Equality Authority Calls for recognition of diversity in parenting

Dr Galen

A little surprised that this hasn't been picked by any of our regulars yet. I've had a look on the Equality Authority's website, but can't find an official statement. Appears to a move in the right direction, will anyone listen though, and more importantly will anyone do anything?

Call for recognition of diversity in parenting
Sunday, 14 March 2010 22:25

The Equality Authority has called for greater recognition of the diverse situations in which children are being parented in modern Ireland.

In a statement, it says the best interests of children require that the greater diversity of parenting arrangements be acknowledged in the framing of family law.

The Authority recommends the conferral of automatic parental responsibility on all fathers, regardless of marital status.
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It also calls for the introduction of paternity leave and for greater flexibility in the use of maternity leave.

CDfm

I imagine the reason is because it is one of those waffle statements that we are used to hearing.

That one would require a change to the constitution and court enforcement.

How on earth could they enforce that if they dont enforce the laws they have. Now if they called for a change to enforcement of family law as it stands it would be a practical issue.

lazygal

Article 41 Family
(2.1) In particular, the State recognizes that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.
(2.2) The State shall, therefore, endeavor to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labor to the neglect of their duties in the home.

It's because of this OP. It would have to be changed. This is how the Constitution views diversity of parenting ie its a woman's job.

Boston

And what exactly is the problem with changing it? Since I turned 18 I've voted in no less then four referenda, four!. Over crap of significantly less direct importance to Ireland.

lazygal

Boston wrote: »

And what exactly is the problem with changing it? Since I turned 18 I've voted in no less then four referenda, four!. Over crap of significantly less direct importance to Ireland.

I know! Me too. But the TDs seem more worried about medical cards and keeping rubbish local hospitals open. Lobby them gentlemen-I did raise this point on another thread on marriage.

The Corinthian

I read an article on the proposed changes a good while ago and it left me unimpressed. To begin with, while it called for unmarried men to become automatic guardians, it looked at changing the position so that diluted down the rights, which is a bit like giving with one hand only to take away with the other.

Another thing that was mentioned in a recent article is that guardianship while automatic could still be lost - I would be interested to see if the 'Equality' Authority would extend this potential loss to both parents. Bare in mind too, the purpose of this reform was to bring Ireland in line with the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and not to redress discrimination against men - that is simply an altruistic by-product if it happens.

Additionally, as CDfm pointed out, unless enforceable, it makes very little difference if a father is a guardian or not.

I would be interested to see the details of any proposed legislation on this. Until then my fear is that it will produce a worthless guardianship role in terms of rights, possibly even further curtailing men's other rights, while giving us the illusion that the matter has been dealt with and no longer needs to be looked at for another few decades - and this could be a real problem with changing it now.

Nevyn

Automatic guardianship, but what system would be put in place, would be after a paternity test? and then is it fair to subject children of un married parents to this and not married parents and where and how will the data be stored.

Boston

Well it seems that an obvious starting point world be that if the father's name is on the birth cert, then he's a guardian.

metrovelvet

Boston wrote: »

Well it seems that an obvious starting point world be that if the father's name is on the birth cert, then he's a guardian.

This is how it's done in the US. But in the US enforcement is real.

Boston

The Germans have a weird system, any child born within a marriage is the product of that marriage and the responsibility of the husband regardless of paternity. So if two people are separated but not divorced, any child the "wife" has with a subsequent partner is the responsibly of the husband until an paternity test is carried out.

But get this, the husband, who is recognised as a legal guardian, cannot obtain a paternity test which has legal standing without the mothers permission.

We don't have a monopoly on fuked up family law.

metrovelvet

Boston wrote: »

The Germans have a weird system, any child born within a marriage is the product of that marriage and the responsibility of the husband regardless of paternity. So if two people are separated but not divorced, any child the "wife" has with a subsequent partner is the responsibly of the husband until an paternity test is carried out.

But get this, the husband, who is recognised as a legal guardian, cannot obtain a paternity test which has legal standing without the mothers permission.

We don't have a monopoly on fuked up family law.

It's the same in some states in the US too. Nowhere can you get a paternity test without the mother's permission unless through the courts.

SO how is a husband going to take his wife to court and risk being wrong and how would that effect the marriage? Unless proven and contested, that child is the husband's responsibility because the law assumes it is his child.

The Corinthian

metrovelvet wrote: »

SO how is a husband going to take his wife to court and risk being wrong and how would that effect the marriage? Unless proven and contested, that child is the husband's responsibility because the law assumes it is his child.

I think in those cases, at least where the father has access to the child, he will get a 'sneaky' DNA test, without the mother's knowledge, and only demand a formal one if it turns out negative.

The real problem is when the child is too old for a 'sneaky' DNA test - where they would realize what is going on. Many fathers would put doubt behind them at that stage, simply because they could never bring themselves to do that in the knowledge of the child.

This is all a bit OT though.

Boston

In German you can't get a court order requiring a paternity test. It's a mothers right, even if it's blatantly office the husband isn't the father.

Nevyn

Boston wrote: »

The Germans have a weird system, any child born within a marriage is the product of that marriage and the responsibility of the husband regardless of paternity. So if two people are separated but not divorced, any child the "wife" has with a subsequent partner is the responsibly of the husband until an paternity test is carried out.

But get this, the husband, who is recognised as a legal guardian, cannot obtain a paternity test which has legal standing without the mothers permission.

We don't have a monopoly on fuked up family law.

I know someone who was separated and not divorced and when his wife gave birth to someone elses child his name ended up on the birth cert, so we have had the same assumption under law.

K-9

Thaedydal wrote: »

I know someone who was separated and not divorced and when his wife gave birth to someone elses child his name ended up on the birth cert, so we have had the same assumption under law.

Indeed, I think until the official divorce the presumption is still that the "husband" is the father. I think a form has to be signed confirming that the paternal father is indeed, the father!

CDfm

Its still a load of waffle.

Until there is a commitment to strict enforcement in Ireland statements like this are just talk and not worth the peper they are written on.

metrovelvet

It's true and its annoying to boot. They are spending all this money on research and programmes and it utimately comes down to nought.

There is a lot of work being done behind the scenes to push for fathers to take on more responsibility but ultimately how can you legislate over that? You can't. The whole legal process in this country as regards family law seems like some sort of play court, some kind of go through the motions, with no real consequences but a fatter bank balance for the lawyers.

CDfm

metrovelvet wrote: »

It's true and its annoying to boot. They are spending all this money on research and programmes and it utimately comes down to nought.

What money was spent on research and programmes to arrive at that statement ?

It was a b/s pointless statement by the Equality Bunch and whats more they should have known better than to make it.

Jeez - its not at all comforting that they can issue a statement without having a basic knowledge of the law on fathers rights.

The background to it was probably something like

Well we was down in the pub when Mary said we werent in the paper enough and Joe had a new netbook and we wanted to try out the wifi.Weyhey it works -we issued the statement electronically and didnt have to leave the pub.Cutting edge stuff.

There is a lot of work being done behind the scenes to push for fathers to take on more responsibility but ultimately how can you legislate over that? You can't. .

What type of background behind the scenes programmes are you talking about undertaken by whom and with funding from where.

Facts and figures to back this up please

The whole legal process in this country as regards family law seems like some sort of play court, some kind of go through the motions, with no real consequences but a fatter bank balance for the lawyers

In the court system you have an applicant and defendant. What type of court orders are you talking about that are of no real consequence.

Do you have any studies or sources to back upwhat you are saying.

metrovelvet

I dont know why you are arguing with someone who is agreeing with you. I have been in these circles with you before.

CDfm

I am not arguing i am asking you to cite studies or organisations to back up your point.

We see lots of unsupported rhetoric posted -so lets see facts.

iptba

Boston wrote: »

But get this, the husband, who is recognised as a legal guardian, cannot obtain a paternity test which has legal standing without the mothers permission.

I was under the impression it was a similar system here – labs etc won’t run tests without the mother’s permission and it technically considered assault (although not sure if that part has ever lead to much although perhaps it might put you at a disadvantage in a family law court).