France v England - Wilkinson dropped?

danthefan

According to Sky News he's out, along with Haskell, Deacon and Tait. Monye and Armitage have already been released back to their clubs, meaning Ashton, Tindall, Shaw, Moody, Flood and Foden will start.

edit - official team

15 Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
14 Mark Cueto (Sale Sharks)
13 Mike Tindall (Gloucester Rugby)
12 Riki Flutey (CA Brive)
11 Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints)
10 Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
9 Danny Care (Harlequins)
1 Tim Payne (London Wasps)
2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
4 Simon Shaw (London Wasps)
5 Steve Borthwick (Saracens, captain)
6 Joe Worsley (London Wasps)
7 Lewis Moody (Leicester Tigers)
8 Nick Easter (Harlequins)

REPLACEMENTS

16 Steve Thompson (CA Brive)
17 David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
18 Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers
19 James Haskell (Stade Francais)
20 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
21 Jonny Wilkinson (RC Toulon)
22 Mathew Tait (Sale Sharks)

thomond2006

I'm guessing that Worsley will be at 6?

Deacon is no surprise, given Shaw is available.

Payne
Hartley
Cole
Borthwick
Shaw
Worsley
Moody
Easter
Care
Flood
Ashton
Flutey
Tindall
Cueto
Foden?

Bar Tindall, all those changes are pretty good.

thomond2006

Deleted User wrote: »

Bar Tindall, all those changes are pretty good.

To be fair, the Flood, Flutey and Tindall axis was pretty effective last year. That was last year of course.

Maybe Johnson is worried about putting Tait up against Basteraud?

Ian_K

Really surprised by this but fair play to Martin Johnson, it's exactly what the team needed, Jonny was killing them

thomond2006

Ian_K wrote: »

Really surprised by this but fair play to Martin Johnson, it's exactly what the team needed, Jonny was killing them

I don't think he deserve any credit, he should have made these changes far earlier.

Aidric

danthefan wrote: »

According to Sky News he's out, along with Haskell, Deacon and Tait. Monye and Armitage have already been released back to their clubs,

All have underperformed in this years championships. Is that pressure I hear?

Judgement Day

Ian_K wrote: »

Really surprised by this but fair play to Martin Johnson, it's exactly what the team needed, Jonny was killing them

You're kidding aren't you? Jonny is/was the only player on the team capable of scoring any points. If this news is correct England haven't a hope in Paris as Flood couldn't hit a barn door with his kicking.

Scrum.com say team won't be announced before lunchtime. http://www.scrum.com/england/rugby/story/112808.html

As for Flood pressing hard for flyhalf position LOL - in his dreams, he should stick to bringing on the water.

Judgement Day

According to Sky Sports here: http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12321_6031366,00.html

Armitage is out, and no loss, with Foden to start. Monye gone through injury but he probably would have been dropped anyway. Decision NOT announced on Jonny yet and I can't see MJ ditching his buddy and the best player to ever wear the England shirt.

Acheron3

Flood couldn't hit a barn door with his kicking..

Foden is a decent place kicker and at least Flood can give them some go forward ball.

I'm a fan of Wilkinson's attitude and abilities but I think he's looked like a shell of himself this championship.

2040

Martin Johnson actually depresses me. By the end of the Scotland game England had a superior side than that which started. Wilkinson got a knock to the head apparently. Charlie Hodgson got a call up. So it's not as if MJ has fully realised where he's going wrong.

Who's the English backs coach by the way? And why is he still employed?

PhatPiggins

Judgement Day wrote: »

You're kidding aren't you? Jonny is/was the only player on the team capable of scoring any points. If this news is correct England haven't a hope in Paris as Flood couldn't hit a barn door with his kicking.

Scrum.com say team won't be announced before lunchtime. http://www.scrum.com/england/rugby/story/112808.html

As for Flood pressing hard for flyhalf position LOL - in his dreams, he should stick to bringing on the water.

Do you wear Johnny Wilkinson pajama's? JW is so far past it its painfull to watch. Granted he might bang over 12/15 points a game but he's strangling the backline with his ponderous decision making.

danthefan

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Do you wear Johnny Wilkinson pajama's? JW is so far past it its painfull to watch. Granted he might bang over 12/15 points a game but he's strangling the backline with his ponderous decision making.

Agreed, aside from his place kicking (and even that's not perfect) he's pretty much a joke of a fly half at the moment for England.

2040 wrote: »

Who's the English backs coach by the way? And why is he still employed?

Brian Smith, good question.

flutered

my 2 cents, england took wales on with a running game/team, they reverted to type for the next three games, surely the way to take on the italians was to run at them, not get involved in a war of attrition, mc gahan the munster coach proved that, it goes to show that like every other walk of life a coach has to learn their trade.

Stev_o

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Do you wear Johnny Wilkinson pajama's? JW is so far past it its painfull to watch. Granted he might bang over 12/15 points a game but he's strangling the backline with his ponderous decision making.

You could have Dan Carter in that English 10 jersey and they would still look as lethargic as they do now. Has nothing to do with the 10 and everything to do with the midfield which refuses to come up flat or infact do anything to give a 10 options. First ball Flood received against Scotland we turned to give a pass out wide only to fine his entire backline huddled together under the posts having tea. Flutey needs to go he's the one who sets the position for the rest of the backline and so far he's looked like the mercenary that he is.

LeeroyJones

It's a strange one I think. From an England point of view Flood MUST be called in for any sort of progress to be made with the team. It's a call that should have been made a while ago. For the sake of England's future 6 nations campaigns and world cup England need to make many changes ASAP and Flood is the main priority.

However , England will certainly lose to France if they try take on their backline. The only way England can win is by frustrating the French and play their boring brand of rugby and rely on Wilkos kicks. But if they did play this way and won it would do nothing for their progress.

So if England want to win against France they should go for Wilkinson, but if they want to advance and compete for some sort of silverware in the near future changes need to be made and they need to be changed ASAP

LeeroyJones

Confirmed team;

15 Ben Foden
14 Mark Cueto
13 Mike Tindall
12 Riki Flutey
11 Chris Ashton
10 Toby Flood
9 Danny Care

1 Tim Payne
2 Dylan Hartley
3 Dan Cole
4 Simon Shaw
5 Steve Borthwick
6 Joe Worsley
7 Lewis Moody
8 Nick Easter

Replacements: 16 Daivd Wilson, 17 Steve Thompson, 18 Louis Deacon, 19 James Haskell, 20 Ben Youngs, 21 Jonny Wilkinson, 22 Mathew Tait.

Judgement Day

It's just been confirmed on the BBC News, MJ has thrown Jonno to the wolves - may it be the rock that Johnson founders on. Worse still Borthwick will probably be OK to start! Now I have a real problem, I want England to win for genetic reasons and I want them to be beaten to show Jonno shouldn't have been dropped.

And yes I do wear Jonno's PJs and proud to do so, I have a set of BODs and ROGs too from the period when they were being written off.

Ah, Jonno on the bench so all is not lost. Now where's my Toby Flood voodoo doll?

Stev_o

It's 2008 all over again.


Still id rather Hape at 12 instead of Flutey.

leeroybrown

Flood should start ahead of Wilkinson but having him there won't fix any of England's attacking problems. It's been painfully obvious that the intent to play the kind of incisive game that some of their back players are capable of just wasn't there regardless of who was standing at out half.

Tyndall coming in is actually a positive thing for them because despite some of the limitations he has, he'll be able to make something happen in midfield that's definitely missing from their game right now. Assuming they're able to pass the ball to him that is...

Ian_K

Toby Flood offers so much more at 10 imo, his running game is very good, he's a much better passer and his goal kicking is a lot better than some people here are making out. He's one of the main reasons Leicester are top of the premiership.

Foden is a bit inconsistend but with him and Ashton there they could make something happen.Tindall is only there to take care of Basteraud, don't see him offering much else really

I'm surprised they got rid of Haskell, i'd have him at 8 instead of sticking with Easter who doesnt seem to offer much. Shaw for Deacon was always going to happen

thomond2006

It doesn't matter who is on the field if the coaches don't change how the English backline attack.

France by 15, although it wouldn't surprise if France put 40 on them to be honest.

Judgement Day, Flood is a better option than Wilkinson.

Podge_irl

There are far deeper problems with the English backline, and game in general, than Wilkinson. However, he has still been very poor and can hardly complain about being dropped. He deserved to go for that pass to Hartley that went ten foot in the air and straight into touch when they had an overlap alone. It was shocking.

corny

thomond2006 wrote: »

It doesn't matter who is on the field if the coaches don't change how the English backline attack.

France by 15, although it wouldn't surprise if France put 40 on them to be honest.

Judgement Day, Flood is a better option than Wilkinson.

I'd agree but i don't think the campaign against Wilkinson or some of the rubbish you read saying he's the sole cause of the problem is right. Flood will keep defenders more honest and create more but he's gonna need the help Wilkinson didn't get.

thomond2006

Stev_o wrote: »

It's 2008 all over again.

+1

PhatPiggins

leeroybrown wrote: »

Flood should start ahead of Wilkinson but having him there won't fix any of England's attacking problems. It's been painfully obvious that the intent to play the kind of incisive game that some of their back players are capable of just wasn't there regardless of who was standing at out half.

Tyndall coming in is actually a positive thing for them because despite some of the limitations he has, he'll be able to make something happen in midfield that's definitely missing from their game right now. Assuming they're able to pass the ball to him that is...

Tindall isn't too bad, can break the line and knows how to offload. More importantly he'll be more of a match for Basteraud then Tait.

England have named an attacking back three. Flood has great hands and if Tindall can stand up the French centres and off load to any of Ashton/Foden/Cueto(who all run good lines) there could be a ray of light for England.

Nukem

Thats a pretty strong backline. Little to late though, Foden should have been there since the word snap, likewise Ashton. Tindal is a funny one, very one dimensional player I always thought, great going forward but a bit suspect in defense - if the french put a dancing feet 13 in, he could really be shown up.

Still really annoyed at these selections

5 Steve Borthwick (Saracens, captain)
6 Joe Worsley (London Wasps)
7 Lewis Moody (Leicester Tigers)
8 Nick Easter (Harlequins)
16 Steve Thompson (CA Brive)

Com'on like, nothing to lose put in Lawes and see how the lad gets on. Steve Thompson was rubbish back in the day and is even worse now:D

thomond2006

Nukem wrote: »

Thats a pretty strong backline. Little to late though, Foden should have been there since the word snap, likewise Ashton. Tindal is a funny one, very one dimensional player I always thought, great going forward but a bit suspect in defense - if the french put a dancing feet 13 in, he could really be shown up.

Still really annoyed at these selections

5 Steve Borthwick (Saracens, captain)
6 Joe Worsley (London Wasps)
7 Lewis Moody (Leicester Tigers)
8 Nick Easter (Harlequins)
16 Steve Thompson (CA Brive)

I'd be interested to know who you would pick.

On Thompson, England (like Wales) are not blessed with many talented hookers. Many GP teams have NEQs as first choice. So there's not many to pick from to be fair.

I'd go with:

4. Shaw
5. Lawes
6. Worsley / Moody
7. Armitage
8. Dowson

PhatPiggins

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'd be interested to know who you would pick.

On Thompson, England (like Wales) are not blessed with many talented hookers. Many GP teams have NEQs as first choice. So there's not many to pick from to be fair.

I'd go with:

4. Shaw
5. Lawes
6. Worsley / Moody
7. Armitage
8. Dowson

I'd go with Lawes at 6, Moody at 7 and keep Easter at 8. Armitage would be penalised off the park under the new interpretation of the break down. The law changes are in Moodys favor who's not a ground hog but a great carrier and decent link man. Easter looks slow but is an intelligent player who does all the basics well and would add balance to the two firebrands.

I like Dowson but would start him on the bench. He can pretty much cover all three backrow positions and is a good impact player.

teednab-el

Again lads dont be suprised if you see the French folding against the English on Saturday. Over the last few years it has happened time and time again. The English have always had an advantage over the French and I believe that they will beat them on saturday. They have nothing to loose whereas the French are going for their first GS since 2004.

duckysauce

teednab-el wrote: »

Again lads dont be suprised if you see the French folding against the English on Saturday. Over the last few years it has happened time and time again. The English have always had an advantage over the French and I believe that they will beat them on saturday. They have nothing to loose whereas the French are going for their first GS since 2004.

would be nice but england will be destroyed the frogs are looking imense

thomond2006

teednab-el wrote: »

Again lads dont be suprised if you see the French folding against the English on Saturday. Over the last few years it has happened time and time again. The English have always had an advantage over the French and I believe that they will beat them on saturday. They have nothing to loose whereas the French are going for their first GS since 2004.

Yeah and France will be in highly motivated mode like they were against Ireland.

England haven't a prayer, no matter what team they put on the field.

After watching France play beautiful rugby against Italy, I want them to win the Grand Slam.

teednab-el

Besides them hammering us, they almost blew it against the Welsh. That performance didnt do it for me. Ok I agree France are playing prtty good so far but this will be a completely different game. You can nearly always depend on the Anglo Saxons to beat them. Remember 2007 RWC for example.

corny

They have a natural fear of the English. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if England beat them even though every logical thought in your head tells you they haven't a chance.

thomond2006

Interesting blog from BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/tomfordyce/2010/03/england_the_hard_evidence.html

England: the hard evidence

England, says Martin Johnson, are getting better."There is progress and improvement," he said after Saturday's draw at Murrayfield. "We have the potential there."

It was a comment that raised a lot of eyebrows, not to mention a few hackles. If there are green shoots poking through, they don't seem to be hugely evident to many England fans.

So, in the spirit of enquiry, I've been doing a little research. A morning digging out some detailed statistics, an afternoon picking the brains of World Cup winners, coaching staff and current players.

Throughout it all, we'll try to be as positive as possible, both to lift the mood and refute complaints of media negativity. Spring, after all, is in the air, and in any case, no-one likes a whinger.

Stats first. Johnson has been in charge for 23 months, so I've looked at three Six Nations seasons - 2008, Brian Ashton's last tournament in charge, as the pre-Jonno yardstick; 2009, and this championship so far.

The number of off-loads from the tackle tell a similar tale. 30 in 2008, up to 43 a year ago, and now down to 22. There's a game to come, of course, but that's the lowest number in the championship.

What of line breaks? England produced 16 in Ashton's last season, when Danny Cipriani flowered so briefly against Ireland, and 21 last year, as many as Grand Slam champions Ireland. This season they've made 12.

I can sense some of that positivity ebbing away, so let's try to lift the mood. The error-count dropped in Johnson's first season and continues to do so - from 69 in 2008 to 54 in 2009 and now down to 31. There are those who say that simply reflects England's lack of adventure and ambition - France have made 54 errors this season, and they're on the brink of a Grand Slam - but we're supposed to be looking on the bright side, so let's move on.

Enough of the stats. What's the view from within the camp? Here's what the always-honest Lewis Moody, who's seen plenty of different England teams over his half-century of caps, told me at the team's training HQ on Wednesday.

"It's weird, because inside the squad there's probably the best atmosphere there has been since 2003," he said. "The coaches have put a lot of effort into creating the right environment, where everyone feels able to talk to them, whether you're a senior player or a young lad, and it feels like a very positive place to be.

"Now we understand that it doesn't matter what happens in the hotel or on the training pitch, that it's about results and performances, but there's so much reason for optimism. You see the talent in this squad close up and you know.

"We should have been going for the Grand Slam this weekend - we were in a position against Ireland where we were winning with eight minutes to go and should have finished it off, and Scotland was another we should have won.

"Without playing our best rugby, we could be going into this weekend having won four out of four, and that says a lot of a team that's only really been playing at 70%. There's a lot more to come from this side."
Austin Healey, who has watched every England match this season from the stands and pored over the tapes in his job as analyst for BBC Sport, doesn't quite see it the same way.

"At this point, asking me now, I can't see much improvement at all over the last year, and in particular over this Six Nations," he told me. "While they've won some games this year, they haven't won enough, and their performances haven't been up to scratch.

"I don't think you can spot any discernable style of play they're aiming for. Listening to the ref-link during the matches, they seem to have a lot of calls for a lot of plays, but they don't seem to know how to implement them in games. Some of the players like to do certain things that potentially don't match each other, and that's causing big issues.

"There are basic requirements they aren't getting right. Their alignment in the backs between 10, 12 and 13 is what's really breaking the game down for them, and their constant inability to win quick ruck ball would kill any team.

"We never see the forwards running off 10 or 12 or even in the wider channels. Their off-loading beyond the tackle is poor, and their rucking at the moment is pretty much non-existent. They don't get past the ball at the moment - the majority of England forwards just flop on the ball, which just slows up their own passages of play.

"I believe Martin Johnson needs to make some changes to his coaching staff, but I also believe that if you look at that England side, five years ago they maybe would have had three, four or five players in a world XV, whereas at the moment I'm not sure there's one player who would even get in a composite Six Nations team. And that's quite worrying.
"As a team you have to find your way through it, but I'm not sure this team knows a different pathway."

World Cup winner Josh Lewsey feels the same. "I don't think it is through lack of effort, and you can't fault the attitude - the players are giving everything," he told my colleague Bryn Palmer this week. "I am just not convinced it is entirely clear how they are trying to play the game and what the overall plan is - not just in each game, but in terms of developing the team towards the World Cup next year."

Ah, team development. Johnson has been criticised for favouring old stagers ahead of young guns. Even as he gave Ben Foden and Chris Ashton their first starts against France, he brought back the grizzled likes of Mike Tindall and Simon Shaw.

How do the stats for this add up? I've taken the starting XVs for the last three meetings with France (the 24-13 win under Ashton in 2008, the 34-10 thumping last year and the team announced by Johnson on Wednesday). The average age of each? Exactly the same - 28 years old. If it's hardly a rush of fresh blood, it's not an aging team either.

To the England hierarchy. Assistant coach John Wells sees the squad in action every day they're in camp. He's also the man who seems to cop most flack from press and punters for England's poorer displays.

When I put him on the spot, Wells told me there were four areas where he feels England have genuinely improved over the last 18 months - starting with their scrummaging.

"We've brought young kids with very few or no caps into the fierce world of international rugby," he said. "Matt Mullan's been capped, David Wilson, Dylan Hartley - and Dan Cole too, who's having an outstanding season. Bringing in one young guy to an experienced front row is one thing, but to bring in three or four on a regular basis - I think we've done a really good job of blending those guys into the system and producing a pretty good scrum.

"We've also found a way of getting the forwards more involved in the game as ball-carriers, whether it's tight or three metres from the fringes, or in the slightly wider channels. I'm not saying we've done it well, or that we've got the balance right - I don't think we have. But a lot of the tries we've created have come from good driving pressure close to the fringes.

"Thirdly, we're actually creating loads and loads of opportunities. What we're not doing is finishing them. It might not seem so, but if you watch it back, there have been a lot of four-on-twos and three-on-ones. If we weren't creating them, that would be far more worrying. It's frustrating for us and for people to watch that, but we will start taking those chances.

"Fourthly - and it's quite right that people have been critical, because we haven't been securing the results - we've been in positions to win games. Against Ireland at the death, we drove 20 metres from a line-out right up to their line. We didn't finish it as we should have done, and that's our fault, but if we had, we'd have won the game. We weren't stuck on our own line. Something similar happened against Scotland - in injury-time, we marched on and on, and then just missed the drop-goal chance."

So there we have it. Set fair, becalmed or sinking fast? "I would love to see England doing better," stresses Healey. "I hate watching them lose, and it all sounds very negative. But it's very hard to find any positivity at the moment."

I'll let you make your own mind up from here.

Judgement Day

Lievremont surprised by Wilkinson omission
Scrum.com
March 18, 2010


France coach Marc Lievremont has admitted his surprise at Martin Johnson's decision to drop Jonny Wilkinson for England's Six Nations visit to the Stade de France on Saturday.
Wilkinson has been replaced at fly-half by Leicester's Toby Flood for a game that sees France go in search of a first Grand Slam since 2004.
Lievremont was expecting Wilkinson to start if passed fit following a head knock sustained against Scotland but will have his team ready to face Flood with the memory of last year's Twickenham hammering fresh in the memory.
"I was a little surprised when I heard Wilkinson was not playing," he said. "I was expecting Wilkinson to start if he was fit, or not to take part at all if he hadn't recovered from his head injury.
"I haven't forgotten, however, that Wilkinson was not playing last year at Twickenham and Toby Flood was at fly-half. It didn't save us from conceding 30 points. And we know that if the match is in the balance, Wilkinson can come on and that could be decisive."
Lievremont was less surprised with the return of Simon Shaw in the second-row and believes that this selection decision, along with the recall of Mike Tindall in place of Mathew Tait at outside-centre, betrays England's gameplan.
"We were expecting the return of Simon Shaw who is the cornerstone of the English pack," he said. "We were also expecting England to beef up their backline with a player like (Mike) Tindall, even if I appreciate Mathew Tait is more creative and unpredictable. Through the selections of Shaw and Tindall, England have unveiled their game plan."
Shaw will join Steve Borthwick in the second-row should the skipper prove his fitness. Borthwick has undergone further scans on his knee injury and a decision on his fitness will be taken prior to the squad leaving for France on Friday. Stade Francais' Tom Palmer has remained with the squad as cover.

---

He's not the only one who's surprised but I'm sure Jonno will be on soon enough when the folly of his omission is realised!

thomond2006

Judgement Day wrote: »

He's not the only one who's surprised but I'm sure Jonno will be on soon enough when the folly of his omission is realised!

Are you Jonny Wilkinson?

pat_mas

teednab-el wrote: »

Again lads dont be suprised if you see the French folding against the English on Saturday. Over the last few years it has happened time and time again. The English have always had an advantage over the French and I believe that they will beat them on saturday. They have nothing to loose whereas the French are going for their first GS since 2004.

I think you haven't realized but this sort of stuff is over ... that's what makes France such a threat now

The English are coming to Paris with no sensible hopes and they will be trashed by something they don't have a clue of: "a fast offloading game".

France is going to play a fast moving and sparkling Rugby whatever the English style is on Saturday !!!

Over the recent past, French always lost to England when trying to play the English way (slow and kicking game) but now is time for England to try to raise their game to the French standard but unfortunately they simply can't do that :P