INFERNO RANBAT 8 Survey

Azza

Okay I think its about time we got another Inferno Ranbat under way (may well be our last before SSF IV).

I think most people are happy with the format of the competition being a best of 3 in both the group stages and double elimination. So I think our ruleset is pretty much sorted.

But there is other stuff up for debate.

First up is the date.
Simply enough choose from the dates shown above in the pool.
Bare in mind that Vaticon is on from Firday 26th to Sunday 28th of March and is hosting an SF IV competition.

Secondly.
There has been dicussion in that other thread about running the events more regularly like once a month at a roughly consistent time each month (like the last Saturday of each month) to make planing easier. I'm all for this. Post your suggested week of the month up. Assuming no other major gaming event is on a around the same date you can assume this is when we run the event.

Thirdly
Seems people think the term Ranbat is not a correct term for the events we run and possible want the name changed. Suggest what you want here.

Fourth
Again some discussions on the pricing structure of the event. Do we need another vote on this?

Fifth
Farz is gay. Discuss and provide supporting evidence.

Ry

First (Date):
Next week is good for me so I said 20th of March

Second (Regularity):
Regular sounds great to me. Once a month would be fun and mean we're getting together actively more often which will help all of us improve our game.

Thirdly (Ranbat?):
Don't see anything wrong with it as that's what it is. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ranbat On reading Dreddy's post though maybe calling it something like Street Fighter 4 Tournament is better as people who aren't regular to the board or whatever who hear about it will understand it instantly and not just think "wtf is ranbat?".

Fourth (Price):
I think a tenner a head maybe would be grand. People are coming for the larger scale of it and guaranteed turnout and chance to play others who don't necessarily turn up to Saturday Casuals regularly rather than the prize pot so no need to be higher than that I think. Also if they don't turn up their "Rank" goes down (OH NOES!). I know more people than would care to admit do care about this though so it's another reason the money doesn't matter as much towards getting them to turn up or not.

Fifth:
If Daigo says it, it must be true.

Dreddybajs

I'm okay with any of the dates, it'd be nice to have it done sooner rather than later though imo. I'm okay to reducing the price to 10 euro total too (though I have no problem with it at 15 either).

And yeah, I don't think the use of the term ranbat is doing us any good at all...just call it a street fighter 4 tournament.

Ramza

I personally don't mind which date the next one is on

I haven't been to an event so I can't really say, but I think once a month is grand. That way I can come at least a month and when I do it will be on tournament day

Well unless you're keeping actual points/scores and have rankings then it's not really a ranking battle.

bush

Im ok with any date and dont mind what week in the month it is regularly on. Price is fine as is. I also hate the term ranbat :pac: I just call it a tournament.

chopperbyrne

I cannot make next weekend at all so I voted for the 3rd of April. Day before Easter so I doubt anyone has any plans.

Price doesn't bother me, but if people think €10 will go some way to bringing more players in, then why not.

Never liked the term ranbat and always just call them competitions or tournaments.

It goes without saying that FAR2 IS PUNCH!

Speed Boat

On the name thing, I only found out what it means via this thread. That said, I'd never looked into it.

As someone new to the scene/outsider a Tourney or Competition would make more sense as I'd know what's going on straight away!

Ten quid seems fair as a price.

K.O.Kiki

A tenner total, please. I'm sure in this climate the poorer folks could use that.

Xinkai

I'm ok with any.

Price seems ok.

Back forward GAY.

A-Trak

My 2c:

Once a month? - €12.50 entry:
As many casual and tourney machines that are required - the 12.50 will cover both console rental for all tourney and casual machines: Also a nominal amount from entry fee taken for promotion of events, (Posters, promotion, facebook targeted advertising etc, full disclose here on boards regards costs (not for profit.)

Scheduling on a given Saturday. (2nd Sat of every month for example) Calendar for next three months picked and dates decided, aligned with other international tournies, (Stunfest, Dragonslayers and other events.

Poll / thread posted here and NeoEmpire advising of dates, allows for shift of events, public holidays etc and gauging of numbers.
Parallel announcement else where as required, (ooowmykneecaps been playing a blinder in this respect already.)

Change name to something blatantly obvious, both to simplify posters, appeal to new players, and specific to each event. (I myself had taken place in 3 ranbats before I actually knew what a ranbat stood for, just assumed it was nerd for somethng)
My first thought would be month orientated, as this gives a clear message -

Ireland Streetfighter 4 tourney:
February Fury -
March Mayhem -
April Annihilation -
Etc, (There'a folk here that can dream up a cleverer, smarter way etc.)

I think Azza has has more or less singly handedly established the tourney in the south, (To the detriment of his own performance, he won the only touney he didn't organise.)

What next?
Establish some sort of committee or board, of people who are passionate, knowledgeable and talented in all of the above regards - task them with organising all of this each month. There's some seriously talented folk here in this forum.

No limits to anyone joining this committee, if you can put up a flyer in a college soc, or give lifts to new venues or tell your arsehole of a housemate that Call of duty gay, and they'd be better off getting stick with pink buttons and playing a chines girl who kicks like a bird, but there needs to be people to drive this.


TL/DR?
Harder better faster more frequent and organised tournaments.
If you're eating waffles and cereal whilst on MSN & reading this at 5am, you can help.
(In before Farz is gay, A-Trak is now Ropey / Cunny with is massive posts and Terry is a Nazi.

Dreddybajs

Good idea, was just thinking coco pops would be a good idea!

edit: and yeah, sounds like a good plan, I'm in

Kirby

Once a month is a great idea. We should start as we mean to go on so I think this first date is important. The last Saturday in every month sounds good to me. I voted for the 20th because it suits me more, but we should probably do the last saturday of the month. The 27th is probably the best option overall. Perhaps not in march, but if we are running it regularly you have to look at the big picture.

Regarding the name, renaming it makes sense. The regulars are all in the know, but you grow your scene by new people joining so some transparency would be good. Let people know whats going on just by seeing the name.

I like A-trak's naming system. Call it "Street Fighter 4 Ireland Tournament" or something and then add a flavoured name for each month.

Regarding money, Lets keep it as an even figure.
12.50 might make sense on paper but logistically it would be annoying for people finding change. It's simpler for people and it means azza doesn't have to deal in coins.

Some of us are out of work at the moment so I think a tenner would suit the most amount of people. Besides, everyone wants to win, but there are easier ways of making money. Most people come for the tourney atmosphere.

Doctor DooM

My interwebs are down so will keep this short.
I agree more regular tournaments would be great. I also agree 15 would be too much for once a month for people. I think it'd be great if we could get the northern tournaments staggered with ours. Renaming to something obvious and humorous or hypey is very pro wrestling and it's good enough for jwong...

January new years beatings


February valentines massacre

March melee

April's cruel

May day

June summer slaughter

July jeopary

August armageddon

Etc.

Also I think farz's sexuality is definitely uncertain.

BanjoB

What Atrak said
Personally though would def be nice to have it on a regular monthly basis. I get zero offline experience down here in Waterford becos nobody plays street fighter 4!!. I even joined the gaming society in college to see if there's any interest but nope, its all FPS's!!. So yeah id love the idea of comin up to a tournie each month.
Price is ok with me too but the name change is most important to appeal to any new players.

Azza

Point 2 If we are going with regular tournaments last week in the month seems to be the best bet.

Point 3 As for name, I think we should just keep the Inferno part and just call it Inferno Street Fighter 4 Tournament and have a sub title for each successive event like Doom suggested.

Point 4 I'm in the favor of the pricing structure staying as it is, even with my lack of job and recession I don't think its that unreasonable as it is. I can see the picture from both sides of views. Generally speaking people who have a reasonable but not certain chance of winning the event want a decent prize so they are willing to pay the higher entry fee. People who don't probably feel like they are just burning money and so want to reduce the loss too a more reasonable level. Its also true that the current price point puts some people off coming altogether. These are all perfectly reasonable viewpoints.

I think its reasonable to assume that the people who don't come to our events but are aware of our them don't go either because have this weird but real phobia about attending events like this at first (Once they attend there first tournament they enjoy it and want to come back.) or they don't want to waste money because they don't feel they can do well. (its possibly a combination of the two)

While lowering the fee would help attract more players, chances are if people are not coming already they are not that seriously into the game or haven't heard of us yet. Getting them there by lowering the entry fee might make these people want to get serious about the game and over time increase the standard of play at the tournament to the point where they are confident enough at the game to be willing to pay a bigger entry fee for a bigger prize and feel that they are just not throwing away money.

I think the feeling among some is that we should build up the community first by keeping costs low and then look at upping the entry fee and prize money.

However my concern is that if we lower the fee its going stay permantly lower because they will be always more people less likely to win than having a reasonable chance of wining. Therefore the pricing structure will always have to cater for them.

If you don't think this is true, look at the scene so so far. We have roughly the same top group of players from the start while we have roughly the same lower group since the begining. I can think of only one player from the lower group that has signficantly improved at all to move up and maybe even surpass some of the players in the upper group. To say there has been no improvement would be of course totally unfair, some people have got slightly better and some players are making small but consistent steps at getting better. However at the same time the upper group is not exactly idling and its getting better as well. There also has been other additional good players arriving on the scene but these are people who came into the scene good already not players who have worked there wake way up. Of course some of the current players might not be that interested in improving they just enjoy the events and thats fine but one would again generally assume they will always want a low an entry fee as possible (there is going be exceptions each way of course).

Having said all that I will go with whatever the majority wants.
If we do change the pricing structure then like Kirby said it would be best to have it as even amount so dealing with lots of coins isn't an issue.

Ry

I think "Inferno" is a bit pointless to be honest. We're not exactly all setting ourselves on fire.

Just call it National Street Fighter League as it is national and a league and we can abbreviate to NSFL for lolz ;D If you really wanna do it proper it'd be Irish National Street Fighter League cuz we always have to stick an "I" at the start of any acronyms don't we to make it our own .

I stick by 10 quid entry. I think it's silly having an entry fee higher than events like WGC etc when we're not there yet in size by any stretch. Also after actually chatting to some of the Northern lads about it also they made it very clear that the prize pot was the last reason they consider when coming down to play and has no effect on their decision to or not.

In any case a poll perhaps to sort this one out may be best.

Azza

Ry wrote:

I think "Inferno" is a bit pointless to be honest. We're not exactly all setting ourselves on fire.

Just call it National Street Fighter League as it is national and a league and we can abbreviate to NSFL for lolz ;D If you really wanna do it proper it'd be Irish National Street Fighter League cuz we always have to stick an "I" at the start of any acronyms don't we to make it our own .

I stick by 10 quid entry. I think it's silly having an entry fee higher than events like WGC etc when we're not there yet in size by any stretch. Also after actually chatting to some of the Northern lads about it also they made it very clear that the prize pot was the last reason they consider when coming down to play and has no effect on their decision to or not.

The Inferno thing came about as a joke about the heat of the XGC. As for having league in the name, its not a league though its more like a cup competition. More Champions League or Heinekin Cup type of deal. Maybe cup would be better suited for the name.

I don't see how you can compare the current tournaments to the WCG (which is not running this year in Ireland). Bare in mind the reason why they where bigger is because they where a multi-game/platform event. The current SF IV scene in Ireland has more than likely the largest competitive player base in any 1v1 based multiplayer game in Ireland, there being probably around 40+ players willing to travel to events. I would not be honestly suprised if even popular multiplayer shooters in Ireland could not match that numbers (there honestly seems to be a decline in most gaming scenes in Ireland).

As for the northern lads maybe they have changed their minds (I know Blag said he did not mind having it lowered) but the last time I asked them about it they said they where fine with the current entry fee.

Ken B

I can't do next weekend, as I'm off to Satan's pit (Old Traffford) to watch the two worst teams in football......

Any time after that is cool and the gang.

chunkis

I would like to help out with the next event, i have a few ideas that could improve things, but before anything new gets introduced we need to fix the current problems.

here are a few things that need to be looked at,

The overall running of the event took too long, this can be improved with better planning throughout the groups and knock outs stages. Changing the format from double to single elim would make things run a lot quicker, double elimination is a long and tedious format, if it is to be used i think it should only be use for the top 8 onwards.

Too many screens were not being used last time and a lot of people were standing around for ages waiting to play, judges need to be in place to make sure everything keeps moving.

There was a big issue when it came to what version people were using last time, some people had xbox sticks some had ps3, the tournament should be on one format only, not both. It creates too many problems. I vote for xbox, since most people have xbox at home, for the ps3 owners i suggest getting your ps3 stick or pad dual modded or borrow a stick for the tournament, But from now on it should only be xbox, ps3s can be used for casuals.

The tvs at xgc have lag, all of them lag, there are no exceptions except some lag more than others lol. We need to replace some of the tvs with monitors for tournament play. At the very least we need to have one monitor or tv for the finals with no lag. We need to talk with the owners and see what they can do for us, if they cant do anything then we need to bring our own monitors.

Recording, we need to start recording stuff properly and getting our matches out there for people to see, keeping the name inferno is also essential, its been going on long enough now and its an established name, changing it will only put us back a step, we need to promote the name inferno as the premier street fighter event in ireland so when people hear its taking place they know to attend.

We also need to create a team of people who are going to organise and take charge of whats going on in our community, we don`t have any kind of stucture or organisation in place to make sure events keep happening. We need make sure that the community we have not only keeps going but gets stronger.

Anyway these things are better discussed in person, i will see you guys next week or at the V tournament.


Don`t forget its mothers day tomorrow

bush

chunkis wrote: »

The tvs at xgc have lag, all of them lag, there are no exceptions except some lag more than others lol. We need to replace some of the tvs with monitors for tournament play. At the very least we need to have one monitor or tv for the finals with no lag. We need to talk with the owners and see what they can do for us, if they cant do anything then we need to bring our own monitors.

I doubt they will get new tvs in. I doubt they would even let you bring your own tv in either to be honest.

Xinkai

If at all possible, we should go to GameSnash Live for Tournaments, everything down there was perfect.

Azza

Chunkis pretty much everything you have said has been brought up before.

Chunkis wrote:

The overall running of the event took too long, this can be improved with better planning throughout the groups and knock outs stages. Changing the format from double to single elim would make things run a lot quicker, double elimination is a long and tedious format, if it is to be used i think it should only be use for the top 8 onwards.

With regards the format double elimination is the perference. People felt this is the best value for money as it ensured those who went out in the group stages got more game time. People felt for what they paid only having a max garuntee of 3 matches was poor value for money.

Till recently we ran single elimination in the group stages but people felt it was too short so at the last event we changed it double elimination which everyone seems to have preferred (you being the first person to express an opinion to the contrary).

As for the time duration, one or two player from up norths have said they felt previous events ran on too long (we since have improved abit) but most others are happy enough with the duration, although a few have mentioned tha gap between group stages and the double elimination stage as being too long, but we are gradualy improving on that.

Chunkis wrote:

Too many screens were not being used last time and a lot of people were standing around for ages waiting to play, judges need to be in place to make sure everything keeps moving.

There was a few cases of people being missing or away for a short time that caused minor delays. Another factor is people with platform preferences waiting for there platform to become free or waiting to get their bowered controller back.

No one said anything about being forced to wait ages exception when the Asian chaps popped off for a food break and where late getting back.

Chunkis wrote:

There was a big issue when it came to what version people were using last time, some people had xbox sticks some had ps3, the tournament should be on one format only, not both. It creates too many problems. I vote for xbox, since most people have xbox at home, for the ps3 owners i suggest getting your ps3 stick or pad dual modded or borrow a stick for the tournament, But from now on it should only be xbox, ps3s can be used for casuals.

Ideally we would want to run it on PC because it can use controllers from both systems but thats a non starter at the XGC, they won't allow PC's upstairs or our competiton to be run downstairs. There is problems by using the Xbox 360 alone. I'd estimate about 35% of the player base are PS3 users. Some of them are pad users, which means switching to Xbox 360 pad is a massive handicap. Another reason we use both formats is that we have characters unlocked on a few PS3's. I'm not sure we would have enough Xbox's on there own with all the nessecary unlocks. We could work around it of course but it would add to delays. Secondly the layout of the venue would see all the players crammed into one half of the room which would not make for comfortable playing (its already tight for space). Another concern is the failure rate of Xbox 360's at the venue (they have had 5 Xbox 360's fail since our last 2 event, no doubt due to heat) which limits the spread of the consoles and contributes cramming players into a smaller space. Several of the Xbox 360's that had character unlocks have broken down. Finally the monitor lag is much smaller on the PS3's than on the TV's connected to the Xbox 360's. While I can play on either format I'd rather play on the less laggy TV's.

Chunkis wrote:

The tvs at xgc have lag, all of them lag, there are no exceptions except some lag more than others lol. We need to replace some of the tvs with monitors for tournament play. At the very least we need to have one monitor or tv for the finals with no lag. We need to talk with the owners and see what they can do for us, if they cant do anything then we need to bring our own monitors.

We already spoke to them, switching TV's or bringing our own is a non starter for them. They won't allow it. To reslove this we need another venue.

Chunkis wrote:

Recording, we need to start recording stuff properly and getting our matches out there for people to see, keeping the name inferno is also essential, its been going on long enough now and its an established name, changing it will only put us back a step, we need to promote the name inferno as the premier street fighter event in ireland so when people hear its taking place they know to attend.

I agree with this, the more videos we have up the better for promoting and growing the scene. Lack of camera's has been an issue. I can bring one additonal one now but we still need more.

Chunkis wrote:

We also need to create a team of people who are going to organise and take charge of whats going on in our community, we don't have any kind of stucture or organisation in place to make sure events keep happening. We need make sure that the community we have not only keeps going but gets stronger.

Well this thread is partly about doing that. We do sort have a structure in place in that we have these forums. But I think the next step is a proper website for the scene. The community is getting stronger, we are getting a steady stream of new posters here and turn outs at events has been rising slowly but surely. Of course more can be done but the scene on the whole is on the right track.

Sorry about wall of text.

D4RK ONION

Could we say at least once every 1.5 months? Once a month could be difficult for out of Dublin peoples.

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Also I think farz's sexuality is definitely uncertain.

It's funny how this is probably the most insulting thing you could have said!

chunkis wrote: »

The overall running of the event took too long, this can be improved with better planning throughout the groups and knock outs stages. Changing the format from double to single elim would make things run a lot quicker, double elimination is a long and tedious format, if it is to be used i think it should only be use for the top 8 onwards.

I'm also pro-double elimination, it's fairer for people who might come against cobelcog a bad match up earlier.

Kirby

Xinkai wrote: »

If at all possible, we should go to GameSnash Live for Tournaments, everything down there was perfect.

Good idea. The lads there seemed very amenable and open to helping us out.

However, would we have enough consoles to cater for 30+ people? I'm not sure.

Azza

I have good things about this Gamenash outfit but the problem may be accessibility to people from far away.


How much expense and travel time would it add from people traveling down from the North, or up from Limerick?
Is it viable for these people to make day trips back and forth, for some people this is required because they have work the next day.

Whats the venues max capacity?
Whats the cost?
How may consoles do they have?

Doctor DooM

No to tournaments in gamesnash imo. Not fair to most non dubs.

Will add more when I get back from dragon slayers.

D4RK ONION

Azza wrote: »

How much expense and travel time would it add from people traveling down from the North, or up from Limerick?

Quite a bit I'd imagine, you'd have to be coming into Dublin an hour earlier.

Is it viable for these people to make day trips back and forth, for some people this is required because they have work the next day.

Short answer, no to be honest. I'm grand cause I generally always find a couch to mooch and am made of money, but others, not so much.

K.O.Kiki

Chunkis wrote:

The overall running of the event took too long, this can be improved with better planning throughout the groups and knock outs stages. Changing the format from double to single elim would make things run a lot quicker, double elimination is a long and tedious format, if it is to be used i think it should only be use for the top 8 onwards.

Just to reiterate: it actually took us the same amount of time to run the previous 2 tournaments - RanBat6 was single elim, RanBat7 was double elim.

Azza

The reason it took less length was of better organisation.

One or two things delayed the double elimination stage.

When I was doing up the second round match ups Chopper and I got into a discussion about the match ups and this kinda delayed things for a few minutes.

But the major delay was with the Asians fellows who went to get food. They asked how long before the second round started. I misjudged the amount of time and told them like 30 minutes when really it was only 10-15 minutes before we ready for round two. However they took a little bit longer than the 30 minutes as well.

I'm always aware that people need to catch buses and asked a few people who might have to leave early but anyone I asked said time wasn't an issue.

I also was under the impression that people prefer the laid back kinda of approach, there wasn't too much rushing around.

If other people think its an issue anyway I can look into running into more tightly.

chopperbyrne

Just to set things straight, it's always been double elim in the second round. For the last comp, we changed the group stages to best 2/3 matches instead of just one match.

This added very little time on to the tournament as once people were sitting down playing, they tended to get through their matches quickly.

What we need to do is assign a group to a machine and they can play all their matches there (controller issues aside) and have one person in that group responsible for filling out the sheet.

Also we should stop double seeding the double-elim stage.

The seedings should be used for the initial group draw, but after that it should be group placings that decide who plays who in the last 16.

This will speed up the organisation of that side of the tournament.

I plan to do it this way at Vaticon, just to let everyone know.

There is not a chance that XGC will let us use our own TVs/monitors so that's a non-runner. The only other solution is a different venue, which would probably mean additional cost.

XGC may have it's problems, but it's cheap, accessible and has dozens of consoles.

Also vote no to tournaments in Dunboyne. It's less accessible to non-Dubs and those TVs are just like mine at home, which definitely has lag.

Last Saturday of the month for tournies sounds good, but we'd have to start from April as Vaticon is the day after the last Saturday in March.

Also Azza, you have often said on here you need help running the events, but when people offer on the day, you say you are fine or don't need help. Just start saying yes whenever someone offers a hand.

Azza

Chopperbyrne wrote:

What we need to do is assign a group to a machine and they can play all their matches there (controller issues aside) and have one person in that group responsible for filling out the sheet.

This is how its done at the moment. Although some people forget or get confused in filling out the sheet. But more or less thats how its done now.

Chopperbyrne wrote:

Also we should stop double seeding the double-elim stage.

The seedings should be used for the initial group draw, but after that it should be group placings that decide who plays who in the last 16.

This will speed up the organisation of that side of the tournament.

This actually does not take long. Only about 10-15 minute tops. Except last time you and I spent 10 minutes talking about it and confusing each other which caused abit of a delay.

I know you wanted to avoid having players who meet in the group stage kept apart for as long as possible but you there is not much point in doing seeds unless your going to do them the whole way true. All your doing is potentially allowing luck of the draw not player skill to infulence the outcome.

With the system you wanted to use you ensure that people that meet in the group stage can't meet again until the finals (assuming they win there games), but the top two seeds could meets as early as the second round.

The system I used means that people can meet again in the second round of double elimination but ensures the top seeds stay as part as long as possible (assuming they win there games). So first and second can't meet unless they get to the final and 1st and 4th can't meet unless they reach the semi's etc.

As for needing asistance, its not really required, it would just allow me to get some warm up games in. All I do is do the sign ups and take the money and do up the draw both of which I have asistence with from others . After that I annoucne the draw and get people to meet each other and again people asist with that. None of this is too difficult. After this its nothing until the second round draw. This takes a few minutes but not really that long but its nothing something I can't really ask for asistance with this as if people are unfamilar with the system it just leads to confusion like what happened to us the last time. Once the draw for the second round is done its plain sailing. Second round people can record the match results themsleves so its not that tough. Finally I just allocate the prize money as agreed at the end and go down and settle up with the XGC.

Kirby

Lads, you can't double seed. This is exactly what fifa did for the world cup play-off's and it's a joke.

By seeding players in the group stage, you are recognising their ability and giving them every chance of getting through. The good players avoid each other in the group stages. This is good.

But once the group stages are over and we get into knockout stages, it should be a straight up random draw. The top seeds have no divine right to avoid each other. At Evo last year, Wong and Daigo met each other fairly early on with Daigo heading to losers bracket. Random is the only fair way to do it man.

I didn't realise that it was done like this Azza. I know i've been seeded before so this benefited me, but had I known I would brought this up earlier.

bush

Im not sure i like the idea of double seeding either. The tournaments end up being too samey. You run into the same people at same stages every time.

Another thing though. Last time we had 31 players and we still did a group stage. I think we should have just did a 32 man bracket and give one dude a bye, the top seed i suppose. Im not sure how ths seeding works in a 32 bracket though.

Kirby

Agree with you on the seedings, but you have to do a group stage. Some of us are local enough. I'm less than an hour away. But some people come from a long way and pay their entry fee. They deserve some game time.

Besides, more games is good and I'm usually done with my group games in ten minutes. Not a long time.

blag

I had a discussion with the other lads in Belfast yesterday to see what everyones preferred date is and April 3rd seems to be the date that suits everyone best.

Jim

My (quick!) thoughts.

Entry fee should be €10 or €12, I think €15 is a bit too much and will intimidate new players. The reasoning that its €15 to keep the prize money high to attract the better players is a bit off, as the impression I get (from the Belfast group anyway) is that the money is just really an extra bonus, but isn't needed to coax them down. (that's just my assumption, can't speak for any of the players coming from other parts of the country).

Seedings should only happen in group stages, and random after that for reasons stated above.

Keep it double elim for reasons stated above.

Name change is probably a good idea, but keep the name Inferno somewhere there.

Azza

I don't think you guys fully understand how the seeding works.

As it stands the winner of a group plays the runner up of another group which is the logical way to go about it if you ask me. If you win your group you should avoid playing the winner of another group in the first round of the second part of the tournament as a reward for winning your group. I believe thats how they do it in all tournaments in various sports that have a group stage like this. I think everyone should be able to agree on this point.

The way I work is that there is 8 groups.
Group A to H.

Group A having seed 1 while group H has the last of the top 8 seeded players.
So the groups get weaker as they go along (on paper anyway).

If all the top seeded player win there groups they avoid each other in the first round.

However if a top seeded player in his group doesn't win his group and becomes runner up he can face a seeded player in the first round of double elimination.

Currently
Group A winner faces runner up of Group H
Group B winner faces runner up of Group G
Group C winner faces runner up of Group F
Group D winner faces runner up of Group E
Group E winner faces runner up of Group D
Group F winner faces runner up of Group C
Group G winner faces runner up of Group B
Group H winner faces runner up of Group A

Under the assumption that all the top seeds win. The winners play the runners up of the other groups in the first round of stage 2. Again assuming the top seeded players win at every stage of the way, the first opportunity for seeded players to meet is in the quarter finals. They only avoid each other in the first round of the upper brackets. After that the seeds meet like follows (assuming the higher seed players wins).

Quater Finals.
1st vs 8th
4th vs 5th
3rd vs 6th
2nd vs 7th

Semi Final
1st vs 4th
2nd vs 3rd

Winners Final
1st Vs 2nd

But this does not of course garuntee they will meet in the finals. They could meet in lower brackets if they are knocked out in an earlier stage. Under the current system from the quater finals on people who meet in the group stage can meet again as early as the quarter finals.

Option 2.
If we switch to random group drawings, then you could get all sorts of weird things. First you could have the winner and runner up of group A for example playing each other again right away in the first round of the upper bracket. You could have draws like mike vs cobelcog in the first round, and then bush and blag beside them and have the good players take each other out (3 of the top 4 players gone before the semi's) giving a potential easy run for other players who had the good fortune to be on the fire side of the bracket draw. Group winners could being thrown together straight away which means there is zero benefit from winning you group.

Option 3
Alturnatively we could do draw where a winner and runner up are randomly drawn together. This makes more sense than option 2. This effectively has the same result of keeping the seeds apart in the first round of the upper brackets. After that the seeds could meet in any order once the quarter finals is reach. However this still leaves the possibility of players who meet in the groups meeting each other again from the quater finals onwards (as they do in the current system).
While not as big a problem as optoin two it could potentially leave some players with a far an easier run to the finals by having 1 side of the bracket with a far eaiser draw than the other.

Option 4
All winners face each other drawn in random order and all runner ups face each other in random order. Again this is a bad idea. All this does is ensure that people that meet in the group stage can't meet again until the finals. This system though as you can see punishes winners of groups and rewards the runner up. Sets up a lob sided bracket with weaker players on 1 side and good players on the other. Obviously a non starter.

Really only option 2 is a viable alturnative. The only difference is that it will mean less similar match ups from previous tournaments (but not garuntee it) and introduced a random element of luck into the upper brackets from the quater final onwards.

Kirby wrote:

The top seeds have no divine right to avoid each other.

The top seeds don't have any devine right under any system to avoid each other till the finals, with seeding there still required to win their matches to take full benefit from the seeding.

Bush wrote:

Im not sure i like the idea of double seeding either. The tournaments end up being too samey. You run into the same people at same stages every time.

Another thing though. Last time we had 31 players and we still did a group stage. I think we should have just did a 32 man bracket and give one dude a bye, the top seed i suppose. Im not sure how ths seeding works in a 32 bracket though.

True there have beens similar match ups at the same stages in previous tournaments. Seeding attributes to this, but also the fact that there is few players who have improved there games enough to challenge the top players.

If we did a 32 man bracket double elimination, the single seeding in that would cause the exact same result as the current double seeding would. You would not reach any seeded players till the quaters at the earlist and it would be the same seed that you currently play if you did.

This is how its done in Tennis. If number 1 seed wins all his games as does the number 2 seed they won't play each other until the finals. This is what I have in mind with the current seeding system. The tournament starts off easy for the seeds and steadily gets harder.

Jim wrote:

My (quick!) thoughts.

Entry fee should be €10 or €12, I think €15 is a bit too much and will intimidate new players. The reasoning that its €15 to keep the prize money high to attract the better players is a bit off, as the impression I get (from the Belfast group anyway) is that the money is just really an extra bonus, but isn't needed to coax them down. (that's just my assumption, can't speak for any of the players coming from other parts of the country).

I can understand the viewpoint but my concern is if do lower it, will it permantly stay low because there will always be new players coming and current players who feel they have little chance of winning tournaments (there will be always be more who feel they can't win than can, unless there is a considerable change in peoples levelling up abaility)


Anyway what ever the majority wants I'll do on both points. I will do another thread shortly with a poll to vote in.

Doctor DooM

I knew that was the way azza did things even though without fail I come second in my group and end up against someone like bush straight away. I'm pretty sure it's standard?

Ry

I think option 1 is good to be fair. It's how most tournaments are run.

Group winners play runners up from other groups and so on. This is why if you don't win your group you will know you have to earn your spot beyond the next point by facing one of the group winners.

Kirby

"Winner of group A faces runner up of group B" is fine as far as I am concerned. It makes sense and rewards people for winning their group for the first knockout stage.

But the seedings should stop there, after the first knockout stage. The top seeds have had their benefit and shouldn't have any more help. It should be random out of a hat from after the round of 16.

Azza wrote: »

Under the assumption that all the top seeds win. The winners play the runners up of the other groups in the first round of stage 2. Again assuming the top seeded players win at every stage of the way, the first opportunity for seeded players to meet is in the quarter finals. They only avoid each other in the first round of the upper brackets. After that the seeds meet like follows (assuming the higher seed players wins).

Quater Finals.
1st vs 8th
4th vs 5th
3rd vs 6th
2nd vs 7th

The seeds get their benefit by getting a weaker group. That is their reward for being a top seed. No consideration to seeding should be given to anyone beyond that point.

Drawing the quarter finals as a "1st vs 8th" seed situtation is instituting a double seeding situation and shouldn't happen. When it gets to that stage it should be random.

BanjoB

Hope this isnt the 3rd of April weekend.. Cant make it then

Azza

Kirby wrote:

"Winner of group A faces runner up of group B" is fine as far as I am concerned. It makes sense and rewards people for winning their group for the first knockout stage.

Kirby wrote:

Drawing the quarter finals as a "1st vs 8th" seed situtation is instituting a double seeding situation and shouldn't happen. When it gets to that stage it should be random.

You kinda contradict yourself with those two paragraphs. What you suggest first isn't random. There is a logical pattern behind it.

A random system would see the winner of Group A face a randomly selected runner up. You would also choose randomly from a hat the order of the first round in the upper brackets. So you don't have all the group winners lined up to play each other in the quarter finals.

This is the only viable alturnative if people want it. However I believe its merely placing more emphasis on luck over skill. Granted a random draw does not garuntee that the the brackets will have weaker sides, it might turn out quite balanced due to pure chance. However if you consistently run a tournament like this your going get some lob sided upper brackets eventually. I for one would find winning a tournament due to my having an easy pass to the finals while all the other top seeds elminated each other a rather hallow victory.

Azza

Just reading on Wikipeda. In tennis they actually only ensure only the top 2 seeds are kept in different brackets while the rest is randomly drawn to avoid repeat match ups in successive tournaments even at the expense of unbalanced brackets.

The NFL and NHL use a re-seeding system while the NBA doesn't. Just as an example. There isn't a defacto standard, so I'll leave it up to what the majority of people here want.

Doctor DooM

Ok, net working now.

The second seeding Azza is using basically only ensures that you don't run into the same people from your group. Thats all.

Saying one format and "just get an xbox stick" is ignoring the fact the game is a little different on different formats. I have considerable difficulty adapting precharging from PS3 to 360 for example. Also, the Ps3 screens don't lag as much as the XBOX. If you think they do, I suggest you play a bit more on the PS3 version and see if you still feel that way.

For other reasons Azza's already mentioned, it's not really feasible to use 360 only in XGC. Unlocks for example, and the physical size of the place. If you really wanted one format only, we'd need a new place.

That new place would have to be in Dub city.

I also totally oppose single elim.

I tend to get knocked down to losers straight away. Then I tend to come fifth/sixth fighting my way up.

If the tournaments were single elim, I wouldn't have the breathing room of that loss. I'd have to change character to Ryu to deal with those bad matches which inevitably I run into at some point. I honestly believe single elim will lead to good players not getting to shine and/or people being forced to make character choices which will effect the diversity of our scene.

Also, it simply means you get more game for your money if you get through the group stages.

Dunboyne would make the Northern lads 2.5 hour trip into a 3.5 hour trip.

I live about 20 minutes away from it but for actual competitions it's not good.

Liquidswords

Tennis is for sexuals of the homo kind. Kirby means Champions League style tournament where there's seeding in groups, the number 1's fight the number2's in the first round of knockouts then you have to man up and take on whoever you're placed against via a draw.

This is a vastly superior format IMO, if you're getting to the quarter finals you shouldn't care who you draw, you came here to crack heads right? Or did you come to fight the same guy as last time and beat him again in a 7-3 matchup just to inflate your ego?

Doctor DooM

Liquidswords wrote: »

Tennis is for sexuals of the homo kind. Kirby means Champions League style tournament where there's seeding in groups, the number 1's fight the number2's in the first round of knockouts then you have to man up and take on whoever you're placed against via a draw.

This is a vastly superior format IMO, if you're getting to the quarter finals you shouldn't care who you draw, you came here to crack heads right? Or did you come to fight the same guy as last time and beat him again in a 7-3 matchup just to inflate your ego?

Thats the way it's done already... I think people are missing that.

Liquidswords

I thought it was bracketed so if he beats him and he beats him they fight as oppossed to we finish this round and draw those remaining from a hat.

Placebo

**** all of you.

Doctor DooM

Liquidswords wrote: »

I thought it was bracketed so if he beats him and he beats him they fight as oppossed to we finish this round and draw those remaining from a hat.

You're confusing me in this post but effectively the winner from one group fights the runner up from another and so on for all groups. Thats all, if I understand correctly.

Placebo wrote: »

**** all of you.

Ah you love us really.

Liquidswords

Doctor DooM wrote: »

You're confusing me in this post but effectively the winner from one group fights the runner up from another and so on for all groups. Thats all, if I understand correctly.

Yes that's all well and good but that's only the first round of knockouts. Whoever writes up the brackets can shape them so (if the top seeds win) the top seed, seed number 1 will fight seed number 8, 2 fights 7 and so on keeping 1 and 2 away from eachother until the final. This is the way things are currently, no?

In the Champions League however after the first round of knockouts where the winners fight the runners up nobody is protected from anybody else. From the quarter finals onward you are no longer afforded the luxury of a guaranteed weaker opponent. You are forced to prove you can beat anyone still in the competition because you can be drawn against any one of them. Then in the semi finals the same, no pre-defined path, you can draw any of your 3 remaining opponents.

Doctor DooM

Liquidswords wrote: »

Yes that's all well and good but that's only the first round of knockouts. Whoever writes up the brackets can shape them so (if the top seeds win) the top seed, seed number 1 will fight seed number 8, 2 fights 7 and so on keeping 1 and 2 away from eachother until the final. This is the way things are currently, no?

In the Champions League however after the first round of knockouts where the winners fight the runners up nobody is protected from anybody else. From the quarter finals onward you are no longer afforded the luxury of a guaranteed weaker opponent. You are forced to prove you can beat anyone still in the competition because you can be drawn against any one of them. Then in the semi finals the same, no pre-defined path, you can draw any of your 3 remaining opponents.

He could but he doesn't and I know he doesn't because he's asked me several times to randomly draw which groups which seeds are going in! Seed one has just as much chance of running into seed 2 after the first knockout round as anyone else who's gotten through, I think.