how bad are magners refs

outwest

james jones is prob the worst, macdowel, clancy and all the scotish are also awful refs.

yesterday connacht v glasgow, connacht take a good quick lineou, fionn has a clear run to try line, he blows up saying he wont have a quick lineout taking, another was conancht kick ball from 22, their full back drops its forward, jones gives penalty to glasgow for offside, then he ends the 1st half early with 30 seconds left on clock,connacht would have a lineout in attacking posision,

im sure others agree the reffing in this league is awful. we have the best refs in the world availible, rolland, owens, who are rarly put in charge of games, instead rolland will do an AIL games

f1dan

outwest wrote: »

james jones is prob the worst, macdowel, clancy and all the scotish are also awful refs.

yesterday connacht v glasgow, connacht take a good quick lineou, fionn has a clear run to try line, he blows up saying he wont have a quick lineout taking, another was conancht kick ball from 22, their full back drops its forward, jones gives penalty to glasgow for offside, then he ends the 1st half early with 30 seconds left on clock,connacht would have a lineout in attacking posision,

im sure others agree the reffing in this league is awful. we have the best refs in the world availible, rolland, owens, who are rarly put in charge of games, instead rolland will do an AIL games

For the lineout, Carr didn't use the same ball so it had to be called back.

I don't know what was wrong with his watch though. He blew the first half up early and then sent McCarthy back off the field despite the fourth official (timekeeper) letting him on after the sin bin.

He did have a shocker of a game. After it was pointed out to me that he was wearing fake tan I lost all reapect for him!

thomond2006

Dudley Phillips is officiating Dragons vs Munster today, I've seen him a few times and he's pretty consistent.

Thank the heavens that George Clancy hails from Munster.

I don't like James Jones and the Scottish ref that did Scarlets vs Ulster last night is terrible too. Last night he gave a penalty against a Scarlets player for swearing during open play, hilarity ensued on the commentary.

Risteard

thomond2006 wrote: »

Dudley Phillips is officiating Dragons vs Munster today, I've seen him a few times and he's pretty consistent.

Thank the heavens that George Clancy hails from Munster.

I don't like James Jones and the Scottish ref that did Scarlets vs Ulster last night is terrible too. Last night he gave a penalty against a Scarlets player for swearing during open play, hilarity ensued on the commentary.

That was the touch judges call.

PhatPiggins

They're by and large very poor but in their defence the ML is their training period for bigger things.Though judging by this years crop it'll be the social for most of them. The guy in charge of the Ulster game was ridiculously one sided, he refused to apply the same rules to both teams.

Having said that Connacht were poor really should have closed out the game against Glasgow. I cant understand why they didn't empty the bench in the last ten minutes with Glasgow down to 14.

They remind me of Ireland 98/99. Lots of pride, commitment and a sprinkling of talent but lacking in composure.

outwest

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Having said that Connacht were poor really should have closed out the game against Glasgow. I cant understand why they didn't empty the bench in the last ten minutes with Glasgow down to 14..

connacht were poor, and to answer your question on why didnt he empty the bench with 10 mins to go, because bradley doesnt do the senceable thing, connacht were awful, mattew made an awful decision in the second half, he went left when we had 2 runners on his right one being carr, he goes right in 3 on 1,

jones also binned macarty then it look liked the pen was against holding the ball in contact. wat did it look like on the tv,

thomond2006

Risteard wrote: »

That was the touch judges call.

Was it? Alright so. Terrible touch judging then.

Tim Robbins

outwest wrote: »

james jones is prob the worst, macdowel, clancy and all the scotish are also awful refs.

yesterday connacht v glasgow, connacht take a good quick lineou, fionn has a clear run to try line, he blows up saying he wont have a quick lineout taking, another was conancht kick ball from 22, their full back drops its forward, jones gives penalty to glasgow for offside, then he ends the 1st half early with 30 seconds left on clock,connacht would have a lineout in attacking posision,

im sure others agree the reffing in this league is awful. we have the best refs in the world availible, rolland, owens, who are rarly put in charge of games, instead rolland will do an AIL games

Have you reffed many games yourself?

outwest

a few but im not a professional ref who gets expenses paid,

what is your point

wixfjord

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Have you reffed many games yourself?

I respect you as a poste Tim but what has that got to do with anything? There seems to be anger on here every time the issue of bad refs in the Magners League is brought up, if they have a poor game, shouldnt they be criticised as such?? I myself am appalled at the standard of reffing in the ML, and have been for the past year or two, imo refs like Clancy, Fitzgibbon, Jones and previously the Ringaling brothers shouldnt be let anywhere near a top grade pro game. However, there are some great refs in the ML, including Nigel Owens, Alan Lewis and the best of them all imo Allan Rolland.

PhatPiggins

outwest wrote: »

connacht were poor, and to answer your question on why didnt he empty the bench with 10 mins to go, because bradley doesnt do the senceable thing, connacht were awful, mattew made an awful decision in the second half, he went left when we had 2 runners on his right one being carr, he goes right in 3 on 1,

jones also binned macarty then it look liked the pen was against holding the ball in contact. wat did it look like on the tv,

I thought it was a penalty myself(just) and the card was fair considering the number of penalties in the game. What really annoyed me is that he should have binned a Glasgow player(they were just as illdisciplined) as soon as they gave away a suitible penalty. He didn't and waited for another 3/4 penalties before binning Forrester some 30 mins later.

Look both teams were poor and I'm not a fan of ripping into refs but what I'd like to see is the ref consistently applying his interpretation of the rules to both teams regardless. Seems to be too much of one rule for the home team and another for the away.

JustinDee

outwest wrote: »

a few but im not a professional ref who gets expenses paid

How many fulltime refs (or professional refs as you call them) from Ireland are there?
None.

Risteard

JustinDee wrote: »

How many fulltime refs (or professional refs as you call them) from Ireland are there?
None.

Is Allain Roland not a full time ref? I don't know what the story is with how refs are paid etc.

Who would be an example of a fulltime one?

outwest

justing i dont understands your question. i didnt call them professionals.

our best refs are rarly involved with magenrs games,

JustinDee

wixfjord wrote: »

However, there are some great refs in the ML, including Nigel Owens, Alan Lewis and the best of them all imo Allan Rolland.

All of those refs had to start somewhere and all found it quite the challenge to progress.
Aside from Owens, they also have a life and a career to pursue so cannot ref every game going.

wixfjord

JustinDee wrote: »

How many fulltime refs (or professional refs as you call them) from Ireland are there?
None.

Yes but they get paid for refereeing though dont they?
Just on this Justin, I know me and you have had this out before, but what do you feel the standard of reffing, bar the above mentioned Lewis Rolland and Owens is like in the ML specifically?

JustinDee

outwest wrote: »

justing i dont understands your question. i didnt call them professionals.

our best refs are rarly involved with magenrs games,

My point is that they can only ref so many games as they are part-time officials. Their subsequent experience is not only vital to intl, ERC or ML games but the club game too.

I would say the Tim Robbins poster asked whether or not you had reffed a game before because its all very easy to sit from up in the stands or on a sofa and point out every twiggin' thing that goes on in a game.
Even from the line, all is not quite so clear as the expert from afar might think it to be.

JustinDee

wixfjord wrote: »

Yes but they get paid for refereeing though dont they?
Just on this Justin, I know me and you have had this out before, but what do you feel the standard of reffing, bar the above mentioned Lewis Rolland and Owens is like in the ML specifically?

'Professional refs' have to start somewhere as the three refs you mention also did.

outwest

my point is, rolland is reffing a AIL game today. why dont magners use the best refs available to them

JustinDee

outwest wrote: »

my point is, rolland is reffing a AIL game today. why dont magners use the best refs available to them

I just told you. They are doing just that.
He is part-time so might not have been available for other games.
The club level game also benefits hugely from having refs of Rollers' experience officiating fixtures.

Tim Robbins

wixfjord wrote: »

I respect you as a poste Tim but what has that got to do with anything? There seems to be anger on here every time the issue of bad refs in the Magners League is brought up, if they have a poor game, shouldnt they be criticised as such?? I myself am appalled at the standard of reffing in the ML, and have been for the past year or two, imo refs like Clancy, Fitzgibbon, Jones and previously the Ringaling brothers shouldnt be let anywhere near a top grade pro game. However, there are some great refs in the ML, including Nigel Owens, Alan Lewis and the best of them all imo Allan Rolland.

Fair enough. Apologies if my post was poorly put. I am against people just saying a ref is cr*p without going into any specifics.

What would be great is if people could reference specifics for example the moments in a game they weren't happy with. Then the rest of us can have a look.

Players, Refs, Coaches can too easily be the victims of armchair experts. I am not saying anyone is immune from criticism it should just be constructive - that means going into specifics to back your argument. That's all I am saying.

phog

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Have you reffed many games yourself?

Tim what has that got to do with it, when Kidney, EOS and other coaches, were being criticised I dont recall anyone being asked how many teams had the critic coached.

Do you accept the there are varying degrees of the standard of refs and that some refs which can lead to teams being beaten by poor decisions? I haven't seen all of the Connacht game so cant comment on it but I've seen enough of Jones to know that I dont like to see him reffing a Munster game.

castie

JustinDee wrote: »

I just told you. They are doing just that.
He is part-time so might not have been available for other games.
The club level game also benefits hugely from having refs of Rollers' experience officiating fixtures.

Part-time doesnt explain why owens was touch judge last night in ulster game.
I agree we need to give refs experience also (i.e cant be using the same guys all the time) but if they have a shocker and much like if a player has a shocker they should be criticised. For example when Tony Buckley gets criticised I dont see anyone coming out with "Have you propped many games yourself??".

No one in the game is free from criticism, if you play bad or in this case ref bad then youll get criticised. Im all for it as long as its not a blanket criticism of all refs.

JustinDee

phog wrote: »

Tim what has that got to do with it, when Kidney, EOS and other coaches, were being criticised I dont recall anyone being asked how many teams had the critic coached.

Do you accept the there are varying degrees of the standard of refs and that some refs which can lead to teams being beaten by poor decisions? I haven't seen all of the Connacht game so cant comment on it but I've seen enough of Jones to know that I dont like to see him reffing a Munster game.

He is saying rather than "that fella is crap", point out the actual decisions that you take so much umbrage with and you'll get an answer.

I'm personally sick of suffering non-stop hot air from the supporter behind me in the stand who is oblivious to the meaning of the word 'advantage' and can't watch a game with more than one bloody eye.

Tim Robbins

phog wrote: »

Tim what has that got to do with it, when Kidney, EOS and other coaches, were being criticised I dont recall anyone being asked how many teams had the critic coached.

Do you accept the there are varying degrees of the standard of refs and that some refs which can lead to teams being beaten by poor decisions? I haven't seen all of the Connacht game so cant comment on it but I've seen enough of Jones to know that I dont like to see him reffing a Munster game.

The post was poorly put.

Going back to the OP;

"yesterday connacht v glasgow, connacht take a good quick lineou, fionn has a clear run to try line, he blows up saying he wont have a quick lineout taking"
They are several reasons why a quick throw isn't allowed.


"another was conancht kick ball from 22, their full back drops its forward, jones gives penalty to glasgow for offside",
- Probably because a player was in front of kicker?


"then he ends the 1st half early with 30 seconds left on clock,connacht would have a lineout in attacking posision,"

The ref is sole judge of time. The TV time can be out of sync.

We need to see the incidents to elaborate further. Especially the first two. If you could reference the times they happen in the game and then if Setanta show it again we could give better answers.

JustinDee

castie wrote: »

Part-time doesnt explain why owens was touch judge last night in ulster game.
I agree we need to give refs experience also (i.e cant be using the same guys all the time) but if they have a shocker and much like if a player has a shocker they should be criticised. For example when Tony Buckley gets criticised I dont see anyone coming out with "Have you propped many games yourself??".

No one in the game is free from criticism, if you play bad or in this case ref bad then youll get criticised. Im all for it as long as its not a blanket criticism of all refs.

I couldn't care less if you reffed before or not.
If you're going to criticise then back it up with a precise example. Thats how refs are assessed. Video and time-stamp. Easy.
I explained why Owens was touch judge. You've also answered your question already ie. refs need experience.

outwest

but the stadium clock was stopping and starting in sync with the ref, the players on the field thaught that there was time left in the 1st half,



these refs have gotten experience over the last 2 or 3 season and they havent improved at all, jones biggest mistake yesterday was

box kick to full back or winger, i couldnt see number, he drops ball forward, gives team that dropped ball a pen, closest conn player was in between 10 and 22, atleast 15 metres from player, no conancht player was moving towards him.

thomond2006

Risteard wrote: »

That was the touch judges call.

Yup, here it is: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/welsh/8553060.stm

castie

JustinDee wrote: »

I couldn't care less if you reffed before or not.
If you're going to criticise then back it up with a precise example. Thats how refs are assessed. Video and time-stamp. Easy.
I explained why Owens was touch judge. You've also answered your question already ie. refs need experience.

My comment regarding part-time was more against people saying the reason rolland is refing AIL because hes part-time suggesting that the ML are picking the best available to ref a given game which isnt true.

JustinDee

castie wrote: »

My comment regarding part-time was more against people saying the reason rolland is refing AIL because hes part-time suggesting that the ML are picking the best available to ref a given game which isnt true.

It is true.
Just because he's available for an AIB League game, you're presuming he's available to travel for a ML game.

castie

If they were picking the best ref available Owens would of been the ref not the touch judge.

JustinDee

castie wrote: »

If they were picking the best ref available Owens would of (sic.) been the ref not the touch judge.

I was referring to Alain Rolland there.
Nigel Owens had reffed a game the night before, by the way.

wixfjord

You dont come across as the nicest in your posts JustinDee! Its almost as if 'Im in the know, your not, so your wrong'. Ive noticed this before, just a mon avis though!

Aidric

Risteard wrote: »

Is Allain Roland not a full time ref?

He holds a position with Cornmarket Group Financial Services. It was referred to in this profile of him in the Irish Times Six Nations magazine.

Alain and Lizzie have four children, Mark (10), Clodagh (eight), Natasha (six) and Amy (15 months), which means he has a very understanding wife, and very understanding employers, Cornmarket Group Financial Services.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2010/0203/1224263386238.html

chupacabra

Aidric wrote: »

He holds a position with Cornmarket Group Financial Services. It was referred to in this profile of him in the Irish Times Six Nations magazine.



http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2010/0203/1224263386238.html

Indeed, he revealed that he was offered the opportunity to become a full time referee but turned it down.

JustinDee

wixfjord wrote: »

You dont come across as the nicest in your posts JustinDee! Its almost as if 'Im in the know, your not, so your wrong'. Ive noticed this before, just a mon avis though!

I'm actually lovely.

JustinDee

Risteard wrote: »

Is Allain Roland not a full time ref? I don't know what the story is with how refs are paid etc.

Who would be an example of a fulltime one?

Didnt see this before.

There are actally no fulltime Irish refs.
The full-timers from Six Nations countries that I can think of are Nigel Owens, Chris White, Wayne Barnes, Christophe Berdos and Romain Poite.

Jonathan Kaplan, Stu Dickinson, Bryce Lawrence and Craig Joubert are the other fulltimers in the elite panel.
Mark Lawrence may be too but I'm not sure.

Risteard

Thanks for the replies. I find that surprising to be honest. To think the guy who was in charge of the World Cup final and is one of the better refs around is only part-time is surprising. Fair play to him and all the other Irish refs.

Tim Robbins

Risteard wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. I find that surprising to be honest. To think the guy who was in charge of the World Cup final and is one of the better refs around is only part-time is surprising. Fair play to him and all the other Irish refs.

Anyone else think the Irish refs are over talking. I think there's a lot saying the obvious like "carry - back" even when its blatanly obvious it was carried back. In other cases, (for example the schools games on Setanta) it was like the ref was almost telling them how to play the game.

I think its better to use the voice to:
- explain complicated things
- shout important things (things you are going to ping for if they don't comply).

and leave the simple and immaterial stuff. Some refs (not just Irish) sound like match commentators. Also if a ref is talking throughout the game, I think they are more likely to miss subtle infringements, blocking and things like that.

The game isn't about the ref. It's about the players.

thomond2006

I this appealing from players during open play has to be stopped. It's looks very bad to see players shouting at the ref to give a decision. A lot of teams including Munster and Ireland keep doing it. IMO refs should hand out free-kick offences for it.

What do you think Tim?

Podge_irl

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Anyone else think the Irish refs are over talking. I think there's a lot saying the obvious like "carry - back" even when its blatanly obvious it was carried back. In other cases, (for example the schools games on Setanta) it was like the ref was almost telling them how to play the game.

When the ref shouts "carried back" is it not just to inform his touch judge, who may not necessarily have as good a view of it.

JustinDee

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Anyone else think the Irish refs are over talking. I think there's a lot saying the obvious like "carry - back" even when its blatanly obvious it was carried back. In other cases, (for example the schools games on Setanta) it was like the ref was almost telling them how to play the game.

I think its better to use the voice to:
- explain complicated things
- shout important things (things you are going to ping for if they don't comply)

I see what you mean but take the following two examples into consideration when differentiating between the obvious and the complicated.

Caldwell comes round side of ruck and can see the ball but is in an offside position. Refs tell him he is offside. He looks at ref and goes for the ball. Ref says not to do that. He does exactly 'that' and is binned with a penalty to the side in possession.

Healy in another game was told not to interfere as he was offside. Heard the ref. Ignored the ref. Did it anyway. Binned.

My point is: Nothing is obvious on the rugby field

Tim Robbins

thomond2006 wrote: »

I this appealing from players during open play has to be stopped. It's looks very bad to see players shouting at the ref to give a decision. A lot of teams including Munster and Ireland keep doing it. IMO refs should hand out free-kick offences for it.

Yeah this is really annoying. Free - kick? I usually warn the captains, then it's penalties.

Podge_irl wrote:

When the ref shouts "carried back" is it not just to inform his touch judge, who may not necessarily have as good a view of it.

I think in most cases the TJ should know. I just think there's way too much talking. Especially of the obvious.

JustinDee wrote:

My point is: Nothing is obvious on the rugby field

Even if there's a lineout on the 10 and there's two passes back to the center in the 22?

Ireland V Wales last year Stephen Jones booted it out when it had been carried back. Ireland got a lineout in the 22, and ended up getting the decisive drop goal. Had Barnes gone out of the way to warn Stephen Jones, we may not have been grand slam champions.

I think the ref should only be shouting carried back for when its not obvious e.g. a ruck is on the 22 i.e. this is something grey and I am clarifying it for you so you can play the game. But for obvious stuff they should keep the trap shut and let players get on with it.

Downtime

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I think in most cases the TJ should know. I just think there's way too much talking. Especially of the obvious.

I disagree with you here. It is quite often the case that the touch judge may have been trailing and when the ball is kicked to his side could have been 50 metres from the kick. How is he meant to see where the player was and if it was carried in from a ruck just outside the 22 - very difficult to judge. Sure often he is closer to the 22 and should know but there are at least 2 / 3 occasions where is might be difficult for him

Risteard

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Yeah this is really annoying. Free - kick? I usually warn the captains, then it's penalties.


I think in most cases the TJ should know. I just think there's way too much talking. Especially of the obvious.


Even if there's a lineout on the 10 and there's two passes back to the center in the 22?

Ireland V Wales last year Stephen Jones booted it out when it had been carried back. Ireland got a lineout in the 22, and ended up getting the decisive drop goal. Had Barnes gone out of the way to warn Stephen Jones, we may not have been grand slam champions.

I think the ref should only be shouting carried back for when its not obvious e.g. a ruck is on the 22 i.e. this is something grey and I am clarifying it for you so you can play the game. But for obvious stuff they should keep the trap shut and let players get on with it.

I'd agree with you. I have no problem with a ref pointing out things like if they're to get their hands off the ball as the breakdown is an area of interpretation. But for obvious things like carrying the ball back into the 22, unless it's unclear like a scrum, it doesn't need to be said. These guys are professionals, they should know the rules that aren't left up to interpretation.

RE: the TJ situation. The ref could always just say it was carried back after the ball was out.

Also agree with the constant talking to the ref. Notice it a lot with Munster especially on Saturday with ROG and Quinnie doing a lot of talking. The only ones that should talk to the ref are the captain and an elected forward if the captain is a back - I mean what do the backs know about anything?:p

Podge_irl

I'll have to pay closer attention next time I watch, but I always thought the ref tended to shout "carried back" only after the ball had been kicked (or possible at it is being kicked), making it pretty clear that it's not an instruction to the player in question.

I do tend to agree with regards the ref giving instructions at a ruck. It's gotten to the point where some players/supporters seem miffed when the ref penalises a team despite giving no warning, even though he is under no obligation to do so.

Tim Robbins

Downtime wrote: »

I disagree with you here. It is quite often the case that the touch judge may have been trailing and when the ball is kicked to his side could have been 50 metres from the kick. How is he meant to see where the player was and if it was carried in from a ruck just outside the 22 - very difficult to judge. Sure often he is closer to the 22 and should know but there are at least 2 / 3 occasions where is might be difficult for him

Even when there's a lineout on the 10 and the ball is passed back?
That's the sort of stuff I am talking about.

How about Jones kick which meant we got in their 22 last season? Should Barnes have shouted carried back a bit louder?