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Where/how are you selling your original music?

  • 14-03-2010 9:07pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 ✭✭✭


    I'm finalising my ecommerce set up for my new website (physical & download music merchandise) and thought I'd check in on ye all. Anyone selling stuff fancy sharing their good and bad experiences?


Comments

  • Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


    What exactly is your site all about?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 ✭✭✭frobisher


    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    What exactly is your site all about?

    It's a site for my own music. I'm interested in any and all ecommerce solutions that people may be using for their music whatever the style, what ever the platform.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭old gregg


    would love to be able to offer some suggestions here. I'd posed a similar question here recently and hit a brick wall.

    All I can say from experience is that Tunecore offer abysmal support to their customers and Reverbnation seem better. Not much I know.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,748 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    i dont think the issue would be in the technicalities of selling music online - theres plenty of places, like tunecore, bandcamp etc etc. The more difficult part would be in getting people to your site to purchase the material.

    Lots of bands are looking at developing their own social networks through which to build an online fanbase of people interested in their music. Things have changed in how people view music (many expect free things for example) plus online retail has never been like its offline counterpart. Its not just a case of being able to sell stuff off your site.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭i57dwun4yb1pt8


    i think the days of selling music as a product are dead and gone .

    its was all about " wow what an album i paid for , I got something great there - lets go see em do it live "

    now
    its 20 gigs of download or "passed on by a mate" free stuff -
    and " ok i like that song by that act , and that one by that , and their music is good - so id like to see them in the flesh - but they come across as boring divs - why bother going to see them - ENTERTAIN ME AND i MAY GO SEE YOU !"

    its about live , live , live now -
    with the show and the merchandise at the fore.

    now its YOU - the creator and personality and the show that you are selling
    not the music .


    established acts and major presences like GAGA will always sell ,

    but the average middle of the road act will have to have great show
    and or film / tv soundtrack exposure

    as well as an "interesting personality " to make it very big.

    expect to see more wackiness and drug taking / mayhem in your future acts.
    the new acts of today are going to have to work their asses of to make money from it now.

    thats why Xfactor is so big - the exposure , the exposure , the exposure.
    you could do it with any acts -and they do.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 ✭✭✭frobisher


    I'm trying to talk about the ins and outs of potential solutions, not the problems! And while there are many services out there they you can't just bundle them together in one bag. They offer the same end product but they get there in different ways.

    Dadumtish: Hasn't it always been that way, at least to some extent?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 181 ✭✭musicformedia


    Selling and licensing my tracks on my website - www.sonicoctave.com

    I also license music on partnersinrhyme.com, musicloops.com, audiojungle.net, audiosparx.com, productiontrax.com, pumpaudio.com, youlicense.com etc.

    Maybe you're talking about just selling your album and single rather than licensing are you?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 ✭✭✭frobisher


    Selling and licensing my tracks on my website - www.sonicoctave.com

    I also license music on partnersinrhyme.com, musicloops.com, audiojungle.net, audiosparx.com, productiontrax.com, pumpaudio.com, youlicense.com etc.

    Maybe you're talking about just selling your album and single rather than licensing are you?

    I'm actually very interested in what anyone is doing to generate revenue through and around their original music. Music retail might be more directly relevant to me but licensing is something I'll be delving into, although it'll be of songs of a more traditional structure rather than sound track pieces.

    How are those sites going for you and which ones perform best?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 181 ✭✭musicformedia


    frobisher wrote: »
    I'm actually very interested in what anyone is doing to generate revenue through and around their original music. Music retail might be more directly relevant to me but licensing is something I'll be delving into, although it'll be of songs of a more traditional structure rather than sound track pieces.

    How are those sites going for you and which ones perform best?

    Sites are goin well - usually make up to $500 per month on music licensing between about 40-50 tracks. Music licensing is a massive money pot if you have some good tracks :)

    A lot of people license their music which isn't "soundtrack" related - think about it - theres hundreds of ads out there that use pop/rock music for them, and they all need new music :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 ✭✭✭frobisher


    A lot of people license their music which isn't "soundtrack" related - think about it - theres hundreds of ads out there that use pop/rock music for them, and they all need new music :)

    That's the licensing avenue I'm interested in. But without having delved in yet I wondered how much demand there would be. I have non vocal masters of all my tracks for this very reason.

    Sounds like your doing good. Delighted to hear it :-)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 181 ✭✭musicformedia


    frobisher wrote: »
    That's the licensing avenue I'm interested in. But without having delved in yet I wondered how much demand there would be. I have non vocal masters of all my tracks for this very reason.

    Sounds like your doing good. Delighted to hear it :-)

    I read lately that 1/3 of the entire music industry in America is music licensing. Goes to show how big it is. What I would do if you want to get your feet wet, is join audiojungle.net and upload a track or two. You get a good idea with sales there as to how popular your tracks would be

    Heres a blog post I wrote on selling music online, you might find it beneficial:
    http://filmandgamecomposers.com/blog/?p=360

    Instrumental versions, aswell as 30sec, 60sec and 1 minute versions will do well :)

    Any questions just ask


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭i57dwun4yb1pt8


    frobisher wrote: »
    I'm trying to talk about the ins and outs of potential solutions, not the problems! And while there are many services out there they you can't just bundle them together in one bag. They offer the same end product but they get there in different ways.

    Dadumtish: Hasn't it always been that way, at least to some extent?

    sorry , didnt mean to hijack your thread - but all these technical solutions
    are not much use if you dont get anyone to become interested in YOU as a person / performer / personality - to go to your website.

    and its a billion times more prevalent than it was when music had to be paid for.


    id say youd do alot better suddenly developing a penchant for dolphin sex
    or heroin

    or on a more serious note - maybe green issues / amnesty international ( BONO is no fool ;-) ) - or save the whale

    whens the last time anyone with a personality made music ?
    look how big GAGA has become already - people are hungry for something with character - cos any C.unt can make music nowadays - and that includes myself ;-)

    i will stop on your thread now - but its something to consider.

    sorry again !


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    i have not much to add really except to say digital sales overall are down in the past two quarters (in electronic music anyway).
    If possible don't go through aggregators. If you're stuff is good enough you don't need them.

    oh and say what you will about gaga, but I genuinely enjoy hearing her music on the radio or television. It's so so so so far above the average dreck that you hear. A guilty pleasure I guess.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭i57dwun4yb1pt8


    oh im not knocking GAGA - i think she great .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 801 ✭✭✭PMI


    Demand....

    Crowd Following!! hassling you for next tracks before they've even been written....

    then point them to your site / itunes etc.. and off you go :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 535 ✭✭✭woodsdenis


    frobisher wrote: »
    I'm actually very interested in what anyone is doing to generate revenue through and around their original music. Music retail might be more directly relevant to me but licensing is something I'll be delving into, although it'll be of songs of a more traditional structure rather than sound track pieces.

    How are those sites going for you and which ones perform best?

    Licensing ALL music is big business. There is as big a market these days for songs aswell as instrumentals. There are a number of things to look out for though.

    1. Re titling libraries. Pump is the biggest of these. Basically what it means is you submit a song called "I Love you". This has been registered by you with IMRO with this title. Pump will then rename it"I Love you too" and register themselves as the publisher so they can collect their share of that income. Therefore if they get a gig for the song they win.

    What's the problem you say?

    Re-titling libraries are non-exclusive so you can submit this song to as many as you want. They will all re-title with a different name and claim the publishing for their own library if they license it. The issue arises when you have the same track on different libraries with different names. Music Supervisors hate them as they they get duplicate pitches, also you can get into a situation where different libraries are undercutting each other with the same track. There is a potential nightmare when digital watermarking comes into regular use. How on earth do you distinguish where the publishing goes to if there are 10 different publishers claiming an interest with 10 different names. One of the biggest networks in the States and many Music Supervisors will not deal with retitled libraries.

    2. Royalty free. You will get NO PRO money. They sell your music like this.

    3. Exclusive. If a Library is exclusive, your music and any sync fees and MCPS can be theirs forever. Check the contracts very carefully.

    There are no ideal situations in all of this. I would recommend any bands
    with songs to sign non-exclusive/no re-titling/no mechanical deals with options to withdraw tracks when they want. If you dont you could end up in a huge mess if you were signed:eek:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    woodsdenis wrote: »
    Licensing ALL music is big business. There is as big a market these days for songs aswell as instrumentals. There are a number of things to look out for though.

    1. Re titling libraries. Pump is the biggest of these. Basically what it means is you submit a song called "I Love you". This has been registered by you with IMRO with this title. Pump will then rename it"I Love you too" and register themselves as the publisher so they can collect their share of that income. Therefore if they get a gig for the song they win.

    What's the problem you say?

    Re-titling libraries are non-exclusive so you can submit this song to as many as you want. They will all retitle with a different name and claim the publishing. The issue arises when you have the same track on different libraries with different names. Music Supervisors hate them as they they get duplicate pitches, also you can get into a situation where different libraries are undercutting each other with the same track. There is a potential nightmare when digital watermarking comes into regular use. How on earth do you distinguish where the publishing goes to if there are 10 different publishers claiming an interest with 10 different names. One of the biggest networks in the States and many Music Supervisors will not deal with retitled libraries.

    2. Royalty free. You will get NO PRO money. They sell your music like this.

    3. Exclusive. If a Library is exclusive, your music and any sync fees and MCPS can be theirs forever. Check the contracts very carefully.

    There are no ideal situations in all of this. I would recommend any bands
    with songs to sign non-exclusive/no re-titling/no mechanical deals with options to withdraw tracks when they want. If you dont you could end up in a huge mess if you were signed:eek:

    Jeez ..... I didn't know this shizit even went on.... we really are phucked aren't we ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 297 ✭✭iMADEtheBBC


    This is very informative - big thanks to the people sharing this information.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 535 ✭✭✭woodsdenis


    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    Jeez ..... I didn't know this shizit even went on.... we really are phucked aren't we ?

    There is nothing wrong with any of these practices as long as you know what
    you are getting into. The fact of the matter is that music as a commodity has been devalued substantially. The reason is simple, it is much cheaper to create than it used to be. The original Library Music libraries really cant compete with the online ones for volume,quality of content however is a different matter. You pay for what you get.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 ✭✭✭frobisher


    Jaysus Dadumtish....... where did it all go wrong?! :pac::pac::pac: Got any of that heroin for me? I need an angle for this new press release :-)

    Licensing is very interesting. Generating revenue business to business is probably easier in a lot of industries than dealing with the great unwashed. But no one ever got a blow job in a limo because of their acoustic guitar noodling was used on a day spa's promo video. :cool::cool::cool:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17 msl


    I think you'd be surprised, you can make a fair amount if your lucky and have the right material with licensing. The vast amount of available content makes it kinda hard though. Pump used to be alright, but they recently upped their take to 70%, so you only get a measly 30% which is outrageous. Rumblefish are supposed to be good I'm going to try them with some new material I have.

    This is a good resource for anyone interested: musiclibraryreport.com/

    As for selling your music yourself on your own site Kagi offer e-commerce solutions for a reasonable price.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 ✭✭✭frobisher


    msl wrote: »
    I think you'd be surprised, you can make a fair amount if your lucky and have the right material with licensing. The vast amount of available content makes it kinda hard though. Pump used to be alright, but they recently upped their take to 70%, so you only get a measly 30% which is outrageous. Rumblefish are supposed to be good I'm going to try them with some new material I have.

    This is a good resource for anyone interested: musiclibraryreport.com/

    As for selling your music yourself on your own site Kagi offer e-commerce solutions for a reasonable price.

    I'll take some of the vocal free mixes I did and see if I can find some nice sections that might be suitable. Are there standard lengths and formulas required?

    That e-commerce site is quite competetive. I'm presently leaning towards http://www.e-junkie.com/ej/pricing.htm as I'm selling a low amount of products which makes it even cheaper.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17 msl


    I don't have that much experience with libraries but I don't think theres a formula as such, they are looking for high quality material, presented professionally. They are not really looking for your junk throw away tracks! Doesn't have be instrumental either, though I always say in the description that an instrumental version is available.

    I haven't bothered with selling my music on my own site, those expenses even the cheep one you linked all start to add up, and if your not selling x amount per month your losing. And at the end of the day, I'm not Radiohead, who the hell knows me or my website, ya know. So I just use an aggregator, Ditto Music.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 ✭✭✭frobisher


    msl wrote: »
    I don't have that much experience with libraries but I don't think theres a formula as such, they are looking for high quality material, presented professionally. They are not really looking for your junk throw away tracks! Doesn't have be instrumental either, though I always say in the description that an instrumental version is available.

    I haven't bothered with selling my music on my own site, those expenses even the cheep one you linked all start to add up, and if your not selling x amount per month your losing. And at the end of the day, I'm not Radiohead, who the hell knows me or my website, ya know. So I just use an aggregator, Ditto Music.

    Ditto seem like a good aggregator, their rates are certainly good and they have spotify, which I like. I will be distributing through aggregators for all the ubiquitous digital outlets but I'll be driving as much sales traffic to my own site as possible. When you're starting off with sales in 00's rather than 000's every tiny bit counts and I don't like the cut that many of the outlets take. You have to be on iTunes etc but you can't sell special editions, tee shirts, vinyl and other hardware through them.

    As an independent artist in this day and age your URL is possibly your biggest non-musical asset, the more you can centralize what you do around it the better. If you end up pairing with a label or win the lotto to give your self a proper PR push then it's a different kettle of ball games. But until then if you want to win fans for your music and get a return on your work/talent/time/investment then you need to be like the farmer who ploughs the mud to grow his spuds then sells them himself at the market. My E-junkie shopping cart system means that for €3.66 a month I can sell an MP3 to any quantity without worrying about delivery or bandwith problems and securely sell anything else related that I think someone might buy. That's a good investment in my books. And if iTunes/myspace etc go tits up tomorrow you still have your own mailing list and your own means to sell on your own music. Simple and sustainable. Presuming of course that your spuds aren't ****e.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17 msl


    Yeah I know what your talking about, we're all in the same boat, and things are yet to settle down in this "new order". I just noticed that the $5 per month is for only 50mb, so thats only like one ep at 320kbps... Anyway I'm not too happy about the dominance of single players in the market either, like iTunes and esp Beatport in edm, but what can you do.

    So for my latest release (6 track ep), I'm giving away one of the tracks as a 128k mp3 to whoever joins my mailing list.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 ✭✭✭frobisher


    msl wrote: »
    I haven't bothered with selling my music on my own site, those expenses even the cheep one you linked all start to add up, and if your not selling x amount per month your losing. And at the end of the day, I'm not Radiohead, who the hell knows me or my website, ya know. So I just use an aggregator, Ditto Music.

    What's your experience been like with Ditto Music? I'm very close to going with them as my aggregator choice but their website is buggy and their non use of spell czech doesn't inspire confidence. Have they been good?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17 msl


    Don't know yet, just sent them a release a few weeks ago, so I'll know soon enough. I'm a bit nervous too (yes the dashboard when your signed in is kinda buggy) more about if they'll be around in a year! I was on dancerecords.com and they went down last year, and just left everybody hanging, not good. But I will say so far they have great customer support, and have done everything they can to help me over the phone when I had a few problems and questions. My other choice would have been to go with AWAL who seem way more traditional (15% take, mail your cd in, quarterly accounts, etc), hopefully I won't live to regret my decision. At least they don't charge for take down so if it doesn't work out I'll switch.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 ✭✭✭frobisher


    msl wrote: »
    Don't know yet, just sent them a release a few weeks ago, so I'll know soon enough. I'm a bit nervous too (yes the dashboard when your signed in is kinda buggy) more about if they'll be around in a year! I was on dancerecords.com and they went down last year, and just left everybody hanging, not good. But I will say so far they have great customer support, and have done everything they can to help me over the phone when I had a few problems and questions. My other choice would have been to go with AWAL who seem way more traditional (15% take, mail your cd in, quarterly accounts, etc), hopefully I won't live to regret my decision. At least they don't charge for take down so if it doesn't work out I'll switch.

    There are mixed reports about them dotted around the net. BUt they tick all my boxes so I might take the risk **gulp**


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 ✭✭✭frobisher


    frobisher wrote: »
    There are mixed reports about them dotted around the net. BUt they tick all my boxes so I might take the risk **gulp**

    I've written directly to the who runs the company. Hopefully he will get back and let me know all is okay with Ditto Music.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭old gregg


    I looked at Ditto recently and encountered many of the web site bugs that others complain of. I could not trust it enough to actually deal with a whole transaction (input music information, upload files, take my money) so I contacted the people who run it. I can't say I was inspired by the response. I never trust people who pretend I'm the first person to have problems with their site when it's a well known issue and shoudl be addressed rather than fobbing customers off.

    Sadly I then went with Tunecore. Disaster. Avoid at all costs.

    In hindsight I wish I'd looked harder at feiyr.com or gone with my gut instinct and worked with ReverbNation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 ✭✭✭frobisher


    old gregg wrote: »
    I looked at Ditto recently and encountered many of the web site bugs that others complain of. I could not trust it enough to actually deal with a whole transaction (input music information, upload files, take my money) so I contacted the people who run it. I can't say I was inspired by the response. I never trust people who pretend I'm the first person to have problems with their site when it's a well known issue and shoudl be addressed rather than fobbing customers off.

    Sadly I then went with Tunecore. Disaster. Avoid at all costs.

    In hindsight I wish I'd looked harder at feiyr.com or gone with my gut instinct and worked with ReverbNation.

    I'm going to use Reverbnation for a few widgets on my main site. I like what they offer for fan email collection and newsletter contact. I also like the gig listings widget and the fact that you can provide fans with widgets to put anywhere. All their widgets from the above to the store and video ones, can all be had without their branding on it for US$30 per annum. Good value when you also use their fan email system which is free for the first 500 addresses and includes a many mailouts as you want.

    They've just announced more stores on their distribution, which includes Spotify, a channel I regard as essential. This puts them in the frame for me more than ever. But if Ditto can re-assure me, quickly, I'll give them a pop.

    What do you know of feiyr.com ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭old gregg


    all I know about feiyr.com is that they are German, focus mostly on Europe and electronic music. I'd seen them recommended somewhere but forgot to go back to them when it was decision time for my most recent project.

    I've been using some of the Reverbnation widgets and find them very straight forward to use. The stuff like the gig listings and jukebox that links in with facebook has been somewhat beneficial I think. Signed up for the fanmail thing but as ever feel weird about using it, not logic just neurosis on my part.

    If I could turn back time I'd do it all through Reverbnation I reckon.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 ✭✭✭frobisher


    old gregg wrote: »
    I've been using some of the Reverbnation widgets and find them very straight forward to use. The stuff like the gig listings and jukebox that links in with facebook has been somewhat beneficial I think. Signed up for the fanmail thing but as ever feel weird about using it, not logic just neurosis on my part.

    If I could turn back time I'd do it all through Reverbnation I reckon.

    You don't like the program or you don't like sending the mails out?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭old gregg


    sending the mails out


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 ✭✭✭frobisher


    old gregg wrote: »
    sending the mails out

    I don't suffer from such modestly :p:p:p


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17 msl


    Yeah feiyr.com looks pretty interesting, what is there take %? They make you register before divulging that, cheeky. Aside from the website interface issues with Ditto I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with them, I'll find out soon enough anyway and report back. My release with them should be live in the next 10 days.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭old gregg


    frobisher wrote: »
    I don't suffer from such modestly :p:p:p
    I envy you that. I played in Dublin on Friday night and squirmed through folks coming up to me afterwards and telling me they enjoyed the music. Not doing myself any favours I know.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭Rockshamrover


    Whotune.com looks interesting.

    http://www.whotune.com/


  • Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


    old gregg wrote: »
    I envy you that. I played in Dublin on Friday night and squirmed through folks coming up to me afterwards and telling me they enjoyed the music. Not doing myself any favours I know.

    Modesty isn't an attractive trait in someone on a stage, IMO.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,759 ✭✭✭Neurojazz


    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    Modesty isn't an attractive trait in someone on a stage, IMO.

    A big tip for introverts.

    Wear some sunglasses and your able to lift your head up and feel safer...

    If you think that's mad - go and try it in a place where you are stepping out of your comfort zone...

    Then after about 3-4 gigs you'll not need them and then let that confidence bounce back into the music.


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  • Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


    Neurojazz wrote: »
    A big tip for introverts.

    Wear some sunglasses and your able to lift your head up and feel safer...

    If you think that's mad - go and try it in a place where you are stepping out of your comfort zone...

    Then after about 3-4 gigs you'll not need them and then let that confidence bounce back into the music.

    Very good tip!

    Someone should start a coping with stagefright thread in the bands/musicians sub.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭old gregg


    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    Modesty isn't an attractive trait in someone on a stage, IMO.
    ahh not the case here. I've been doing live work since 1977. I don't have a problem being on stage. the modesty is before and afterwards.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,759 ✭✭✭Neurojazz


    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    Very good tip!

    Someone should start a coping with stagefright thread in the bands/musicians sub.

    I had some great tips from a friend who was on the faking it program. They had a coach who took them through confidence building exercises and all that what-not.

    There probably is a thread somewhere buried with all this stuff already ;)


  • Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


    old gregg wrote: »
    ahh not the case here. I've been doing live work since 1977. I don't have a problem being on stage. the modesty is before and afterwards.

    Have you tried drugs?

    ;)

    seriously though, get some lackeys.

    They'll sort you out.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭old gregg


    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    Have you tried drugs?

    ;)

    seriously though, get some lackeys.

    They'll sort you out.
    ahh drugs .... :p drugs are bad, mkay.

    seriously though .. I've never once had as much as sip of beer on the day of a performance, ever.
    Afterwards is a different kettle of fish though. green packed in gig bag.
    Don't even carry my own gear either since back injury so have folks doing everything except playing.

    Anyway, this is taking things away from the original OPs thread :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 183 ✭✭caesura


    BUMP...as promised in my Music Licensing thread ;)


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