Catholic school: if your parents are gay, don't bother attending here

LookingFor

So the Catholic Church's discrimination against gay people continues apace. Not content with withdrawing spousal benefit from all among its charity employees in Boston, for fear of passing benefits to a gay spouse (oh, the horror!), they're now after your kids' education.

Or at least, this school in Denver is:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/08/colorado.lesbians.church/index.html?hpt=T2

Gay and lesbian groups are attacking a decision by the archdiocese of Denver, Colorado, not to re-enroll a child in a Catholic school in Boulder, Colorado, next year because the child's parents are lesbians.

Quoth the school:

"Parents living in open discord with Catholic teaching in areas of faith and morals unfortunately choose by their actions to disqualify their children from enrollment," it said in a statement posted on its Web site. "To allow children in these circumstances to continue in our school would be a cause of confusion for the student in that what they are being taught in school conflicts with what they experience in the home.

Now, I'm sure the Catholic Church wouldn't single out the gays! So I presume, next, they will expel:

1) kids of parents who are unmarried

2) kids of parents found to have been using contraception (do spill, local pharmacists!)

3) kids of parents who don't preach non-acceptance of homosexuality and gay couples

4) kids who were born out of wedlock

5) kids of parents who don't attend mass every Sunday (easy for the Diocese to check, I'm sure)...

6) Kids of parents of different faith

...the potential list goes on and on. I guess pretty soon they'll have an empty school.

Boston

It's fair enough. Thats the catholic faith and homosexuality is at odds with it. It's more then a little hypocritical for homosexual parents to be trying to send their children to catholic schools. It's not the same as here where the vast majority of public schools are Christian, in the states it's largely limited to private schools.

LookingFor

Boston wrote: »

It's fair enough. Thats the catholic faith and homosexuality is at odds with it. It's more then a little hypocritical for homosexual parents to be trying to send their children to catholic schools. It's not the same as here where the vast majority of public schools are Christian, in the states it's largely limited to private schools.

I presume in Denver it's their right as a private institution to refuse admission on any grounds. In other jurisdictions they might have problems, but I guess Denver does not have equality laws covering sexual orientation with regard to things like education provision by any group. More's the pity I suppose.

Leaving that aside for a second though, there's plenty of reasons a non-Catholic or a gay person would want to send their kids to a Catholic school in the states - they're typically private, thus better resourced, and are often considered to be 'better' schools as a result, than the US public schools.

But leaving that aside also, I'm just wondering when they're going to get around to kicking out the kids of other parents whose home arrangements are in discord with Catholic dogma. Afterall, they wouldn't pick exclusively on gay people in this regard, would they? :rolleyes:

seamus

If you're actively homosexual (i.e. not repressing it), then you can't be Catholic. So why would you send your child to a Catholic school?

LookingFor

seamus wrote: »

If you're actively homosexual (i.e. not repressing it), then you can't be Catholic. So why would you send your child to a Catholic school?

See my above post. The same reasons lots of non-Catholics - of a variety of flavours - send their kids to Catholic schools in the states (or similarly in England).

Also, a side note, but I think your proclamation about 'being' Catholic is flawed. Being a good Catholic might be a different matter, but you don't stop simply being a Catholic by virtue of anything you do.

number10a

seamus wrote: »

If you're actively homosexual (i.e. not repressing it), then you can't be Catholic. So why would you send your child to a Catholic school?

By that logic, you're not a Catholic if you:

* don't go to Mass every Sunday
* curse
* commit adultery
* work on a Sunday
* eat meat on Good Friday.............

That's an endless list. Basically what you are saying is that because you are committing one particular "sin" rather than any of the others you cannot be a Catholic.

Btw, I'm not defending Catholicism here. Just pointing out this stupid piece of logic.

seamus

number10a wrote: »

By that logic, you're not a Catholic if you:

* don't go to Mass every Sunday
* curse
* commit adultery
* work on a Sunday
* eat meat on Good Friday.............

That's an endless list. Basically what you are saying is that because you are committing one particular "sin" you cannot be a Catholic.

Btw, I'm not defending Catholicism here. Just pointing out this stupid piece of logic.

If you routinely don't conform with Catholic dogma and you make no apologies for that then, correct, you are not a Catholic. Catholicism allows you some room to commit sin and repent but if you're completely unrepentent, as I would assume all open homosexual are, then you fundamentally disagree with the Catholic dogma and are therefore not Catholic. You can be Christian, sure, but being Catholic requires more than having been baptised into the faith and believing in Jesus.

Boston

LookingFor wrote: »

I presume in Denver it's their right as a private institution to refuse admission on any grounds. In other jurisdictions they might have problems, but I guess Denver does not have equality laws covering sexual orientation with regard to things like education provision by any group. More's the pity I suppose.

I'm not 100% sure about this but from memory schools here can discriminate on religious grounds.

LookingFor wrote: »

Leaving that aside for a second though, there's plenty of reasons a non-Catholic or a gay person would want to send their kids to a Catholic school in the states - they're typically private, thus better resourced, and are often considered to be 'better' schools as a result, than the US public schools.

I understand exactly why they might want to, but it's a catholic school first and foremost. It's purpose is as much to indoctrinate children into the church as anything else, so having kids in these schools where their parents actively go against the teachings of the church, undermines the entire purpose and makes a mockery of it. I'm all for gay rights but not at the expense of religious freedoms.

LookingFor wrote: »

But leaving that aside also, I'm just wondering when they're going to get around to kicking out the kids of other parents whose home arrangements are in discord with Catholic dogma. Afterall, they wouldn't pick exclusively on gay people in this regard, would they? :rolleyes:

I'd imagine there's actually few if any children enrolled from families where the parents are divorced. Parents can be of different faiths in the catholic church once the child is raised catholic. This school seems very strict in their application of rules, so it's likely that it's right across the board.

LookingFor

Boston wrote: »

I'm not 100% sure about this but from memory schools here can discriminate on religious grounds.

That shouldn't be the case if it is.

Boston wrote: »

I understand exactly why they might want to, but it's a catholic school first and foremost. It's purpose is as much to indoctrinate children into the church as anything else, so having kids in these schools where their parents actively go against the teachings of the church, undermines the entire purpose and makes a mockery of it. I'm all for gay rights but not at the expense of religious freedoms.

Well, first of all, I don't think religious freedom grinds to a halt when this kid walks into the room. That's sort of a silly notion.

Second, I think the degree to which there would be 'discord' between the school's teachings and the parents would be very limited. Assuming you went to a Catholic school, how often did you have lessons about homosexuality? How often even about religion? Religion is just a very small part of the typical Catholic education.

So I think it's a big over-reaction. And if you react like this on such narrow concerns, like I say, I think you'll end up with a half-empty school.

Boston wrote: »

I'd imagine there's actually few if any children enrolled from families where the parents are divorced.

Well, there's a long list of parental circumstances, as I outlined partially above that would be 'in discord with Catholic teaching on faith and morals'. I somehow don't think gay parents ranks high on the list of frequency of such circumstances. I imagine divorced or unmarried parents are far more common, yet curiously, it seems, have gone unaddressed. I'm sure Catholic institutions wouldn't want to be seen as hypocritical or only applying principles where they think they'll gain popular acceptance.

Such a stance on all these issues would probably be seen as overbearingly strict, and out-of-touch. I think same should go for this case.

Boston wrote: »

Parents can be of different faiths in the catholic church once the child is raised catholic. This school seems very strict in their application of rules, so it's likely that it's right across the board.

I wonder if it is. Maybe some further reporting shed some light. Regarding non-Catholic kids in Catholic schools, though, I know that here for sure it's accomodated. There were a number of non-Catholics in my year, and they were even excused from religion classes at the parent's request. It was no big deal though, because like I say, religion was really only a tiny component of day-to-day 'life' at that Catholic school.

Boston

LookingFor wrote: »

because like I say, religion was really only a tiny component of day-to-day 'life' at that Catholic school.

You don't know that, you've no idea. You're comparing a private American catholic school to a public Irish one. Homosexuality may not rank very highly for you on the list of "sins" but for the church it's another question. Theres a fundamental lack of understand here about how the catholic church works. You have to convince them that you're a believer and that you intend to raise you child to be one as well. Don't compare homosexuality to working on the Sabbath. It's not unreasonable to believe that living a homosexual life is at odds with being the type of catholic these schools are looking for. Sometimes things are incompatible and mutually exclusive.

LookingFor

Boston wrote: »

You don't know that, you've no idea. You're comparing a private American catholic school to a public Irish one. Homosexuality may not rank very highly for you on the list of "sins" but for the church it's another question. Theres a fundamental lack of understand here about how the catholic church works. You have to convince them that you're a believer and that you intend to raise you child to be one as well. Don't compare homosexuality to working on the Sabbath. It's not unreasonable to believe that living a homosexual life is at odds with being the type of catholic these schools are looking for. Sometimes things are incompatible and mutually exclusive.

Personally I don't think it is, because if the Church seeks to evangelise, it's going to often be doing so in the context of mixed messages. I don't think a 'gay household' would be any more challenging in that respect.

But leaving that aside for a moment, keeping holy the sabbath day might be low level 'thing' next to sexuality and what-not, I don't know, but things like adultery? Divorce?

In all cases though, they are 'in discord with Catholic teaching on faith and morals' to a greater or lesser degree. I think adultery and other teaching on sexual morals is right up there though - indeed it made it into the ten commandments.

You were saying that 'well they're probably not concerned about that because there probably aren't many kids there with divorced parents', but surely...surely...there's more than are there with gay parents!

It's fine you know. Assuming it's legal, they can selectively discriminate as they wish, as you say, it's a private institution. But at least be honest about what you're doing. Don't hold up and hide behind 'Catholic teaching on faith and morals' and a philosophy of accord between that and 'the home' because you're opening a whole other can of worms in doing so, where people will rightfully ask about the selective application of this philosophy to the parents. Forgive me if I perceive it to be calculating and rather maliciously targetted at one specific type of sinner here.

Boston

LookingFor wrote: »

but surely...surely...there's more than are there with gay parents!

Not really. Divorce is a big sin and I can't see them accepting children from a divorced couple. Plenty of catholic schools here would make an issue out of that one as well.

LookingFor wrote: »

It's fine you know. Assuming it's legal, they can selectively discriminate as they wish, as you say, it's a private institution. But at least be honest about what you're doing. Don't hold up and hide behind 'Catholic teaching on faith and morals' and a philosophy of accord between that and 'the home' because you're opening a whole other can of worms in doing so, where people will rightfully ask about the selective application of this philosophy to the parents. Forgive me if I perceive it to be calculating and rather maliciously targetted at one specific type of sinner here.

You're assuming that they don't exclude other students on religious grounds.

LookingFor

Boston wrote: »

Not really. Divorce is a big sin and I can't see them accepting children from a divorced couple. Plenty of catholic schools here would make an issue out of that one as well.

I'd be surprised if they do. Maybe they do, and I'd happily welcome some reporting from this same school on problems divorced parents and parents in other less than 'accordful' circumstances have getting their children into these school.

However re. Catholic schools here, I know for sure they enrol and keep students with divorced parents and even - gasp - students who are not Catholic. My mother was a teacher at a Catholic school - what teacher isn't in Ireland - and her school was full of such situations.

Boston wrote: »

You're assuming that they don't exclude other students on religious grounds.

I'm assuming they don't exclude other students on a variety of other parental circumstances that are 'in discord with catholic teaching on faith and morals'. I'd be glad if I'm wrong though, but I somehow doubt it.

PS: re. keeping the sabbath, I read here that neglecting Sunday obligations is according to the church a grave sin along with a litany of others. I think therefore that parents who do not attend mass on Sunday are 'in discord with Catholic teaching' on faith, if not also morals

Annasopra

Boston wrote: »

Not really. Divorce is a big sin and I can't see them accepting children from a divorced couple. Plenty of catholic schools here would make an issue out of that one as well.

Do they? In what way?

Boston

LookingFor wrote: »

However re. Catholic schools here, I know for sure they enrol and keep students with divorced parents and even - gasp - students who are not Catholic. My mother was a teacher at a Catholic school - what teacher isn't in Ireland - and her school was full of such situations.

Ah, but there are schools which would.

LookingFor wrote: »

I'm assuming they don't exclude other students on a variety of other parental circumstances that are 'in discord with catholic teaching on faith and morals'. I'd be glad if I'm wrong though, but I somehow doubt it.

It's an assumption, a big one.

LookingFor wrote: »

PS: re. keeping the sabbath, I read here that neglecting Sunday obligations is according to the church a grave sin along with a litany of others. I think therefore that parents who do not attend mass on Sunday are 'in discord with Catholic teaching' on faith, if not also morals

Well look at it this way. The child's parents obviously weren't attending mass (I say obviously since it took time for them to be outed as lesbians) and the school was willing to overlook it.

Johnnymcg wrote:

Do they? In what way?

In the way of taking it out on the children, teaching them that their parents are sinner and going to hell. The parents in these schools refusing to allow their children associate with the children of divorced couple. If parents outside the catchment area for a school wishes their child to attend, they can be turned down for any trivial reason. Believe it or not, there are still plenty of Catholics in Ireland.

Riskymove

seamus wrote: »

If you're actively homosexual (i.e. not repressing it), then you can't be Catholic. So why would you send your child to a Catholic school?

er..perhaps the child is being raised a catholic?

why should the child suffer because of their parents?

Boston

Do you not think it's kinda fuked up to raise your child to believe the love between it's parents, the love from which it is a direct product, is an abomination, a sin against god? Come off it. I'm willing to believe that a child of an LGB couple can be raise Christian, but not catholic, the contempt for LGB people is so tightly engrained into that religion that there's no escaping it.

Riskymove

Boston wrote: »

I'm willing to believe that a child of an LGB couple can be raise Christian, but not catholic, the contempt for LGB people is so tightly engrained into that religion that there's no escaping it.

well they are sending the child to a catholic school are they not?...so therefore I think they obviously dont feel the same towards catholicism as others might.

perhaps they are from a generally catholic family and want the child to make up its own mind in due course....who knows

in any event catholicism contains many ideas which are blatantly ignored by members of its congregation, who still consider themselves catholics. current day ireland certainly certainly shows that.

Do you not think it's kinda fuked up to raise your child to believe the love between it's parents, the love from which it is a direct product, is an abomination, a sin against god?

while this may be a part of the religon, its not something that was ever explicitly taught to me, despite being raised a catholic

Boston

Riskymove wrote: »

well they are sending the child to a catholic school are they not?...so therefore I think they obviously dont feel the same towards catholicism as others might.

perhaps they are from a generally catholic family and want the child to make up its own mind in due course....who knows

in any event catholicism contains many ideas which are blatantly ignored by members of its congregation, who still consider themselves catholics. current day ireland certainly certainly shows that.

As pointed out earlier there are many reasons why they might want to send their child to a private catholic school.

Riskymove wrote: »

while this may be a part of the religon, its not something that was ever explicitly taught to me, despite being raised a catholic

Are you really suggesting it wont be an issue in their household simply because it wasn't in yours?

Riskymove

Boston wrote: »

Are you really suggesting it wont be an issue in their household simply because it wasn't in yours?

of course not, none of us have any idea what might happen with this family or what the child might be taught in school..tbh..if the school was that extreme in their teaching I really doubt they would be sending the child there

like you mentioned earlier there is a contradiction in what they are doing but it doesn't necessarily mean it has to lead to trouble. They have just as significant a role in raising and educating their child as the school does

stephen_n

LookingFor wrote: »

So the Catholic Church's discrimination against gay people continues apace. Not content with withdrawing spousal benefit from all among its charity employees in Boston, for fear of passing benefits to a gay spouse (oh, the horror!), they're now after your kids' education.

I would imagine that was purely financial rather than anything to do with their stance on homosexuality though! As Boston said they believe it's wrong and that's their right, why any Gay person would want to have anything to do with the catholic church is beyond me though!

Annasopra

Boston wrote: »

In the way of taking it out on the children, teaching them that their parents are sinner and going to hell. The parents in these schools refusing to allow their children associate with the children of divorced couple. If parents outside the catchment area for a school wishes their child to attend, they can be turned down for any trivial reason. Believe it or not, there are still plenty of Catholics in Ireland.

Are these really very common occurences? I mean seriously are you telling me that there are schools in Ireland teaching kids that divorcees will go to hell?

Boston

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Are these really very common occurences? I mean seriously are you telling me that there are schools in Ireland teaching kids that divorcees will go to hell?

Never said it was common, said it happens. I know of one incident personally were both the school and community made an issue of it, things like trying to stop the little girl getting holly communion. I'm sure there are plenty of catholic schools in the states which would accept a child from gay parents.

Different but similar thing happened to another chap I met off this site. He came out as gay around 15/16 and went to a (I think private) catholic school in south Dublin. The principle (Who was a brother) heard this and called him to his office to tell him that he could basically either keep it to himself or leave the school. Catholicism, never known for it's liberal views.

shoegirl

LookingFor wrote: »

...the potential list goes on and on. I guess pretty soon they'll have an empty school.

They rarely do this unless there is an open conflict going on. A lot of parents of kids in catholic schools don't live a "catholic" lifestyle and the schools know this full well. Generally they don't bother booting the kids unless there is some kind of open conflict ongoing though. Its not worth their while.

spurious

Section 37 however makes sure that if the school wanted to make an issue of it, or anything else about parents/students they didn't like, they can invoke the nonsensical 'ethos' equality loophole and do whatever they want.

Just because it has never happened doesn't mean it couldn't. The sooner Section 37 is done away with the better.

Annasopra

spurious wrote: »

Section 37 however makes sure that if the school wanted to make an issue of it, or anything else about parents/students they didn't like, they can invoke the nonsensical 'ethos' equality loophole and do whatever they want.

Just because it has never happened doesn't mean it couldn't. The sooner Section 37 is done away with the better.

This is absolute nonsense - Section 37 refers to employment ONLY

Annasopra

Q20. What discrimination is prohibited in relation to Educational Establishments?

An educational establishment shall not discriminate in relation to:
the admission or the terms or conditions of admission
the access of any student to any course, facility or benefit
any other term or condition of participation
the expulsion of a student or other sanction.

Q21. What Exemptions apply in relation to Educational Establishments?

The Acts allow different treatment in certain circumstances:
1. Exemptions on the ground of gender

The Acts allow people to be treated differently on the gender ground in:
Single Sex Schools - Where primary and secondary schools may be for one gender only.

2. Exemption on the grounds of religion and gender

The Acts allow people to be treated differently on the gender and religion grounds in relation to:

Religious Training - Where institutions established for providing training to ministers of a particular religion, may admit students of only one gender or religious belief.

3. Other exemptions

Ethos of the School - The Acts allow primary and post primary schools which have the objective of providing education in an environment which promotes certain religious values, to admit persons of a particular religious denomination in preference to others and to refuse to admit a student who is not of that denomination if it is proved that the refusal is essential to maintain the ethos of the school.

Mature students - The Acts allow universities or other third level or adult education institutions to provide different treatment in the allocation of places to mature students.

Scholarships - The Acts allow universities or other third level or adult education institutions to offer assistance to particular categories of persons by way of sponsorships, scholarships, bursaries or other awards but only if these are justified by historical or traditional considerations.

Student exchange - The Acts allow universities or other third level or adult education institutions to allocate places for exchange students.
Grants, fees, allocation of places - The Acts allow institutions providing adult, continuing or further education or universities or other third level institutions to treat nationals of an EU member state differently to those who are not, in relation to fees for admission or attendance and the allocation of places. The Acts allow the Minister for Education and Science to require grants to be restricted to nationals of an EU member state or to require such nationals to be treated differently in relation to making grants.

Sporting facilities and events - The Acts allow educational establishments to provide different treatment on the gender, age or disability grounds in relation to the provision or organisation of sporting events or facilities but only to the extent that the differences are necessary having regard to the nature of the facilities or events.

Disability - presumption of mainstreaming - The Acts allow educational establishments to treat students with disabilities differently (apart from making reasonable accommodation subject to nominal cost exemption) only if the disability is making the provisions of educational services impossible to other students or having a seriously detrimental effect on that provision.

Read the above - It's regarding the Equal Status Act, Section 37 is part of the Employment Equality Act which is totally separate

The_Minister

Just as a note, Bill O'Reilly (of Fox News) interviewed the principal of the school, and was basically asking him why he was punishing the children for the sins of the parents. Might be worth watching if you're interested.

Annasopra

The_Minister wrote: »

Just as a note, Bill O'Reilly (of Fox News) interviewed the principal of the school, and was basically asking him why he was punishing the children for the sins of the parents. Might be worth watching if you're interested.

Did Bill agree with the school?

The_Minister

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Did Bill agree with the school?

Oddly enough, no.
He seemed to think that the school was punishing the children for the parents behaviour.