Parenting in Germany/Paris/NY ( BBC Article )

Davidth88

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/8564510.stm

That's an interesting read .


I do wonder sometimes how our parenting is considered abroad. Do we pander to our kids too much ? Do we let them ' off the leash ' too early ?

I am sure if this article extended to say Japan , we would find even more restrictions on childhood

Nevyn

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/8564510.stm

Berlin's children given reprieve from noise police

Berlin recently became the first of Germany's 16 federal states to allow children to legally make a noise. Joanna Robertson, currently based in Berlin with two daughters, compares the varying attitudes to children she has encountered in Berlin, Paris, New York City and Rome.
German children playing in the snow
Germany has strict laws to ensure children are seen but not heard

In the beginning, it was the telephone.

"Frau Robertson?" "Yes?"

"I know your daughter's up there. She's playing, isn't she?"

Then came the doorbell.

Neglecting, for once, to peep through the spy-hole I opened the door, all unawares.

There she stood, square in the hallway, the neighbour from the third floor.

A successful detective novelist with a penchant for Parisian murders, she muscled her way in and could not be muscled-out again for quite some time.

The problem? My three-year-old daughter, Miranda - weight: under three stone; footwear: soft bedroom slippers - was allegedly making a noise. Only she was not.

For my own and other families in our quiet, solid apartment building, Berlin's concession to the sounds of childhood comes as an immense relief.

The reward for keeping quiet in class? The teacher gives out a balloon filled with freezing water, to burst upon the head of a fellow pupil of one's choice

Children may now officially be children at least from Monday to Saturday, 0900 to 1900.

For parents, there will at last be some protection from harassing neighbours.

"Excessive child noise," warranted a police call-out to our building for the crying of a newborn baby and, one Saturday afternoon, a group of cheerful 12-year-olds playing a game of Monopoly.

Berlin leaves me baffled. True to the spirit of the Brothers Grimm, childhood here is filled with wonders, but is unexpectedly grim.

Two-faced

There are toyshops by the hundreds. And puppet theatres. Sweetshops. Playgrounds with terrific slides. Ice creams scattered with gummi-bear jelly sweets. Sledging in winter, cycling in summer, tree-climbing and swimming in lakes.

But should a little child fall off her bike, passers-by will laugh out loud.

No mercy will be shown to a young child who has lost his ticket on the train, and beware like Hansel and Gretel children, those tempting German sweets.

Your teeth must be brushed three times a day, or Croko the Tooth Cleaning Crocodile might just gobble you up.
Monopoly
A Monopoly game meant a call from the police for some "noisy" youngsters

Take my elder daughter, Lilli's, junior school. The reward for keeping quiet in class?

The teacher gives out a balloon filled with freezing water, to burst upon the head of a fellow pupil of one's choice.

An ancient history lesson included a film so gorily violent that even the toughest 10-year-olds covered their eyes.

"That's what life is like," they were told.

There is the science mistress who carries a long cane to "tap" wayward pupils.

Recent school outings have included an unscheduled visit to a nuclear bunker, and a film about the struggles of an abandoned girl given up for international adoption.

Childhood controls

Back in middle-class Paris, such issues were censored. Childhood was strictly controlled.

Small playgrounds, kept neat. Climbing frames with minimum age restrictions.

Parks with formal lawns and avenues of white gravel, perfect for grazing children's knees.
Ice Cream generic
German and Italian parents differ radically on when to eat ice-cream

The school system drilled the nation. From kindergarten upwards, Lilli was told when to sit, when to stand, when to go to the toilet.

She practiced, with her pen, curls and loops and has handwriting the same as everyone else in France.

There was speech therapy to perfect French children's French vowels. Lilli struggled home under the weight of her book-brimming schoolbag, sat almost daily tests and three times a year brought-in a school report that said little about her, but listed her marks and her position in class to the second decimal place.

In the two-hour lunch break in a small, bleak courtyard no books were allowed, and there was certainly no playing football with the boys.

Parental angst

Life in Manhattan was all "developmental milestones".

By the sandpit (or "sandbox"), parents' talk was anxious.

Would Maxwell master his pencil-hold, and get into that preschool?

Why was two-year-old Ashley not doing better at maths?

On the health front, the obsessions were hyper-activity, attention deficit disorder, dyslexia, and dyspraxia, all largely ignored in France, where all anyone talked about was bronchitis.

In Rome, it was paramount to cover one's child, even in hot weather, in case a breeze or a sweat should lead to a sudden chill

Here in Germany, I have discovered it is bowels, whereas back in Italy, it was chills.

In Rome, it was paramount to cover one's child, even in hot weather, in case a breeze or a sweat should lead to a sudden chill.

Ice-cream was never eaten on a cold day (something German children would find extraordinary), and never in one's Sunday best clothes, in case of spills.

In a culture where the child was so often the centre of attention, it seemed that messy clothes were the only taboo.

Lilli would happily rebel, making mud-pies, and fishing for tadpoles on the banks of the River Tiber.

Confused by so many conflicting cultures the other day, I booked a telephone appointment with an international parenting counsellor from Washington State in the US, and obediently got up at 0400 GMT to talk.

A soothing, disembodied voice from the Pacific North West recommended I immediately remove my children from school, that we all sleep together on cushions on the floor and switch to unpasteurised milk.

I rang off, and remembered my sensible, Scottish roots.

When it comes to one's children, I reminded myself, mother always knows best.

Davidth88

Thanks, should have posted the text as well , my apologies

Nevyn

No bother, I found that people will be more likely to read it if it's quoted here.

On reading it I was wondering how parents who have came to this country over the last 7 years or so have dealt with the differences in culture.

Fran79

Hi

In response to Thaedydal re parents who have come here in the last 7 years.

I am English, my husband is British / Irish, but has some cousins who live nearby (who are Irish) with children a few years older than our little boy.

My observations so far....

The kids go to bed really late.
The parents are designer clothes obsessed.
The parents let the kids get away with a lot - kids shout at their parents, parents shout back, but the kid still gets what it wants.
Love is brought! (3 year olds with Nintendo DS)
A big culture of keeping up with the Jones'

Just a few of the differences I have noticed.

Fran

silverharp

I remember reading an articled called something like "lying to our kids" and one of the points was that the average suburban house can replicate the dysfunctional household of a decadant 18thC nobleman. Values and character building are important.

Nevyn

Fran79 wrote: »

Hi

In response to Thaedydal re parents who have come here in the last 7 years.

I am English, my husband is British / Irish, but has some cousins who live nearby (who are Irish) with children a few years older than our little boy.

My observations so far....

The kids go to bed really late.
The parents are designer clothes obsessed.
The parents let the kids get away with a lot - kids shout at their parents, parents shout back, but the kid still gets what it wants.
Love is brought! (3 year olds with Nintendo DS)
A big culture of keeping up with the Jones'

Just a few of the differences I have noticed.

Fran

The kids go to bed really late.
I can say mine don't before 9 on a school night and they are 12 and 8.

The parents are designer clothes obsessed.
Not in this household, my kids know better and stand up for themselves not having Nike runners due to they will grow out of them in 3 months and the unethical practices of Nike re child labour.

The parents let the kids get away with a lot - kids shout at their parents,
parents shout back, but the kid still gets what it wants.

If either of mine were to do that they would sent to thier room right away
and most certainly would not get thier way.

Love is brought! (3 year olds with Nintendo DS)
that is madness, mine only got thiers this year, a 3 year old can't mind an expensive hand held electronics

A big culture of keeping up with the Jones'
not where I live or in how I raise my children

I think you are making sweeping statements and tbh they don't hold water.
By difference I didn't mean for people to have a go I meant in how culturally children are expected to behave and treated.

Fran79

Hi Thaedydal

I wasn't having a go, but just making observations. The comments I made are based on my experience. Of the 20 or so parents I know, most of these comments would apply to 15-16 of them.

I appreciate that this is a small sample, but for that sample I stand by what I said.

Re the parents are designer obsessed............please note the word parents. The kids I know are generally under 6 years old so couldn't care what the lable says.

Fran

deisemum

Fran79 wrote: »

Hi

In response to Thaedydal re parents who have come here in the last 7 years.

I am English, my husband is British / Irish, but has some cousins who live nearby (who are Irish) with children a few years older than our little boy.

My observations so far....

The kids go to bed really late.
The parents are designer clothes obsessed.
The parents let the kids get away with a lot - kids shout at their parents, parents shout back, but the kid still gets what it wants.
Love is brought! (3 year olds with Nintendo DS)
A big culture of keeping up with the Jones'

Just a few of the differences I have noticed.

Fran

When I lived in the UK I found this to be the case there rather than here, much more so than here anyway. I think Eastenders is a fairly good portrayal of living in London so that's why I moved back here when my son was 16 months.

Sleepy

This may be an out-dated view but from my own experience of a cultural exchange to Lorient in 1994 I noticed quite a difference between the average Irish 14 year old and the average French one.

As a group, the Irish were quite a lot more 'worldly' than our French counterparts who were treated far more like little children than we were.

The French seemed to skip the teenage years and behave as children until their 15th or 16th year when they would start to be treated as, and behave like, young adults.

I remember finding it strange at the time that while I considered my exchange partner and his friends to be very childish I was amazed by how 'sophisticated' their older siblings seemed by contrast to the older teenagers I knew in Galway.

tscul32

Have to say the same as last posters. I think it's more about the people you know than cultural differences. My guys are 4 and 2. They go to bed at 7. They do have the odd bit of designer wear, either presents or if bought by us, only bought if they cost no more than the Dunnes Stores equivalent, i.e. major sale reductions/outlet bargains. Never buy because of a label, same as for my own clothes. We have a ps2, a wii and 2 ds's in the house. The kids know about none of them. Actually the wii is in the sitting room but as far as they're concerned it's mammy's exercise thing. The 4yo has recently been introduced to the laptop and plays dora or diego games for 10 mins before bed some nights. I don't know the Jones' and if I did I wouldn't care what they had. My kids shout and demand things. They NEVER get them and get dealt with appropriately for their behaviour. Doesn't stop them trying though!

This is the norm in my home and in the homes of my family and friends. That's why I believe they're my friends, because we share a similar mindset. I also know of many people who live as described by Fran79. But what that describes is a mindset, not a culture, and it's one that exists in every culture in every country.

bogtotty

I agree with some of what Fran said - my own sister allows her kids (5&8) to stay up until well after midnight at the weekends because she doesn't get to spend time with them during the week (she works mad hours). They also get to choose what is on tv and don't understand when they come to my house that grown-ups pick the channel after 7pm. Absent-parent-guilt also sees them having their own mobile phones, designer gear, being allowed to play over-18s video games and a having major say in large purchases (like which car to buy). I don't get it at all. I'm not some mad authoritarian but a sound routine is the basis for well-behaved kids and sane parents in my opinion.

Regarding the BBC article, I lived in Germany and they are very odd about noise. I worked in a hotel for some time and once had some guests call the police because builders on a site adjacent started work ten minutes before the permitted time. The family upstairs in my apartment block had some very lively young children (rare in itself in that they had more than one). I loved hearing them tearing about, but the couple below us (ie 2 floors down from the kids) would regularly complain about the noise of the kids playing. We did our bit by regularly banging on the floor when the grouchy couple had rows or when their dog barked, even if it didn't really disturb us.

pickarooney

Thaedydal wrote: »

The kids go to bed really late.
I can say mine don't before 9 on a school night and they are 12 and 8.

The parents are designer clothes obsessed.
Not in this household, my kids know better and stand up for themselves not having Nike runners due to they will grow out of them in 3 months and the unethical practices of Nike re child labour.

The parents let the kids get away with a lot - kids shout at their parents,
parents shout back, but the kid still gets what it wants.

If either of mine were to do that they would sent to thier room right away
and most certainly would not get thier way.

Love is brought! (3 year olds with Nintendo DS)
that is madness, mine only got thiers this year, a 3 year old can't mind an expensive hand held electronics

A big culture of keeping up with the Jones'
not where I live or in how I raise my children

I think you are making sweeping statements and tbh they don't hold water.
By difference I didn't mean for people to have a go I meant in how culturally children are expected to behave and treated.

I'm not sure of the relevance of refuting posters' observations with your own personal experience. The OP was just a couple of fleeting observations by a parent who'd spent a short amount of time in several countries and forum members were then encouraged to give their own impressions.

As soon as one person did you more or less jumped on her post shouting "you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong!"

What's the point, exactly?

bogtotty

Thaedydal wrote: »

On reading it I was wondering how parents who have came to this country over the last 7 years or so have dealt with the differences in culture.

Also wondering why Fran's response to this question would be picked apart and shot down? Any opinion regarding cultural differences are bound to be a bit sweeping, it doesn't necessarily make them wholly false.

Nevyn

There is a difference between cultural mores and what we experience personally with a few people.

pickarooney

Thaedydal wrote: »

There is a difference between cultural mores and what we experience personally with a few people.

But this is exactly what the article in the OP is about!

iguana

Fran79 wrote: »

I wasn't having a go, but just making observations. The comments I made are based on my experience. Of the 20 or so parents I know, most of these comments would apply to 15-16 of them.

I appreciate that this is a small sample, but for that sample I stand by what I said.

Ok but I'm an Irish person living in England and every single thing you have described I have experienced with my neighbours in North London.

parsi

If I had to generalise I'd find the following:

- Irish adults are much less considerate towards families / children than France (for instance),

- There _seems_ to be an undercurrent of "will somebody think of the children" whenever it suits - I think we may pick this from the UK rubbish media,

- As a country it appears we value the family (in whatever format) less and seem to be aimed at the affluent singletons/couples,

- there seems to be more sexualisation of younger kids than would be visible in other European countries - I don't think it's right seeing 6-8yr old girls in Playboy clothes or skimpy outfits like some girl band.

However there is also the possibility (or probability) that the recent tiger years have made us less comfortable with ourselves and more inclined to try and buy comfort / status / peace&quiet but at a personal / cultural cost.

Ickle Magoo

Thaedydal wrote: »

No bother, I found that people will be more likely to read it if it's quoted here.

On reading it I was wondering how parents who have came to this country over the last 7 years or so have dealt with the differences in culture.

Religion aside, I don't notice any significant differences in parenting culture at all.

I rang off, and remembered my sensible, Scottish roots.

Lol...:rolleyes:

silverharp

on the plus side when my continental inlaws visit, they always comment on how the dads here seem much more involved with their kids then they are used to seeing. cant be all bad.

Davidth88

Some interesting posts

I wasn't posting this to ' slag ' Irish parenting , I just wanted to see if people had experienced other cultures , and maybe we could learn from them.

I think , if we could learn from the Italians/French how to dine , and socialise with our kids then this would help our drinking habits perhaps ?

deisemum

From personal experience I've found the Greeks and Spanish extremely loud, lots of shouting at each other when they interact. Give me the quieter Irish or British family anyday.

Davidth88

Interesting follow on , which sort of agrees with a lot of the posters .

I sort of like the idea of removing child benefit from people who let their kids ' misbehave ' but that's rather subjective isn't it ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/8582669.stm

Middle class parents are attempting to "buy off" their children with computers and TVs and encouraging bad behaviour, a teachers' union leader has warned.
Some children failed to respect authority or consider the needs of other pupils after leading "isolated lives" at home, said Dr Mary Bousted.
The Association of Teachers and Lecturers general secretary spoke ahead of the union's conference next week.
She suggested some children were not taught how to "give and take".
Other members of the ATL union will call for parents to be stripped of child benefits if they fail to keep their children under control.

Often it's the well-off middle classes that buy off their children through the computer and the TV, that then isolates them within the home, and then they're surprised when their child isn't coming to school ready to learn
DR Mary Bousted
Dr Bousted said parents had a "duty to bring their child up so that they understand how they should behave in school, respecting authority and the right of other pupils in the class to learn".
She said some parents failed to "support the right of the teacher to teach".
The general secretary suggested that it was the relatively wealthy parents who were guilty of failing to teach these social skills to their children.
"Often it's the well-off middle classes that buy off their children through the computer and the TV, that then isolates them within the home, and then they're surprised when their child isn't coming to school ready to learn."
She continued: "Many teachers feel they are working their socks off under an extremely rigid accountability framework to get children to learn but are not being supported by home."
A motion, being putting forward by the union's Cheshire branch at the conference in Manchester, will also call for parents of badly-behaved children to attend parenting classes as well as saying that an element of child benefit should be conditional on children being well behaved in school.
Dr Bousted acknowledged that the motion was "quite extreme" but she added: "If you go into a pet shop you have to prove that you are able to take care of a dog before they will sell you a puppy, but there is nothing for being a parent unless you are so awful the state takes your child away from you."