Mistresses

Amazotheamazing

Just wondering what the good menfolk of this board think about mistresses? In some cultures it's common, and almost expected, that a (successful) man will have a mistress as well as a wife, despite Charlie Haughey's work in this area, this still seems to be a relatively unpopular (or untalked about) option for Irish men. Is this a throwback to Catholic Ireland (though mistresses are common in France and Italy, largely Catholic countries), are Irish men just not bothered? Do we think it's morally wrong or is Ireland just too small to have two partners?

Otis Driftwood

Riddle me this.

How would you feel if your wife/long term partner was getting shafted by someone else?

Putting a fancy name on it doesnt make cheating anymore defendable.

NothingMan

One woman provides more than enough trouble, thank you very much.

helimachoptor

NothingMan wrote: »

One woman provides more than enough trouble, thank you very much.

Exactly :pac:

Always what i say to my girlfriend, "i've enough hassle with you, never mind having another one on the go!"

Amazotheamazing

nedtheshed wrote: »

Riddle me this.

How would you feel if your wife/long term partner was getting shafted by someone else?

Putting a fancy name on it doesnt make cheating anymore defendable.

Where was I trying to defend it? I was pointing out it's absence from Irish culture compared to other countries and wondering why that would be so?

Nuttzz

catholic guilt...

28064212

Why is there an explanation required for something that hasn't occurred? Surely the question should be "why is there a mistress culture in France and Italy?"

pikachucheeks

Irish society and morality has always tended to be very traditional, placing high value on the family and family values.
Having public affairs isn't the norm because it doesn't comply with that - It's definitely still a taboo in this country.

Obviously, there are Irish people involved in affairs but not many of them would be prepared to stand up and admit it.
It's not something that's tolerated or seen as acceptable here.

Nevyn

I don't think it is that absent, I think it is well hidden and just not spoken about.

Amazotheamazing

28064212 wrote: »

Why is there an explanation required for something that hasn't occurred? Surely the question should be "why is there a mistress culture in France and Italy?"

True enough, but I only started thinking about when I was reading about cultures where polygamy is still carried out, Africa mostly. In part, I can see how the tradition of a mistress is a remnant of the era when a chieftain or whoever would show their strength, virility, wealth etc by having a large number of wives. Perhaps it's an incorrect way to approach the topic, but that was my reasoning behind it. Out of curiosity, does anyone know if the High Kings would have more than one wife?

Otis Driftwood

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Where was I trying to defend it? I was pointing out it's absence from Irish culture compared to other countries and wondering why that would be so?

I should have been clearer,I wasnt getting at you in particular,more your point that its culturally acceptable nay expected in some countries for a man to have a lover aswell as his wife.

My point was that irregardless of social stature,success or whatever,cheating on a partner is still cheating on a partner,no matter what its called (ie having a mistress).

Iago

nedtheshed wrote: »

My point was that irregardless of social stature,success or whatever,cheating on a partner is still cheating on a partner,no matter what its called (ie having a mistress).

In the greater scheme of things, this is a very new social concept.

Otis Driftwood

Oh Im aware of that.

Nevyn

There are people who are polyamourus or in open relationships, those are different form having an acknowledged mistress or a mistress at all.

princess-lala

Obviously if a man needs a mistress hes not getting what he needs at home! Its just a nicer term to cheating!

Alot of men/women cheat but irish people wouldnt be so open about cheating as other countries!!

Personally Id cut his balls off if I found out my partner/husband had a "mistress"

donfers

princess-lala wrote: »

Obviously if a man needs a mistress hes not getting what he needs at home! Its just a nicer term to cheating!

Alot of men/women cheat but irish people wouldnt be so open about cheating as other countries!!

Personally Id cut his balls off if I found out my partner/husband had a "mistress"

Come on now, think about what you are saying there.

I know you mean it in jest but it goes to the very heart of how we are conditioned to think that some kind of gender-directed behaviours are ok.

Think if I made a comment in jest in TLL saying "if my girlfriend cheated I'd cut her tits off"

Think of the reaction I'd get and think most importantly why one form of abuse is acceptable and humourous and the other is not.

These are the things we should be aware of and they absolutely work both ways.

Pherekydes

donfers wrote: »

These are the things we should be aware of and they absolutely work both ways.

How would you feel if your OH had a toyboy in the IFSC?

donfers

Pherekydes wrote: »

How would you feel if your OH had a toyboy in the IFSC?

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make but if you want to ask that question go ahead and start a new thread

force majeure

'Jesus' I well be happy to have one woman interested in me let alone to have 2.

Giselle

princess-lala wrote: »

Obviously if a man needs a mistress hes not getting what he needs at home! Its just a nicer term to cheating!

Theres nothing obvious about that.

I believe the reason most commonly quoted by those who cheat is that they do so because the opportunity arose and they thought the consequenses (if any) would be minimal.

Saying he isn't getting what he needs at home is putting the blame squarely on the cheated-on!

humberklog

princess-lala wrote: »

Obviously if a man needs a mistress hes not getting what he needs at home! Its just a nicer term to cheating!

This is a very personal female postition on a question put to men.

That point's not obvious (or correct in general terms) in the slightest.

Coriolanus

pikachucheeks wrote: »

Irish society and morality has always tended to be very traditional, placing high value on the family and family values.

Maybe not intended, but that does rather imply that say, the French, who have a long history of tolerance regarding Mistresses, places a lower value on the family and family values.
Anyway, the whole practise, especially on the continent in the 16th-17th c's is pretty interesting. For one thing, the stigma about a non-virgin bride was not attached to mistresses. It was common for young women to be a mistress to an older man and later marry another.
I'd think the reasons that it never became a part of our culture would be the relatively better job the clergy did of keeping the morality of the people in line with the Church and secondly, the abject poverty that a lot of Irish were kept in over the centuries. To have a mistress was a sign of wealth, after all, who could afford to "keep" two households other than a wealthy man. Even the gentry in Ireland were relatively less well off than those of the continent remember, so it's really no surprise.

Nevyn

In countries were women (respectable women) did not socailse with men there were courtesans. Unmarried daughters were closested away and wifes were also kept safe and were too busy tending the household and children to be in society.

Worldly women were the courtesans, and it wasn't just about sex it was being a public woman who was in many cases the 'work wife' of a man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtesan

As a result, in Renaissance usage, the Italian word "cortigiana", feminine of "cortigiano" (courtier) came to refer to "the ruler's mistress", and then to a well-educated and independent woman of free morals, eventually a trained artisan of dance and singing, especially one associated with wealthy, powerful, or upper-class men who provided luxuries and status in exchange for companionship.[3] The word was borrowed by English from Italian through the French form "courtisane" during the 16th century, especially associated to the meaning of "court-mistress" and "prostitute".

In countries like france and italy the modren misstress has more in common with the courtesan then just someone who a man gets his jollies away from the wife.

The Corinthian

Italy has a long tradition of mistresses. They were a status symbol as much as anything - you could afford to keep a second woman rather than visit a brothel, and possibly for this reason (and that the man was not catching God-knows-what from prostitutes) it was tolerated and in some cases encouraged.

It was far less acceptable for younger women to take lovers, largely due to inheritance issues that would arise from pregnancies, although it was not uncommon for older women to have lovers in the past, although this was largely class-based (then again so was having a mistress).

The gender demographics with regards to infidelity in Italy have changed dramatically in the last thirty years (unless women have simply become less discrete) and now Italian wives account for the majority of infidelities and affairs.

Traditionally the general rules of keeping a mistress/lover were something like this:

• You never leave your husband/wife and family for your mistress/lover. This was a big taboo.
• It is a private matter. Amongst your own gender/peers it may be quietly discussed, but it is never publicly acknowledged. If it is then the s**t hits the fan (see below).
• Very often the cuckolded spouse has a power of veto. They can often force an end to the relationship and/or otherwise place conditions.
• You may never show preference - financial or otherwise - towards the mistress/lover. Your wife/husband and family always come first. If you did, someone would almost certainly take you aside to tell you to cop on and/or end it.

Importantly it was/is a private matter. Italy is all about appearance - everyone wants to make a bella figura and no one wants to make a brutta figura (there are no really good translations in English for those expressions). As such being publicly cuckolded is about the worst thing that can happen to either a man or a woman, to the point that murdering a spouse for this was a separate category of homicide that was dealt with far more leniently (and was the basis of the film Divorzio all'italiana).

Can such a system work in Ireland? Probably not.

Other than the fact that as a practice it is becoming impractical in countries like Italy or France where there is a culture of it, Ireland has very little history of it by comparison.

Additionally, the Irish have this bizarre and unhealthy attitude to sex in general, which seems to be a mix of Victorian British and Roman Catholic mores, with some modern US Romcom nonsense thrown in - and this is incompatible with treating sex and relationships in such a manner.

So, you'll probably get lots of drunken flings, a good few 'affairs' (that end up breaking up the marriages), but very few mistress/lovers in the traditionally calculated way.

Boston

princess-lala wrote: »

Obviously if a man needs a mistress hes not getting what he needs at home! Its just a nicer term to cheating!

Proof, if proof was needed, that women are their own harshest critics.

sqlpod

I take it were not talking of a BDSM Mistress then (mmmmmmmm Lady Heather,CSI)

Boston

sqlpod wrote: »

I take it were not talking of a BDSM Mistress then (mmmmmmmm Lady Heather,CSI)

Thats exactly what we're talking about. Clever you, seeing through our elaborate code and reading between the lines. Did you use an enigma machine.

sqlpod

Correct Boston, I used the A620 cypher, a brilliant method to, oh what the heck no I'm just a kinky perv...