Offaly Power Plant

Rigor Mortis

Rte are reporting the announcement of a new 350 mw power plant in offaly which is being built to support the development of wind turbines in the area.

500 construction jobs being attributed to the job

Cunsiderthis

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Rte are reporting the announcement of a new 350 mw power plant in offaly which is being built to support the development of wind turbines in the area.

500 construction jobs being attributed to the job

I'm curious to know what all the 350 workers will be doing when the wind doesn't blow and no electricity is being produced.

While wind has a place to assist what's being called "base load", a power station which is purely to reply on wind power seems interesting as the best we can hope for is that any turbine will produce power 30% or so of the time.

Rigor Mortis

Cunsiderthis wrote: »

I'm curious to know what all the 350 workers will be doing when the wind doesn't blow and no electricity is being produced.

While wind has a place to assist what's being called "base load", a power station which is purely to reply on wind power seems interesting as the best we can hope for is that any turbine will produce power 30% or so of the time.

The construction of the gas fired plant will employ 500 people

As for the rest of your note you might want to read the original email more closely. The gas plant supports the wind turbines. It is specifically designed to go online quickly in times of low wind output.

pljudge321

Its a peaking station, a gas fired turbine designed to be able to turn on and ramp up to full capacity quickly if there is a sudden need for more generation i.e when the wind dies off and the wind farms stop generating electricity. There would be somewhere in the region of 30 - 50 fulltime staff working at a station like this.

The idea for these stations is that they wont be generating most of the time, but that they will have the finger ready on the big red button as it were.

Heroditas

pljudge321 wrote: »

Its a peaking station, a gas fired turbine designed to be able to turn on and ramp up to full capacity quickly if there is a sudden need for more generation i.e when the wind dies off and the wind farms stop generating electricity. There would be somewhere in the region of 30 - 50 fulltime staff working at a station like this.

The idea for these stations is that they wont be generating most of the time, but that they will have the finger ready on the big red button as it were.

They appear to have got permission for the 100MW peaking part alright.

From January:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0119/breaking24.html

The plant will consist of two generating units – a flexible unit consisting of two gas turbines and one steam turbine and a smaller simple-cycle unit. The simple-cycle unit is a reserve/peaker plants in the event of a rapid fall-off in wind generation.

I don't see how they could get regulatory go-ahead to build the "flexible unit":

1. Whitegate and Aghada will be idle due to the excess capacity
2. The Endesa units are idle
3. There is no major gas pipeline to supply the station
4. Transmission losses would render any efficiency gains null and void

Cunsiderthis

Heroditas wrote: »

I don't see how they could get regulatory go-ahead to build the "flexible unit":

1. Whitegate and Aghada will be idle due to the excess capacity
2. The Endesa units are idle
3. There is no major gas pipeline to supply the station
4. Transmission losses would render any efficiency gains null and void

Are points 1-4 true?

pljudge321

Heroditas wrote: »

They appear to have got permission for the 100MW peaking part alright.

From January:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0119/breaking24.html



I don't see how they could get regulatory go-ahead to build the "flexible unit":

1. Whitegate and Aghada will be idle due to the excess capacity
2. The Endesa units are idle
3. There is no major gas pipeline to supply the station
4. Transmission losses would render any efficiency gains null and void

Hmm, I was under the impression that it was a typical CCGT and that its operation as a peaking station would just be its two gas turbines running open cycle without the heat recovery boiler and turbine running. I didn't know they had plans for a separate peaking station as well, what does that consist of?

Heroditas

Cunsiderthis wrote: »

Are points 1-4 true?

Yes. There is now over-capacity in the system.
Whitegate, due to its location, will rarely be called on to supply the pool due to transission losses, same with Aghada.

pljudge321 wrote:

Hmm, I was under the impression that it was a typical CCGT and that its operation as a peaking station would just be its two gas turbines running open cycle without the heat recovery boiler and turbine running. I didn't know they had plans for a separate peaking station as well, what does that consist of?

The whole development just doesn't make sense. I can understand the building of a peaking plant but can't understand the reasoning behind also building a conventional CCGT system as well, particularly due to the location.
It quite simply doesn't add up

whatisayis

Heroditas wrote: »

Yes. There is now over-capacity in the system.
Whitegate, due to its location, will rarely be called on to supply the pool due to transission losses, same with Aghada.

The whole development just doesn't make sense. I can understand the building of a peaking plant but can't understand the reasoning behind also building a conventional CCGT system as well, particularly due to the location.
It quite simply doesn't add up

IT might make sense when you look at who is involved!

"AN engineering consortium is to build two power stations in Co Offaly in a €350m plan backed by the taoiseach's younger brother, Barry Cowen."
http://www.tribune.ie/business/article/2008/nov/30/350m-plan-for-two-power-stations-in-county-offaly/

Cunsiderthis

whatisayis wrote: »

IT might make sense when you look at who is involved!

"AN engineering consortium is to build two power stations in Co Offaly in a €350m plan backed by the taoiseach's younger brother, Barry Cowen."
http://www.tribune.ie/business/article/2008/nov/30/350m-plan-for-two-power-stations-in-county-offaly/

If he's anything like his older brother, he'll tell us that the station is economically sound, that there is no basis for questioning its viability, before the CEO steps in to tell us all that those questioning the viability of the project should go off and commit suicide.

Then, when it all goes horribly wrong, he'll blame everyone else for the projects failure, before telling us that he is the best person to sort out the mess (all the while being paid a big salary and expenses from the receivers) eventually telling us all that its for our own good that he is going to force the state to take over ownership, bale out the investors, and keep paying his his big salary and expenses, the state picking up the tab for the losses every year into the future, for perpetuity.

mal1

Cunsiderthis wrote: »

Are points 1-4 true?

Points 1 and 4 are definitely incorrect. 2 is debatable and i don't know about 3.

mal1

mal1 wrote: »

Points 1 and 4 are definitely incorrect. 2 is debatable and i don't know about 3.

As far as I know the main gas line follows the N6 east - west and is about 30km* north of the site.

*guestimate.

gullon

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

The construction of the gas fired plant will employ 500 people

As for the rest of your note you might want to read the original email more closely. The gas plant supports the wind turbines. It is specifically designed to go online quickly in times of low wind output.

Until the russians turn off the tap!

gullon

gullon wrote: »

Until the russians turn off the tap!

I thought that the gas was coming from the West coast!

SeanW

some of it

rest is imported

Heroditas

mal1 wrote: »

Points 1 and 4 are definitely incorrect. 2 is debatable and i don't know about 3.

Aghada and Whitegate lose a couple of percentage points of efficiency due to their location.
Due to the fall in demand, they won't be called upon regularly in the pool. It's common knowledge in the industry.

2 is anything but debatable. The Endesa plants are only receiving capacity payments the vast majority of the time.

mal1

Heroditas wrote: »

Aghada and Whitegate lose a couple of percentage points of efficiency due to their location.
Due to the fall in demand, they won't be called upon regularly in the pool. It's common knowledge in the industry.

2 is anything but debatable. The Endesa plants are only receiving capacity payments the vast majority of the time.

I don't think so.And i don't think that it's common knowledge in the energy industry. They will still be highly efficient units. The most efficient on the network. They should be dispatched first (since they will be generating cheaper energy), resulting in more inefficient units further down the list being turned off;)

Heroditas

mal1 wrote: »

I don't think so.And i don't think that it's common knowledge in the energy industry. They will still be highly efficient units. The most efficient on the network. They should be dispatched first (since they will be generating cheaper energy), resulting in more inefficient units further down the list being turned off;)

It doesn't matter what their generating efficiency is if they are at the far end of the country to where the generated power is required. It's a big issue and with the grid in its current state, the plants lose those efficiency gains through transmission.

Shiny

Heroditas wrote: »

2 is anything but debatable. The Endesa plants are only receiving capacity payments the vast majority of the time.

But they will be demolished (and replaced eventually) soon enough anyway.

Heroditas

Shiny wrote: »

But they will be demolished (and replaced eventually) soon enough anyway.

They'll still be badly located.

Every day that a plant is sitting idle, it's costing its company an awful lot of money.

Endesa spent a huge amount of money on two very old sites that have to be completely rebuilt. It's debatable whether they'll get their money back over the lifetime of the new plants.

mal1

Heroditas wrote: »

It doesn't matter what their generating efficiency is if they are at the far end of the country to where the generated power is required. It's a big issue and with the grid in its current state, the plants lose those efficiency gains through transmission.

I agree with you but to a different degree. I just don't agree that it's true to say that the new units will be sitting idle most of the date. The rest is all true.

They will pay for using the grid if the generation is being transferred across the network. It won't result in them sitting idle.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

Bogger77

Back to the location of said station
Access to main west to east pipeline is less than 25Km.
The site is well connected to existing grid, and is very close to critical eirgrid infrastructure.
a point not discussed, is that the local community in that area, are not adverse to power stations and the related visual pollution, the pre-existing station was build 1950's, demolished 2002/2003, the community has been accustomed to having major infrastructure nearby.

Heroditas

mal1 wrote: »

They will pay for using the grid if the generation is being transferred across the network.

Which will add to the marginal cost and will exclude them from being successful in bidding into the pool every half hour!

robtri

Heroditas wrote: »

They'll still be badly located.

Every day that a plant is sitting idle, it's costing its company an awful lot of money.

Endesa spent a huge amount of money on two very old sites that have to be completely rebuilt. It's debatable whether they'll get their money back over the lifetime of the new plants.

Endesa have been in the energy game long enough and have enough accountants and engineers to make the right call on business investemnt whether long term it will make money or not.....

Heroditas

robtri wrote: »

Endesa have been in the energy game long enough and have enough accountants and engineers to make the right call on business investemnt whether long term it will make money or not.....

They bought the sites on the basis that the demand in this country would not drop. That would give them a market to sell power into until such time as they could get the sites redeveloped into more efficient generators, by which time they could then hopefully export power to the UK.
Spending €450 on two inefficient oil powered plants that needed to be shut down is a spectacular piece of bad business.

We also heard how banks had been in the banking business long enough to know when to make the right calls on loans and investments. We saw how that ended.....

Marcelproust

Cunsiderthis wrote: »

If he's anything like his older brother, he'll tell us that the station is economically sound, that there is no basis for questioning its viability, before the CEO steps in to tell us all that those questioning the viability of the project should go off and commit suicide.

Then, when it all goes horribly wrong, he'll blame everyone else for the projects failure, before telling us that he is the best person to sort out the mess (all the while being paid a big salary and expenses from the receivers) eventually telling us all that its for our own good that he is going to force the state to take over ownership, bale out the investors, and keep paying his his big salary and expenses, the state picking up the tab for the losses every year into the future, for perpetuity.

lol, this post made me laugh out loud. :)

SpringerF

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Rte are reporting the announcement of a new 350 mw power plant in offaly which is being built to support the development of wind turbines in the area.

500 construction jobs being attributed to the job

Two of these power plants have been or are in the final stages of completion in Ireland at the moment.
Aghada(ESB) Whitgate(Bord Gais).

There is also planning permission being sought by a company called Endesa to build even more of them.

When I visited both of these locations as I had to on several occasions I was struck by the amount of non nationals employed on these sites.

I would not get my hopes up because of these statements released to the press by those with a vested interest

me_right_one

Who's actually going to run these places when they're built? Are they recruiting yet?

SpringerF

pljudge321 wrote: »

Hmm, I was under the impression that it was a typical CCGT and that its operation as a peaking station would just be its two gas turbines running open cycle without the heat recovery boiler and turbine running. I didn't know they had plans for a separate peaking station as well, what does that consist of?

Due to the method used in the construction of a typical CCGT plant it is not possible to run the gas turbine alone.

These type of plants gain these efficiency figures from the combined use of gas and steam so therefore they are constructed to run both.

Gas turbine runs , turns generator.
The heat produced from the combustion is fed through a boiler producing steam
Steam is used to drive a steam turbine connected to the same generator.


There is no way of bypassing the boiler with the heat from the gas turbine.

Simple cycle just sends the heat straight up the chimmney.

Someone else here said

Boilers can store steam to drive steam turbines later.
Boilers make steam, end of story.
You cannot store steam.

Someone else said gas turbines can store air to be used in combustion later.
Gas turbines burn gas and air they themselves do not store anything.
Gas turbines are an engine used to drive something, in this case a generator.

Of course a gas turbine could just as easily drive a compressor which would comress air into a tank which could then be used to supply the gas turbine with air for combustion. Why would you want to do that.

SpringerF

me_right_one wrote: »

Who's actually going to run these places when they're built? Are they recruiting yet?

The Whitegate plant is being run on contract by a company called GE.
GE is the OEM on site.

Its on a staff contract basis, 2 year contract, with every conceiveable trick in the book used to employ people for the very minimum they can get away with.

I think all positions are filled by people who are on pension from other jobs.
Few if any have any power station experience. It all came down to whoever would work for the least amount of money.

pljudge321

SpringerF wrote: »

Due to the method used in the construction of a typical CCGT plant it is not possible to run the gas turbine alone.

Depends on the plant design, it requires more stacks, Poolbeg CCGT can be run as open cycle, thats why it has four flue stacks instead of two. I'm not sure but I think Huntstown has similar capability's as well.

Edit: Just checked, Huntstown can be run as open cycle.

Capt'n Midnight

SpringerF wrote: »

Boilers can store steam to drive steam turbines later.
Boilers make steam, end of story.
You cannot store steam.

yes you can , in the boiler
most of the energy would be stored as heat in the water,
and no you wouldn't have a lot of energy stored
but it's just a matter of boiler size and insulation as to how much you can store, but it's more of a hot start rather like spinning the generators at a pumped storage plant
This is how steam powered submarines worked

Someone else said gas turbines can store air to be used in combustion later.
Gas turbines burn gas and air they themselves do not store anything.
Gas turbines are an engine used to drive something, in this case a generator.

The compressor is the big fan on the front that takes maybe 40% of the power produced by the turbine. High pressure air from the compressor can be stored. You could also use electric compressors. You use the air later instead of the compresor, It's been done in Germany for yonks.