Vatican forced to defend itself over abuse cases

Erren Music

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8559514.stm

As accusations of historic sexual abuse by Roman Catholics emerge in another European country, the Vatican has insisted it has dealt with "the very serious issue" promptly and decisively.

What have the church done other than to parade their stupidity in the face of everyone who was abused. Nothing has changed.


Why hasn't the government done something about this ridiculous situation.

dan_d

I thourhgt we were trying to seperate church and state here, as that would appear to have been a huge part of the problem in the past.
Government involvement would achieve very little other than adding to the mass of people involved.

anymore

Erren Music wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8559514.stm

As accusations of historic sexual abuse by Roman Catholics emerge in another European country, the Vatican has insisted it has dealt with "the very serious issue" promptly and decisively.

What have the church done other than to parade their stupidity in the face of everyone who was abused. Nothing has changed.


Why hasn't the government done something about this ridiculous situation.

irish governments prefer not to impose on the rights of religous to rule their flocks and impose thier religious ethos, whatever the hell that is, on the masses. .

Erren Music

anymore wrote: »

irish governments prefer not to impose on the rights of religous to rule their flocks and impose thier religious ethos, whatever the hell that is, on the masses. .

What about the law of the land to prosecute an organistaion with 30,000+ sexual complaints, and all those who covered it up, including their pope.

anymore

Erren Music wrote: »

What about the law of the land to prosecute an organistaion with 30,000+ sexual complaints, and all those who covered it up, including their pope.

The law of the land, where religion is concerned, is a movable feast like easter. And it is rather noticable that the leaders of other religous groups have little to say about this issue either !
The Irish Indo, page 30 today, has reported that the Pope's brother, Msgr Ratzinger has confessed to hitting, slaping them for disciplinary reasons, children at the choir school where he was choir master. He has of course said that he knew nothing about sexual abuse at the school.

Overheal

Erren Music wrote: »

Why hasn't the government done something about this ridiculous situation.

What do you propose they do?

Nehaxak

What do you propose they do?

1. Freeze all assets, bank accounts, land and all associated wealth from the Catholic church in Ireland, sell it all off and distribute the outcome to those that were abused, as compensation. Holding back a percentage of same to cater for projects, schools etc., to be run on an independant or state basis, free from church interference.

2. Put together a crack squad of Gardaí (preferably all Athiests/Agnostics) to investigate and bring respective criminal prosecutions against the church and it's priests/nuns/whatever, including and going so far if required as to bring criminal charges against the vatican itself.

3. Ban the Catholic church from ever operating in Ireland again.

wes

Nehaxak wrote: »

2. Put together a crack squad of Gardaí (preferably all Athiests/Agnostics) to investigate and bring respective criminal prosecutions against the church and it's priests/nuns/whatever, including and going so far if required as to bring criminal charges against the vatican itself.

I am no fan of the Catholic church, but giving preference to a particular ideological group to enforce the law is ridiculous, and discriminatory. The Relgion or lack there of should have no bearing on what Gardai is chosen to investigate a crime, but rather there professional ability.

bmaxi

anymore wrote: »

The law of the land, where religion is concerned, is a movable feast like easter. And it is rather noticable that the leaders of other religous groups have little to say about this issue either !
.

Other denominations and faiths have always felt the need to keep a low profile in Ireland, such was the enormous power wielded by the Catholic church. I think it would be unfair to suggest that their silence on this matter is anything more than a continuance of this stance.
Thankfully, the plain people of Ireland seem at last to be freeing themselves from the yoke.

Erren Music

Nehaxak wrote: »

1. Freeze all assets, bank accounts, land and all associated wealth from the Catholic church in Ireland, sell it all off and distribute the outcome to those that were abused, as compensation. Holding back a percentage of same to cater for projects, schools etc., to be run on an independant or state basis, free from church interference.

2. Put together a crack squad of Gardaí (preferably all Athiests/Agnostics) to investigate and bring respective criminal prosecutions against the church and it's priests/nuns/whatever, including and going so far if required as to bring criminal charges against the vatican itself.

3. Ban the Catholic church from ever operating in Ireland again.

I'm am with you on most of this.
But

wes wrote: »

I am no fan of the Catholic church, but giving preference to a particular ideological group to enforce the law is ridiculous, and discriminatory. The Relgion or lack there of should have no bearing on what Gardai is chosen to investigate a crime, but rather there professional ability.

I understand what you mean, but should a devoutly religious person be allowed hold a position of authority in a case concerning their religion? Maybe you could have an even mix across the spectrum with crosschecking.

Nehaxak

wes wrote: »

I am no fan of the Catholic church, but giving preference to a particular ideological group to enforce the law is ridiculous, and discriminatory. The Relgion or lack there of should have no bearing on what Gardai is chosen to investigate a crime, but rather there professional ability.

I take your point but given that in the past some serving Gardai were involved also in the cover up of abuse by the Catholic church, I would find it hard therefore to put trust in them any further to carry out the duty required to bring criminal proceedings against the church, hence why I'd say to only choose Gardai with absolutely no religion.

anymore

bmaxi wrote: »

Other denominations and faiths have always felt the need to keep a low profile in Ireland, such was the enormous power wielded by the Catholic church. I think it would be unfair to suggest that their silence on this matter is anything more than a continuance of this stance.
Thankfully, the plain people of Ireland seem at last to be freeing themselves from the yoke.

The era when non Catholic religions felt the need to keep a low profile is long long gone. I am afraid that I suspect it is more a case of 'birds of a feather flocking together' rather than deference. They all have a vested interst in adopting a common approch to Governments on a variety of issues so they will, usually prefer not to rock the boat by being too critical of other religions. Mind you Pope Benedict has been a little less relaible in this regard and has mode some undiplomatic comments on other religions.

Fratton Fred

What do you expect? The head of the Anglican and Presbyterian churches taking out a full page ad in the indo saying "We told you so"?

wes

Erren Music wrote: »

I understand what you mean, but should a devoutly religious person be allowed hold a position of authority in a case concerning their religion? Maybe you could have an even mix across the spectrum with crosschecking.

Well, having a variety of people both who are Religous and Non-Religous, would make more sense imho. So your suggestion would work a lot better imho.

Nehaxak wrote: »

I take your point but given that in the past some serving Gardai were involved also in the cover up of abuse by the Catholic church, I would find it hard therefore to put trust in them any further to carry out the duty required to bring criminal proceedings against the church, hence why I'd say to only choose Gardai with absolutely no religion.

The past behaviour of some Gardai, should disqualify those who were involved, and not other who share the same Religion or ideological beliefs. Again, to give preference for enforcing the law to any specific Religous or ideological group is wrong.

If only Atheists or Agnostics, were preferncially chosen to investigate, then a defendant could claim they were being victimised for there beliefs.

Any investigation into these abuse cases should not be open to such accusations, and there are other ways to achieve oversite, that won't cause problems for a potential prosecution.

IMHO, your suggestion is firstly inherently wrong, but would also create a scandal about the investigation, and cause problem for any presecution, which are unneccessary.

Nehaxak

Well if I'm being honest, I'm only posting here on this thread in a manner that's beyond the reach of my own ability to contain myself if I were in power to deal with this scandal. I wouldn't leave a single one of them alive if I had my way.

anymore

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What do you expect? The head of the Anglican and Presbyterian churches taking out a full page ad in the indo saying "We told you so"?

No. Any statement made by these churches would be covered extemsively in the media. All they need do is speak out. You know show a little christian concer for thier fellow christians. They seem to have no problems issuing statements on issues that affect them financially and on tax subsidies for thier schools.

fontanalis

Some funny going ons in Ratz old parish.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100312/ap_on_re_eu/eu_church_abuse

jennyjest

Wonder if people still believe in Papal Infallibility now ?

Kiwi_knock

Nehaxak wrote: »

2. Put together a crack squad of Gardaí (preferably all Athiests/Agnostics) to investigate and bring respective criminal prosecutions against the church and it's priests/nuns/whatever, including and going so far if required as to bring criminal charges against the vatican itself.

Do you propose that the Judges who hear these cases would have to be non believers also. Its all together to complicated to put into action. A squad of non believers will seem to have a ulterior motive as much as a squad of Catholics.

Overheal

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

Do you propose that the Judges who hear these cases would have to be non believers also. Its all together to complicated to put into action. A squad of non believers will seem to have a ulterior motive as much as a squad of Catholics.

As a Master of Godwin do I even need to point out all of the Nazi connotations of such an Atheist Police Force? An all White Army? The Sisterhood of Traveling Pants?

All Atheist Police/Inquisition Force

Next?

I do quite like the brainstorm about freezing the Church's assets though.

Outrage

Thank God for bloggers like Damian Thompson who bring a breath of fresh air into the kind of ignorant commentary you hear on these discussion fora, which 9 times out of 10, are populated by people who haven't a clue about Catholicism, are probably on the dole, and have access to too much time and/or too much internet for their own good.

IrishTonyO

Outrage wrote: »

Thank God for bloggers like Damian Thompson who bring a breath of fresh air into the kind of ignorant commentary you hear on these discussion fora, which 9 times out of 10, are populated by people who haven't a clue about Catholicism, are probably on the dole, and have access to too much time and/or too much internet for their own good.

A very Christian attitude... " and they'll know we are Christians by our love....."

jank

Nehaxak wrote: »

1. Freeze all assets, bank accounts, land and all associated wealth from the Catholic church in Ireland, sell it all off and distribute the outcome to those that were abused, as compensation. Holding back a percentage of same to cater for projects, schools etc., to be run on an independant or state basis, free from church interference.

2. Put together a crack squad of Gardaí (preferably all Athiests/Agnostics) to investigate and bring respective criminal prosecutions against the church and it's priests/nuns/whatever, including and going so far if required as to bring criminal charges against the vatican itself.

3. Ban the Catholic church from ever operating in Ireland again.

Unfortunately or fortunately all those things are illegal in Ireland. I think the church should be dismantled but the state cant force it to happen.

Outrage

IrishTonyO wrote: »

A very Christian attitude... " and they'll know we are Christians by our love....."

Telling those with too much time on their hands to get up off their arses and help themselves, instead of cribbing and moaning from the sidelines about things that have no relevance to their calling in life is the Christian thing to do.

Outrage

jank wrote: »

Unfortunately or fortunately all those things are illegal in Ireland. I think the church should be dismantled but the state cant force it to happen.

I guess compartmentalising people like you on anonymous internet fora has its benefits: you spend so much of your productive time and energy spouting half thought-out rubbish, that you'll never influence people or get into power. And thanks be to God.

IrishTonyO

Outrage wrote: »

Telling those with too much time on their hands to get up off their arses and help themselves, instead of cribbing and moaning from the sidelines about things that have no relevance to their calling in life is the Christian thing to do.

cribbing and moaning like you by any chance? look to yourself before you condemn others

Blackhorse Slim

jennyjest wrote: »

Wonder if people still believe in Papal Infallibility now ?

Did anyone ever believe in it?

jank

Outrage wrote: »

I guess compartmentalising people like you on anonymous internet fora has its benefits: you spend so much of your productive time and energy spouting half thought-out rubbish, that you'll never influence people or get into power. And thanks be to God.

I am sorry but you dont know me at all so how do you know how much time and energy I spend doing whatnot.

If you actually read the post I was taking a more moderate step to the one outline in the post I quoted which was basicly saying to outlaw the catholic religion.

But I guess you like being the victim in all this as if this is a conspiracy against the chruch by certain groups.

About getting into power??? What the hell are you on about. With whom I want to get into power with? Satan?

Lay off the alter wine.

Kiwi_knock

jank wrote: »

About getting into power??? What the hell are you on about. With whom I want to get into power with? Satan?

To be fair to the poster he was saying you would never get in to power

jank

That makes as much sense as saying I will never fly to the moon.
If thats the length of his/your deductive powers then so be it

Kiwi_knock

I was not having a go at you, I was just making you aware that if a post really annoys you do not respond to it immediately without reading it fully. Make sure when you respond to it that you do not seem silly by not fully understanding it.

jank

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

I was not having a go at you, I was just making you aware that if a post really annoys you do not respond to it immediately without reading it fully. Make sure when you respond to it that you do not seem silly by not fully understanding it.

I am sorry but I didnt mention anything about getting into power in my original post so maybe you should redirect this post for Outrage.
Oh and nice subtext to your post aswell.:rolleyes:

Kiwi_knock

I actually do not mean to get into an argument with you, its all Outrage's fault. His post was so incorrect but I felt a need to leap to a defence of a fellow Christian without actually reading your original post. His was an unjust attack on you, while I in no way agree with your view of dismantling the Church I appreciate that you did not go to such extremist lengths as some other posters. I apologise for my mistakes.

Outrage

Listening to the words of a wise man will make your lives a lot easier.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/author/damianthompson/

jank

I dont buy that at all I am afraid. It wont make the lives of those abused easier as people try and deflect attention away form the issue itself.

CiaranC

Outrage wrote: »

Listening to the words of a wise man will make your lives a lot easier.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/author/damianthompson/

Both you and him are akin to Holocaust deniers, you should be locked up.