22 that if needed could perform at the worldcup, that why so many have 70 or more caps, once your in your in,

only differnece between kidney and eos is kidney won the grand slam, other then that similat attitudes when it comes to picking the team,

chupacabra

outwest wrote: »

livremont was a genious, dropped most of the lod players 2 years ago. played alot of yuong players, within a year, the go to newzealand and win. he know has a squad for the world cup, ireland just about have a 22 that if needed could perform at the worldcup, that why so many have 70 or more caps, once your in your in,

France also have the added benefit of a huge professional league with loads of teams for young players to get constant game time in. How in the world can you think Ireland can compete with that? We are doing really well to even have a 22 that can compete at the highest level. Some peoples expectations are way too big

Co45

Deleted User wrote: »

On Conway, I'm a big fan, but we will damage him along the exact same lines as Tait at England if we bring him forward too soon.

He's not big enough, strong enough or experienced enough.

Let the lad grow into the boots.

He doesn't necessarily have to start any tests just bring him along to train with the squad and get a feel. Perhaps a 10min cameo at the end of the tour. Conway is going to be a very big player for us in years to come, I feel hes almost ready to break through and could be ready for the World Cup if given the chance. Cheika needs to play him though. If we were in the SH he would probably already be playing super 14 a la James O'Connor.

bamboozle

Co45 wrote: »

He doesn't necessarily have to start any tests just bring him along to train with the squad and get a feel. Perhaps a 10min cameo at the end of the tour. Conway is going to be a very big player for us in years to come, I feel hes almost ready to break through and could be ready for the World Cup if given the chance. Cheika needs to play him though. If we were in the SH he would probably already be playing super 14 a la James O'Connor.

i agree i'd bring him, Ruddock and Dominic Ryan along for the experience. They've over a year to further develop. I wonder if EOS has the youthful energy of Heaslip and Kearney in the last world cup squad would it have added some life to the team...then again even if selected for the WC squad EOS wouldnt have played them.

we've 15-18 tests to bring a number of players up to speed, the likes of Court, Ross, Henry, Touhy, SOB, McLaughlin, Ruddock, Conway, Cronin will all benefit from being involved in the squad for the next 18 months.

Co45

Co45 wrote: »

If we were in the SH he would probably already be playing super 14 a la James O'Connor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRJtCrpEf-I

He's not ready, I've watched him playing for over 20months now. Give him a chance to grow into his body first. He's 18 years old, and has 3 years of natural growth ahead of him, thats before he starts on the rugby diet and weights regime.

I'd rather we have him able to play incredible rugby from 22-30.

EDIT: Also, the U20's have their own competition this summer. They're a great team, and need to stay together as a team

outwest

kidney shouldnt be bringing ryan or conway into the irish squad until they play for thier provinces, it spits in the faces of other players who play top class rugby week in week out, if conway was to go on tour whos place would he take, same with ryan, o halloran is another who could go on tour, but he only has a handful of starts for connacht this year.

james o conner played as an 18 year old becasue newzealand and south africa were looking at him too,

remember the under 20 only bet england this year because so many england player were with the clubs for the gp.

PhatPiggins

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRJtCrpEf-I

He's not ready, I've watched him playing for over 20months now. Give him a chance to grow into his body first. He's 18 years old, and has 3 years of natural growth ahead of him, thats before he starts on the rugby diet and weights regime.

I'd rather we have him able to play incredible rugby from 22-30.

EDIT: Also, the U20's have their own competition this summer. They're a great team, and need to stay together as a team

I dont see what a shoulder charge on a near stand still fly haly by one of the hardest hitters in the game says about a players readiness.

I wouldn't bring him because he hasn't shown enough at a decent level to prove he's good enough not because he's 18.

chupacabra

Conway should be nowhere near that summer tour. Let him go to the IRB junior world championships with his mates to experience what a proper international tournament is like. Rushing him in now will only damage him in the long run.

PhatPiggins

PhatPiggins wrote: »

I dont see what a shoulder charge on a near stand still fly haly by one of the hardest hitters in the game says about a players readiness.

I wouldn't bring him because he hasn't shown enough at a decent level to prove he's good enough not because he's 18.

I could've used the example of Tait and Henson as well.

The first thing that an opposition would want to do is to say "Welcome" to a player like Conway. And a hit / huge tackle is exactly how they do it.

Tait disappeared for years, went and played 7s, and was incredible at it, and only now, is finally getting some exposure back in England.

It can be so damaging for a player to be embarrassed / found out like this.

Again, Conway's 18 years old, he is not big enough yet to play on the Summer Tour. He will get there, but there is absolutely no rush, and we shouldn't feel the need to push him too hard.

The lad still has a lot to learn, and though he may learn a lot being the boot boy (essentially) for the team if he went on the tour, I'd much much prefer to see him stick with the U20s, and go and have a serious crack at the World Cup.

I would also much prefer to see Fionn Carr called up than Conway.

PhatPiggins

Deleted User wrote: »

I could've used the example of Tait and Henson as well.

The first thing that an opposition would want to do is to say "Welcome" to a player like Conway. And a hit / huge tackle is exactly how they do it.

Tait disappeared for years, went and played 7s, and was incredible at it, and only now, is finally getting some exposure back in England.

It can be so damaging for a player to be embarrassed / found out like this.

Again, Conway's 18 years old, he is not big enough yet to play on the Summer Tour. He will get there, but there is absolutely no rush, and we shouldn't feel the need to push him too hard.

The lad still has a lot to learn, and though he may learn a lot being the boot boy (essentially) for the team if he went on the tour, I'd much much prefer to see him stick with the U20s, and go and have a serious crack at the World Cup.

I would also much prefer to see Fionn Carr called up than Conway.

Fair enough but you have to factor in the managements handling as well. Tait was handled badly by Robinson, who dropped him after that game. I think he was plenty ready when he made his debut but needed a run of games to prove himself. O Connor did some awful and brilliant stuff when Oz introduced him but Deans has stuck with him and he's easily good enough for international level now.

England have a really annoying habit of treating young backs badly of late. Tait/Allen/Geraghty have all been mismanaged in my book.

Kidney seems to be far more patient with young players he believes in e.g. Sexton.

Again I wouldn't hold Conway back because of his age only on his performances.

p.s I agree with you on Carr who has done more then enough at provincal level to get a shot.

remwhite

Carr should get a crack ahead of Conway but Conway should get a crack ahead of Duffey, Dowling or Hurley. All of whom will probably tour.

Risteard

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Fair enough but you have to factor in the managements handling as well. Tait was handled badly by Robinson, who dropped him after that game. I think he was plenty ready when he made his debut but needed a run of games to prove himself. O Connor did some awful and brilliant stuff when Oz introduced him but Deans has stuck with him and he's easily good enough for international level now.

England have a really annoying habit of treating young backs badly of late. Tait/Allen/Geraghty have all been mismanaged in my book.

Kidney seems to be far more patient with young players he believes in e.g. Sexton.

Again I wouldn't hold Conway back because of his age only on his performances.

p.s I agree with you on Carr who has done more then enough at provincal level to get a shot.

I agree. I mean, age shouldn't really be a factor in selecting someone, it's their performances. So, if Conway for example manages to break into the Leinster first team right now, which I can't see personally because there are a lot of good players in Leinster, then yes, I would take him if his performances merited it.

Co45

As I have said repeatedly :
Conway is only 2lbs off Earls despite being shorter.

By all means comment on him not being experienced enough or his youth but in fairness his size isn't an issue.

outwest

carr is the one player who has played well all season, played well in the A games, scores trys for fun yet still is deemed good enugh for a call up to the squad,

horgan days are over, im not saying that, but kidney doesnt see him as an option, bring carr in let him get the experience, i feel ireland did miss a chance against fiji were alot of players should of got full games, if we lost fair enugh. their will be no experimenting in the summer because ireland think the have a shot of winning the games, we dont. i think ireland should give at a minimum 5 new caps in the summer, see how they do, only way we will fully know if their up for it or not.

macfadden carr, henry boss and toughy should start v newzealand or australia, caps v usa and canada proves nothing.

irishbucsfan

Co45 wrote: »

As I have said repeatedly :
Conway is only 2lbs off Earls despite being shorter.

By all means comment on him not being experienced enough or his youth but in fairness his size isn't an issue.

Size is an issue for both of those players in fairness. But at least Earls has had far more time to develop.

Conway's great, but he's done absolutely nothing to merit a place on the tour yet. When he's good enough to tour with Ireland he'll show it by performing (or at least just getting on the pitch) for Leinster.

I'd much rather see someone like Carr, who deserves the place based on his performances and not based on potential that he may or may not fulfill.

subfreq

outwest wrote: »

carr is the one player who has played well all season, played well in the A games, scores trys for fun yet still is deemed good enugh for a call up to the squad,

horgan days are over, im not saying that, but kidney doesnt see him as an option, bring carr in let him get the experience, i feel ireland did miss a chance against fiji were alot of players should of got full games, if we lost fair enugh. their will be no experimenting in the summer because ireland think the have a shot of winning the games, we dont. i think ireland should give at a minimum 5 new caps in the summer, see how they do, only way we will fully know if their up for it or not.

macfadden carr, henry boss and toughy should start v newzealand or australia, caps v usa and canada proves nothing.

I agree 90% but you can't play all the guys you mention in the last sentence against New Zealand or you'd be looking at a cricket score. It's going to be hard enough to get Sexton back up on the horse for these fixtures and when someone mentioned a concern about conway getting a hammering as a target they should really be worrying about Sexton. He's a great player but the big weakness for him I feel is his mental strength and nothing tests that more than 80 minutes of being smashed about and targeted by NZ back row forwards and the occasional crazy Nonu.

It would be a roasting to give out first caps en-masse in these games.

With the rule interpretation the way they are these games are going to be at a tempo that the Irish 'A' team will find hard to keep up with and I would hope Kidney plays strong teams.

Before the Welsh and Scottish games I really thought that beating theAB's in November was a realistic target but now I am not so sure.

The team slipped backwards over the last tournament and I don't think Kidney has much scope to experiment. Maybe the front row where Buckley should start all three tests and Cullen should get a go against top opposition but McFadden wouldn't add that much to the back line and Carr is really only an option if injuries open the door.

Co45

I believe the NZ game is very important as the team needs to beat them before the WC in order to put that ghost to rest. I'd want a full team for that.
But against Australia I think it was almost be to our detriment to beat them by showing all our cards and giving them time to improve their game against us for the WC. Would like to see a lot of experimentation here.

Co45

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Conway's great, but he's done absolutely nothing to merit a place on the tour yet. When he's good enough to tour with Ireland he'll show it by performing (or at least just getting on the pitch) for Leinster.

I'd much rather see someone like Carr, who deserves the place based on his performances and not based on potential that he may or may not fulfill.

I do apologise as I forgot about Carr and he would of been included in my squad otherwise.
Re : Conway, the fact is Cheika is under no pressure to start him for Leinster and barring injury wont. Cheika is leaving next season and doesn't need to develop. Ireland however do. The kid is going to be world class, let him train with the squad, give him every chance to be available for the World Cup should he get serious game time for Leinster next season. To be honest I think we should be doing everything possible to have this kid ready come World Cup time. An unknown quantity like that, with the serious pace he has could be very damaging.
He might not be ready come WC but what do we really lose not bringing him along? An older player who won't play barring a serious injury crisis misses out for one of the most exciting young talents in Irish rugby? big deal

siltirocker

remwhite wrote: »

Carr should get a crack ahead of Conway but Conway should get a crack ahead of Duffey, Dowling or Hurley. All of whom will probably tour.

WHAT!?! :eek: Duffy is playing the rugby of his LIFE!!! Also Hurley was been a revelation playing on the wing this year.

siltirocker

siltirocker wrote: »

WHAT!?! :eek: Duffy is playing the rugby of his LIFE!!! Also Hurley was been a revelation playing on the wing this year.

As much as I don't rate either of these players, they're in super form.

Carr, Duffy and Hurley are ahead of Conway in that regard.

But something that Co45 said there struck a chord, about Cheika not needing to build.

I think Cheika's motus operandi from day one was to build a squad that was capable of having a first class run at every competition they were involved in. And I think he's done just that, he's also given players chances to show their wares on many occasions. And it came good recently when the "A team" won the Magners League game without any internationals whatsoever.

I certainly wont believe that Cheika is now going to change this plan, and go all out in a blaze of glory. He will continue to give players a chance, if they deserve it, and that part is up to Conway himself...

anonymous_joe

Co45 wrote: »

I believe the NZ game is very important as the team needs to beat them before the WC in order to put that ghost to rest. I'd want a full team for that.
But against Australia I think it was almost be to our detriment to beat them by showing all our cards and giving them time to improve their game against us for the WC. Would like to see a lot of experimentation here.

Beating New Zealand is pretty much the one thing we need to do most of all.

Until we know we can beat any team, we'll never be able to genuinely move up a level.

outwest

3 or 4 games left in the season, muldoon recent form has him on plane to newzealand.

anyone else playing for a spot down under. a few who i thaught would def be going need a big game in the semi's

The Rooster

There's also the serious question of should we bring all of our first team?

Particularly O'Driscoll and O'Connell. Let them rest and get fully back to 100% fitness so they are more likely to be fit and ready for one last big shot at a run in the world cup. Or do we play for the now and target the win over the All Blacks?

Personally I'd definitely leave Drico at home and play Earls at 13. And depending on how others are, there'd be another 1 or 2 of the more aged/experienced that would probably benefit more from time off.

outwest

i think cullen and poc should have a go playing with each other.

hayes should stay home, give another prop a go.

bod will travel. gavin duffy is another who is in great form

Podge_irl

The Rooster wrote: »

Personally I'd definitely leave Drico at home

Never gonna happen.

i think cullen and poc should have a go playing with each other.

They did play together in the 6N. I'd be more interested in seeing Cullen and DOC tbh.

outwest

when does the squad get annonced.

TheTMO

outwest wrote: »

i think cullen and poc should have a go playing with each other.

hayes should stay home, give another prop a go.

bod will travel. gavin duffy is another who is in great form

1. Healy, Horan
2. Flannery, Cronin, Best
3. Buckley, Court
4. O'Connell, Cullen
5. O'Callaghan, Ryan
6. Ferris, Muldoon, McLaughlin
7. Wallace, Jennings, O'Brien (if he can make it)
8. Heaslip, Henry
9. O'Leary, Boss, Reddan
10. O'Gara, Sexton
11. Earls, Carr
12. D'arcy, Wallace
13. O'Driscoll, McFadden
14. Bowe, Trimble
15. Kearney, Duffy

Then I'd throw 2 youngsters into the mix just to travel along with the squad and get a feel.

Andrew Conway
Ruddock

as I reckon these two are probably the most exciting young players in the country right now.

outwest

conway wont travel, ireland have the world chapionships in the summer.

no way conancht will get that many gonig on tour. irfu will never allow it.

TheTMO

outwest wrote: »

conway wont travel, ireland have the world chapionships in the summer.

no way conancht will get that many gonig on tour. irfu will never allow it.

I don't want either player to actually play, I was thinking more along the lines of giving them experience like what was done with O'Driscoll, Earls, Fitzgerald, Ferris.

Also I really don't believe the IRFU have some kind of vendetta against Connacht and hope they don't become strong it makes no sense as a stronger Connacht means more profits for the IRFU and more quality players available to them.

sock puppet

TheTMO wrote: »

I don't want either player to actually play, I was thinking more along the lines of giving them experience like what was done with O'Driscoll, Earls, Fitzgerald, Ferris.

Also I really don't believe the IRFU have some kind of vendetta against Connacht and hope they don't become strong it makes no sense as a stronger Connacht means more profits for the IRFU and more quality players available to them.

Conway and Ruddock are going to the world championships though.

Podge_irl

Connacht supporters need to get over this IRFU conspiracy stuff. Kidney will pick whoever the hell he wants to pick for the tour and I imagine he'll pick the squad that he thinks are most likely to give him a victory over the ABs and Aussies.

TheTMO

sock puppet wrote: »

Conway and Ruddock are going to the world championships though.

Ah I completely read over that comment.

outwest

irfu conspiracy is all tru.

i remember hearing that when gattland was irish coach he had to fight to get brennan in the team, irfu didnt like him. hopefully times have changed.