Africa's homophobia

DubArk

Please read link first.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8528409.stm

"Since a Ugandan MP proposed the death penalty for some gay people, homophobia has been on the rise in other parts of Africa......."




It’s a funny old world…… we finally crush apartheid in Africa and face up to the fact all men/women are equal!!

And then a new type of bigotry is nourished and fed to the masses!

As with South Africa in the past any country found to be infringing on Gay & Lesbian Human Rights, should have there produces boycotted.

Boston

South Africa

Apartheid isn't over in south africa, it's an extremely racist and xenophobic country. Not to mention the race riots a few years ago again Zimbabwean refugees.

witty_name

One of the worst things about what is happening in Uganda is that it all fuelled by American pastors...
It's an absolute disgrace.

Squaw Crow

Uganda for example is an extremely Christian country - no doubt brought about by missionaries. Its truly horrifying what an LGBT person faces. Whats also shocking about this is the fact that all organizations such as Amnesty who support LGBT rights are banned from the country as well as any organization promoting lgbt sexual health etc. Its actually ridiculous that this is aloud happen.

stephen_n

Squaw Crow wrote: »

Uganda for example is an extremely Christian country - no doubt brought about by missionaries. Its truly horrifying what an LGBT person faces. Whats also shocking about this is the fact that all organizations such as Amnesty who support LGBT rights are banned from the country as well as any organization promoting lgbt sexual health etc. Its actually ridiculous that this is aloud happen.

Would you suggest the UN should invade and enforce a regime change? Uganda has minerals that the west requires so it's very unlikely that trade sanctions will be imposed and civil rights let alone gay rights are a western luxury!

Squaw Crow

stephen_n wrote: »

Would you suggest the UN should invade and enforce a regime change? Uganda has minerals that the west requires so it's very unlikely that trade sanctions will be imposed and civil rights let alone gay rights are a western luxury!

No i don't believe in using war/invasion tactics as a whole to get a message across. I think that governments of the West and beyond should enter into discussions with Ugandan Ministers and bring about change. Gay rights are not a Western luxury, they are human rights- Gay Discrimination in Ireland = homophobia and marriage restrictions. Gay Discrimination in Uganda = imprisonment and death. It is effectively a form of genocide which is being proposed and to stand by and let it happen is not an option.

witty_name

I'm appalled that there hasn't been mass protests across the western world about this...
I do think that western governments should enter into negotiation with Uganda - threatening an embargo on the basis of human rights. I doubt they'll do that though.

stephen_n

Squaw Crow wrote: »

No i don't believe in using war/invasion tactics as a whole to get a message across. I think that governments of the West and beyond should enter into discussions with Ugandan Ministers and bring about change. Gay rights are not a Western luxury, they are human rights- Gay Discrimination in Ireland = homophobia and marriage restrictions. Gay Discrimination in Uganda = imprisonment and death. It is effectively a form of genocide which is being proposed and to stand by and let it happen is not an option.

witty_name wrote: »

I'm appalled that there hasn't been mass protests across the western world about this...
I do think that western governments should enter into negotiation with Uganda - threatening an embargo on the basis of human rights. I doubt they'll do that though.

Gay rights? How closeted are you two (no pun intended) to the reality's of the world. People in Uganda have little or no civil rights, gay, straight or indifferent doesn't really matter and the western world does nothing. You think they are going to suddenly react to a clamp down on gays and interfere with multinationals raping the country lol naive

Squaw Crow

stephen_n wrote: »

Gay rights? How closeted are you two (no pun intended) to the reality's of the world. People in Uganda have little or no civil rights, gay, straight or indifferent doesn't really matter and the western world does nothing. You think they are going to suddenly react to a clamp down on gays and interfere with multinationals raping the country lol naive

It makes a whole lot of difference between how lgbt people are treated in Uganda- this comes not from multinationals but from factors inside the country . Are you suggesting that lgbt people who face imprisonment and possible death is a matter which is indifferent? Uganda has a horrible human rights record - something which is made even more blotted with injustice with the measures against lgbt Ugandans - these measures do not apply to straight Ugandans, unless they are in support of the lgbt community- this is means that
it makes a big distinction made on the basis of a person's sexual orientation.

Also many governments have issued statements voicing disagreement with Uganda's lgbt polices, including our own.
More steps need to be taken however.

Endymion

No, he's saying that the country has bigger problems, for instance 1 in 10 people in urban areas are living with HIV.

Squaw Crow

Endymion wrote: »

No, he's saying that the country has bigger problems, for instance 1 in 10 people in urban areas are living with HIV.

This is new legislation- so its very topical in Uganda at the mo. I think that as much as possible should be done to combat hiv. Restricting info for lgbt people about sexual health - or for straight people - is wrong. The bill proposes that groups promoting lgbt sexual health are banned and if a gay person is found to
have been sexually active and contaminated with the hiv virus then they could face the death penalty.

Chorcai

Its Africa, what do you expect ? Get on the phone to Bob or Bono see will they help.

Reflector

It really is a shame. I also find that this affects how I act when I meet people from African countries and people from the middle East. I know that it is really judgemental and ignorant but when someone tells me that they are from these places I automatically think that they are probably against gays and then pretty much have no interest in socialising with them. I know its not right to judge people because of their ethnicity but it definitely triggers alarm bells for me.

stephen_n

Squaw Crow wrote: »

It makes a whole lot of difference between how lgbt people are treated in Uganda- this comes not from multinationals but from factors inside the country . Are you suggesting that lgbt people who face imprisonment and possible death is a matter which is indifferent? Uganda has a horrible human rights record - something which is made even more blotted with injustice with the measures against lgbt Ugandans - these measures do not apply to straight Ugandans, unless they are in support of the lgbt community- this is means that
it makes a big distinction made on the basis of a person's sexual orientation.

Also many governments have issued statements voicing disagreement with Uganda's lgbt polices, including our own.
More steps need to be taken however.

And there in lies my point

Also many governments have issued plenty of statements against Ugandas policies on many issues but do nothing to back them up so it would be a bit hypocritical of our government which does not provide equal civil rights to LGBT people in it's own country to start looking for sanctions on this issue!

DubArk

I don’t know if you can measure the human rights of one person against the rights of another. That would mean that there was a pecking order that meant, one persons life was more important, in your/our mind, then another and if that’s what we really believe, I would seriously question our own attitude toward others.

Leading one to believe, that for some reason straight people have little or no rights in Uganda therefore that would lead us to comprehend, why should Gays? Remember that this legislation is been introduced, it’s not as if it was on their stature books historically.

It wasn’t so long ago here in Ireland that 12 very brave Dunnes workers in the mid 80’s went on strike for two and a half years, for the right not to handle goods from Apartheid South Africa. Nelson Mandela said that their stand helped keep him going during his imprisonment.

It’s not a case of waiting for your government to make the first move but a case of you the individual making a stance. Vote with your pocket, don’t support these countries or purchase there produces and if enough people in time stop buying their goods it will make them review their stance. Maybe it may take a very very long time for it to impact on them but be assured money is king to all successful economies. The drip drip effect is what works in these situations.

Its the rights of all not just the few that matter.

Boston

DubArk wrote: »

I don’t know if you can measure the human rights of one person against the rights of another. That would mean that there was a pecking order that meant, one persons life was more important, in your/our mind, then another and if that’s what we really believe, I would seriously question our own attitude toward others.

Leading one to believe, that for some reason straight people have little or no rights in Uganda therefore that would lead us to comprehend, why should Gays? Remember that this legislation is been introduced, it’s not as if it was on their stature books historically.

It wasn’t so long ago here in Ireland that 12 very brave Dunnes workers in the mid 80’s went on strike for two and a half years, for the right not to handle goods from Apartheid South Africa. Nelson Mandela said that their stand helped keep him going during his imprisonment.

It’s not a case of waiting for your government to make the first move but a case of you the individual making a stance. Vote with your pocket, don’t support these countries or purchase there produces and if enough people in time stop buying their goods it will make them review their stance. Maybe it may take a very very long time for it to impact on them but be assured money is king to all successful economies. The drip drip effect is what works in these situations.

Its the rights of all not just the few that matter.

And look at south Africa now. Massive racial tension with many calling for Mugabe style reforms.

Uganda actually has a great constitution, will all kinds of rights. Though nothing to protect LGBT people. The thing to remember is that these new laws are popular there. It is all democratic, it isn't some dictator. Before you next donate to African charity, as them if they work in uganda, if they do, walk away.

DubArk

Boston wrote: »

And look at south Africa now. Massive racial tension with many calling for Mugabe style reforms.

Uganda actually has a great constitution, will all kinds of rights. Though nothing to protect LGBT people. The thing to remember is that these new laws are popular there. It is all democratic, it isn't some dictator. Before you next donate to African charity, as them if they work in uganda, if they do, walk away.

Not really a great constitution then is it?

Don’t really understand your point again!! You seem to be hung up on the point that you believe that South Africa doesn’t work now? Did it when Apartheid existed? Ah the good old days…..

So, democratically the Ugandans, in your opinion, are passing laws that are infringing and stamping all over Gay peoples rights, SO?

A wrong is a wrong and my point from the onset of this post is; that people can choose to NOT support this country and other countries like it, that feel they can democratically or not, treat peoples rights like sh*te they have found on their shoe!

I’m putting the onus on the individual to take a stance.

Boston

My point is that south Africa shouldn't be held up as a beacon of justice and equality. Nor would i congratulate those who fought for an end of apartheid and then forgot the country existed after it ended.

DubArk

Boston wrote: »

My point is that south Africa shouldn't be held up as a beacon of justice and equality. Nor would i congratulate those who fought for an end of apartheid and then forgot the country existed after it ended.

I never did hold South Africa up as beacon of justice and equality…. Are you reading my posts?

So now you’re under the assumption that those 12 works have forgotten all about South Africa…. Have you any proof to back up that point?

I applauded them for their stance; during a time in this country, when jobs were as scarce as hens’ teeth, much as now. I wish I was half the person, that some of these brave people were. I would go as far as to say, that as part of our schools curriculum, covering civics that our youth be taught the importance of the individual and how these few people brought to the forefront of the Irish psyche the situation in South Africa during the 1980’s. I would hold them up as a beacon of hope for all, that through their bravery and commitment with many others throughout the world, that change can happen and did happen in South Africa; starting with the deconstruction of apartheid. I only wish that people of the same caliber existed today in the face of injustices that exist throughout many countries in and out of the western world.

Back to topic: My point! Till then people can vote with their pocket.

stephen_n

My whole point was that the rights of a human being should not be dictated because of their sexuality or their gender or anything else really. I'm not trying to devalue this issue but I just think it strange to single it out, when there are so many issues in both Uganda and Africa as a whole that we in the west conviniently ignore.

In the end the Dunnes protest captivated national and media attention but it did not bring the end of apartheid or even signal the begining of the end. Apartheid and the government that supported it was brought down for commercial reasons and it was the devaluation of it's currency that did it not a small section of consumers on a tiny little island not buying it's produce.

As for boycotting Uganda's produce, might be a bit difficult as I would say most of it is just labeled Fair Trade. I would suggest that a letter writing or email campaign to the minister for foreign affairs although ultimately fruitless might still have more of an effect, if only to ease your conscience.

Annasopra

Boston wrote: »

Before you next donate to African charity, as them if they work in uganda, if they do, walk away.

I wouldn't agree - a more appropriate response is to find out if they work in Uganda and if their funds are distributed through the state or through NGOs and Aid Agencies - If the state distributes it walk away

Annasopra

stephen_n wrote: »

My whole point was that the rights of a human being should not be dictated because of their sexuality or their gender or anything else really.

That's quite a ridiculous point - Human Rights abuses occur precisely because of peoples sexuality and gender so to say that these characteristics should not dictate that people have rights is absolute nonsense

Tricity Bendix

Well, if we really wanted to do something about homophobia in Africa...

stephen_n

Johnnymcg wrote: »

That's quite a ridiculous point - Human Rights abuses occur precisely because of peoples sexuality and gender so to say that these characteristics should not dictate that people have rights is absolute nonsense

Human rights abuses occur for many reasons, Gender, Religion, Race to name but a few, so maybe you should read my point before calling it ridiculous since clearly you didn't given your response. I never suggested that peoples gender or sexuality should dictate if they have rights or not and am honestly bewildered as to how you could get that out what I said. I have repeatedly said that this is one of many abuses of human rights that occur in Uganda and Africa in general and singling this one out because you identify with it while ignoring the over all problem is narrow minded in my view. Then again it's a typical western viewpoint, like trying to find the one Irish person who was killed in Haiti, because our issues are so much more important!

Boston

DubArk wrote: »

I never did hold South Africa up as beacon of justice and equality…. Are you reading my posts?

So now you’re under the assumption that those 12 works have forgotten all about South Africa…. Have you any proof to back up that point?

I applauded them for their stance; during a time in this country, when jobs were as scarce as hens’ teeth, much as now. I wish I was half the person, that some of these brave people were. I would go as far as to say, that as part of our schools curriculum, covering civics that our youth be taught the importance of the individual and how these few people brought to the forefront of the Irish psyche the situation in South Africa during the 1980’s. I would hold them up as a beacon of hope for all, that through their bravery and commitment with many others throughout the world, that change can happen and did happen in South Africa; starting with the deconstruction of apartheid. I only wish that people of the same caliber existed today in the face of injustices that exist throughout many countries in and out of the western world.

Back to topic: My point! Till then people can vote with their pocket.

When they're burning white farmers in the streets I'll get back to you. This is their new hope.

Johnnymcg wrote: »

I wouldn't agree - a more appropriate response is to find out if they work in Uganda and if their funds are distributed through the state or through NGOs and Aid Agencies - If the state distributes it walk away

Why blame the government? It was democratically elected. Lets not pretend the people's views differ.

DubArk

Boston wrote: »

When they're burning white farmers in the streets I'll get back to you.

"Since a Ugandan MP proposed the death penalty for some gay people, homophobia has been on the rise in other parts of Africa......."


No when you have read my OP get back to me! :rolleyes:

Boston

DubArk wrote: »

"Since a Ugandan MP proposed the death penalty for some gay people, homophobia has been on the rise in other parts of Africa......."


No when you have read my OP get back to me! :rolleyes:

I read it. You're the one who brought up south africa as an example of how boycotting a country can bring about equality. South africa, the home of lesbian "corrective rapes" .

DubArk

Boston wrote: »

When they're burning white farmers in the streets I'll get back to you.

Boston wrote: »

I read it. You're the one who brought up south africa as an example of how boycotting a country can bring about equality. South africa, the home of lesbian "corrective rapes" .

Oops you're back!!! Promises promises..... are they burning white farmers in the streets??:P

Boston

DubArk wrote: »

Oops you're back!!! Promises promises..... are they burning white farmers in the streets??:P

black south Africans are burning Zimbabweans in the streets, small steps.

DubArk

DubArk wrote: »

Please read link first.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8528409.stm

"Since a Ugandan MP proposed the death penalty for some gay people, homophobia has been on the rise in other parts of Africa......."




It’s a funny old world…… we finally crush apartheid in Africa and face up to the fact all men/women are equal!!

And then a new type of bigotry is nourished and fed to the masses!

As with South Africa in the past any country found to be infringing on Gay & Lesbian Human Rights, should have there produces boycotted.

HERE WE GO AGIAN!!!!

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/21/world/africa/21malawi.html

Two gay men in Malawi, convicted this week of unnatural acts and gross indecency, were sentenced Thursday to the maximum penalty allowed by law, 14 years of hard labor in prison…..:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

LegacyUser

The majority of the population in these countries is extremely homophobic. The sad reality is that these laws are supported and popular. Until societal attitudes change and there is growing support for gay rights in those countries then this kind of thing is a guarantee. I believe gay people leaving those countries should be granted asylum

Iwasfrozen

DubArk wrote: »

HERE WE GO AGIAN!!!!

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/21/world/africa/21malawi.html

Two gay men in Malawi, convicted this week of unnatural acts and gross indecency, were sentenced Thursday to the maximum penalty allowed by law, 14 years of hard labor in prison…..:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

That's horrid, although this:

nytimes wrote:

"I just wanted people to know we were in love." Mr.Chimbalanga said in an interview earlier this year. He said he considered himself a woman and had been eager to dress as a bride.

Didn't exactly help his cause.

Aard

In for a penny, in for a pound, I guess

Pride Fighter

http://www.facebook.com/?page=1&sk=messages&tid=397508534110#!/group.php?gid=118496474854169

That is the facebook group set up in support for the recently sentenced couple in Malawi. I'd encourage anyone to join.

Rev Hellfire

Pride Fighter wrote: »

That is the facebook group set up in support for the recently sentenced couple in Malawi. I'd encourage anyone to join.

Man, facebook are you serious ?

Most of the people in malawi don't have access to the internet much less facebook. If you actually want to do something that might actually achieve something contact the various political parties here to encourage them to lobby the government to do something.

But really if you want to make African society more tolerant you need to help make it more educated and developed. And that means supporting aid programs to these countries.

DubArk

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's horrid, although this:

Didn't exactly help his cause.

And what cause would that be?? HIS FREEDOM

Iwasfrozen

DubArk wrote: »

And what cause would that be?? HIS FREEDOM

Yes.

Chuchoter

I really think civil rights is one of the smallest parts of this issue. The issue is not that they can't be themselves or be out the issue is that people are coming to kill them and their families. And once it comes in Uganda it will come in in the rest of Africa. This will be a genocide and no-one is saying anything and the second we start bringing in civil rights we are asking others do you agree with gay civil rights when really we should be asking others is it right that all these people will be slaughtered? Its an absolute disgrace that there has been no major protests from anyone and its an even bigger disgrace that Ireland, a country partnered with Uganda for aid, has said nothing. What if it was us? What if they were coming for us and our families and those in other countries who were free said nothing?

Annasopra

crayolastereo wrote: »

Its an absolute disgrace that there has been no major protests from anyone and its an even bigger disgrace that Ireland, a country partnered with Uganda for aid, has said nothing. What if it was us? What if they were coming for us and our families and those in other countries who were free said nothing?

Em actually Junior Minister Peter Power has been active through diplomatic channels on Uganda and Malawi

Chuchoter

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Em actually Junior Minister Peter Power has been active through diplomatic channels on Uganda and Malawi

They (he and the Irish ambassador to Uganda)have voiced their discontent with a few letters. They're no money being withdrawn.

Irish Aid provides vital support to one such group in the Karamjoa district of Uganda. Irish Aid works with the Government to improve access to basic education for the children of pastoral farmers. Over the last decade, Uganda, with support from Irish Aid and others has increased the number of Ugandan children at primary school from two million to over seven million.”

http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=83349
That was Peter Power on the 8th March 2010. He can disapprove all he wants, we're stilling propping up their education system (and basically everything else too) and maybe if everyone who gives them aid threatened to take it away they'd listen. I'd like to support the education of girls in Uganda, but not if it means 100s of thousands of people are going to be imprisoned or killed.

What about the actual minister for foreign affairs, Micheal Martin? What's he up to?
More on how much we give to Uganda
http://www.irishaid.gov.ie/uganda.asp

The_Minister

crayolastereo wrote: »

They (he and the Irish ambassador to Uganda)have voiced their discontent with a few letters. They're no money being withdrawn.

http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=83349
That was Peter Power on the 8th March 2010. He can disapprove all he wants, we're stilling propping up their education system (and basically everything else too) and maybe if everyone who gives them aid threatened to take it away they'd listen. I'd like to support the education of girls in Uganda, but not if it means 100s of thousands of people are going to be imprisoned or killed.

What about the actual minister for foreign affairs, Micheal Martin? What's he up to?
More on how much we give to Uganda
http://www.irishaid.gov.ie/uganda.asp

What do you think the Ugandans are going to do to gays if they cost them their education and health care systems?
We'll restore their aid after a month, because there won't be any gay people left to oppress.


Look, people are mistreated in these countries all the time - if you steal in some villages you are bullwhipped ffs. They kill and mistreat people all the time - why are we suddenly going to withdraw aid over this one issue?
If we withdraw aid on this then we have to withdraw aid on the numerous other ways they routinely fall short of our first-world standards.

thirtythirty

witty_name wrote: »

I'm appalled that there hasn't been mass protests across the western world about this...
I do think that western governments should enter into negotiation with Uganda - threatening an embargo on the basis of human rights. I doubt they'll do that though.

Hold on, hold on, hold on. You can't seriously be thinking that stuff can you!?!?

You're talking about a country where albino black people are hunted and chopped up to be used in voodoo medicine, and then eaten because the people believe they'll endow them with special powers! And you're talking gay rights - something that is literally only getting momentum in the developed world extremely recently!!!

I like you...but you crazy!

zippygirl

DubArk wrote: »

"Since a Ugandan MP proposed the death penalty for some gay people, homophobia has been on the rise in other parts of Africa......."

ok, this is rather interesting... death penalty for SOME gay people?! What is that supposed to mean? Considering that Africans are so against racism and discrimination i am a bit surprised...?

Annasopra

zippygirl wrote: »

ok, this is rather interesting... death penalty for SOME gay people?! What is that supposed to mean? Considering that Africans are so against racism and discrimination i am a bit surprised...?

I think that the SOME probably means nothing

South Africa has a history of trying to tackle racism and discrimination. I'm not aware that Africa in general has

shay_562

That couple in Malawi have been freed: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/29/malawi-frees-jailed-gay-couple

Seriously dodge. Making a statement that clearly says "These people have transgressed against you and everything you hold dear, but the UN is stopping us from punishing them..." seems very, very likely to lead to other people deciding to take matters into their own hands.

stephen_n

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

And that means supporting aid programs to these countries.

I would imagine that a lot of the aid programs are christian based and not likely to be campaigning for gay rights!

AnBealBocht

Not all Christian sects are gay-unfriendly.

Chuchoter

AnBealBocht wrote: »

Not all Christian sects are gay-unfriendly.

Other than universal unitarians I can't think of any who are really into it...

Rev Hellfire

stephen_n wrote: »

I would imagine that a lot of the aid programs are christian based and not likely to be campaigning for gay rights!

That's not important.

It doesn't matter if they actively campaign for gay rights or not, you're looking to raise both the standard of living and level of education of the population as a whole. Once you achieve that more liberal and inclusive thoughts typically follow.

stephen_n

I would imagine it is very important if the catholic church is involved in the education programs. That's not a dig at the catholic church, they have their beliefs and that's up to them but they are hardly going to teach open mindedness towards homosexuality are they? They show restraint here because of the zeitgeist would be anti intolerance I doubt very much that would be the case in Africa!