greece

DERICKOO

Heroic Greek Parliament Just Passed Austerity Measure While Riots Erupt In Athens.


Most economists agree that it is a mistake to look at only one side of a balance sheet (whether for the public or private sector). One has to look not only at what a country or firm owes, but also at its assets. This should help answer those financial sector hawks who are raising alarms about government spending. After all, even deficit hawks acknowledge that we should be focusing not on today’s deficit, but on the long-term national debt. Spending, especially on investments in education, technology, and infrastructure, can actually lead to lower long-term deficits. Banks’ short-sightedness helped create the crisis; we cannot let government short-sightedness – prodded by the financial sector – prolong it.


reducing government spending is a risk not worth taking.

Time Magazine

Where do you suggest the government get the deficit money from?

Flamed Diving

I reckon the Acropolis would fetch a fair penny.

DERICKOO

Time Magazine wrote: »

Where do you suggest the government get the deficit money from?

You need to have the strength to run deficits when times are bad and surpluses when times are good. I mean what is so hard to understand that?

Flamed Diving

DERICKOO wrote: »

You need to have the strength to run deficits when times are bad and surpluses when times are good. I mean what is so hard to understand that?

When you run deficits, where does the extra money come from?

DERICKOO

Flamed Diving wrote: »

When you run deficits, where does the extra money come from?

The money doesn't exist. It is being borrowed from my grandchildren and they'll have to pay it back with interest when they grow up.

You know that huge national deficit that you keep hearing about? That's money that we've borrowed from other countries and need to pay back with interest. Since we are already in debt, that is where it will come from.

It's like in your family. You already have credit cards charged up and want to go on vacation. So you decide to go on vacation anyway and charge up the credit cards even more. But the debt is so big that you know that you won't have the time to pay it back in your lifetime. Your heirs will get the debt when you die. But that's okay because you'll be happy today.

I know it's sad, but that's about how it is.

I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT DIVING AS I'M SAT

Flamed Diving

DERICKOO wrote: »

The money doesn't exist. It is being borrowed from my grandchildren and they'll have to pay it back with interest when they grow up.

You know that huge national deficit that you keep hearing about? That's money that we've borrowed from other countries and need to pay back with interest. Since we are already in debt, that is where it will come from.

It's like in your family. You already have credit cards charged up and want to go on vacation. So you decide to go on vacation anyway and charge up the credit cards even more. But the debt is so big that you know that you won't have the time to pay it back in your lifetime. Your heirs will get the debt when you die. But that's okay because you'll be happy today.

I know it's sad, but that's about how it is.

I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT DIVING AS I'M SAT

Ok, so you don't mind destroying the future potential of a country, once you get enjoy a raised consumption pattern today.

Sounds like union thinking, alright.


However, you still haven't solved the problem of where Greece is going to source this debt.

DERICKOO

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Ok, so you don't mind destroying the future potential of a country, once you get enjoy a raised consumption pattern today.

Sounds like union thinking, alright.


However, you still haven't solved the problem of where Greece is going to source this debt.

FIRST DELETE IF FOUND INAPPROPRIATE .:eek:
I do not want to be banned. I WANT impunity

Greece can only be judged by her actions
It's 1 thing to pass the austerity measures to appease the EU and fend off the IMF but another to actually take the bitter medicines.
Greece is notorious for bribes and dodging taxes at every level of the society. Add militant unions to the mix and I see an anarchy rather than some kind of recovery.
Future heroic deeds heroically required of heroic Greek Parliament:

1. Investigate selves for bribery, tax evasion and fraud.

2. Crack down on wealthy people, lawyers and doctors who don't pay taxes.
3. Break all the trusts that cause retail prices of food and other essentials to rise 10% in a year of economic depression (didn't know about that one, did you?).*
SAME HERE. we are blind in our Eire.

4. Open new prisons to house all those convicted of above crimes.

ANGLO WOULD HOUSE MAYBE 360.

5. Ban the practice of allowing those convicted of non-violent crimes to buy their way out of serving their prison sentences.
AIN'T WE LUCKY.
6. Start a new anti-fraud division. Hire retired US Feds, IRS auditors OR EU and other such specialists to train a few thousand Greeks to catch folks doing any of the above. No hires over 30 OK MAYBE 35 they are already co-opted into the system of graft and bribery. Give them guns and the power to arrest.

Do this, or live with the junta that is coming.

IS MEMORY THAT SHORT.

* CPI in Greece has been a blatant lie ever since adoption of the Euro. A small bottle of water cost 100 drachma (bout 0.34 Euro) until the Euro was adopted, then jumped to 1 Euro afterwards - and this happened with pretty much every basic good in Greece.

Greece has a law banning smoking in ALL closed spaces. People still smoke EVERYWHERE with impunity, and nobody blinks an eye.... It's a really tough country to govern.

Ok diving want to know pm me i'm "SAT"

Excuse the caps in places.:o

Flamed Diving

I really, really don't want to PM you...

DERICKOO

Flamed Diving wrote: »

I really, really don't want to PM you...

no need was just interested to know what flamed diving meant.

Hasschu

Greek business people are an "interesting" bunch. When I was young and naive I worked for a Greek company in the ship operating and chartering business. The company operated out of London near the Baltic Shipping Exchange. They had three subsidiaries in Switzerland, Greece and Panama I was paid handsomely in cash monthly. I was also given advice to use certain banks in Amsterdam and New York where discretion was assured and the company could directly deposit my pay. Since I worked largely abroad the arrangements were not unusual. What I deduced was that the company put a lot of time and energy into tax avoidance and that was the Greek norm. Indeed it was the Irish norm up until the EU put its foot down in 1973. I distinctly remember some of my rosary bead fingering older female relatives having a cash register for the government and another for the family. The phrase " Sure the jails are full boy, do you think they need grandmothers in jail." was used frequently. Part of the wink, nod, nudge of Irish business culture. The Greeks are in transition to the EU norm but it will take a generation.

DERICKOO

Hasschu wrote: »

Greek business people are an "interesting" bunch. When I was young and naive I worked for a Greek company in the ship operating and chartering business. The company operated out of London near the Baltic Shipping Exchange. They had three subsidiaries in Switzerland, Greece and Panama I was paid handsomely in cash monthly. I was also given advice to use certain banks in Amsterdam and New York where discretion was assured and the company could directly deposit my pay. Since I worked largely abroad the arrangements were not unusual. What I deduced was that the company put a lot of time and energy into tax avoidance and that was the Greek norm. Indeed it was the Irish norm up until the EU put its foot down in 1973. I distinctly remember some of my rosary bead fingering older female relatives having a cash register for the government and another for the family. The phrase " Sure the jails are full boy, do you think they need grandmothers in jail." was used frequently. Part of the wink, nod, nudge of Irish business culture. The Greeks are in transition to the EU norm but it will take a generation.

I agree:rolleyes:

What can be done to reverse the culture of tax scamming?:eek: Writing about the 'revolt of the elites' American essayist Christopher Lasch warned in the 1980s against the corrosive effect on society when rich people withdraw from their responsibilities to the communities on which their wealth is based. But the rise of right-wing libertarian thinking in the 1970s gave the rich elites the "intellectual base" - read "excuse" - they needed to justify their greed and self-absorption.

And the 'revolt of the elites' has been mirrored by the growth of a supply side: a globalist tax evasion infrastructure that creates no wealth but nonetheless absorbs the intellectual capacity of a massive army of lawyers, bankers and accountants. This brainpower could be used far more productively in other, more socially worthwhile, activities. Not to mention the secrecy jurisdictions that provide the enabling environment of lax laws and regulation to exploit the weak framework on international cooperation on tax matters.

what a world we live in and we have Nama

Hasschu

John Kenneth Galbraith coined the phrase in the 1940s' "Conservatives are forever seeking the holy grail of a moral philosophy that justifies selfishness and greed." That has certainly stood the test of time. Another saying of his was that "nationalism is worth no more than 25 cents per hour". This referred to his friends and relations who flocked from southern Ontario Canada to the Detroit auto industry in the 1920s'. This always come to mind when I hear people saying I will not leave Ireland it would be a betrayal of my principles. My first principle was always make as much as you can while you can.

Torakx

You know the same people that helped the bank of Greece get around their debt issues in 2002 are having a meeting in Dublin in may this year.
So i would guess with that time frame in mind we can expect something similar in a few years.
More tax evasion and then backfire.

SLUSK

EU stands ready to lend €30 billion to Greece.
On both the national and international level the irresponsible get bailouts while the responsible people who did not do any mistakes get to pick up the tab.

Therefore it is rational to be irresponsible and irrational to act responsible since the irresponsible get all the benefits while the responsible people get to pick up the tab.

I hope all you people who advocated bailouts are happy with this world order.

Flamed Diving

SLUSK wrote: »

EU stands ready to lend €30 billion to Greece.
On both the national and international level the irresponsible get bailouts while the responsible people who did not do any mistakes get to pick up the tab.

Therefore it is rational to be irresponsible and irrational to act responsible since the irresponsible get all the benefits while the responsible people get to pick up the tab.

I hope all you people who advocated bailouts are happy with this world order.

I am.

SLUSK

Flamed Diving wrote: »

I am.

I do the only sane thing and bury my money in mining stocks since commodities will hit the stratosphere. I already done so with 25% of all my capital.

Anonymous1987

SLUSK wrote: »

I do the only sane thing and bury my money in mining stocks since commodities will hit the stratosphere. I already done so with 25% of all my capital.

I think you're drawing the right conclusion for the wrong reasons, most likely commodities are rising because China is buying them up.

Flamed Diving

Out of interest, does anyone think that to describe the offer of a 5% loan as a 'bailout' is a misnomer?

I realise market rates for Greek bonds are 7.5%, but, to me, the word bailout implies just giving someone the cash. I suppose it is a handy 'buzzword', though.

Finally, and more interestingly, anyone think they should just default?

res ipsa

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Out of interest, does anyone think that to describe the offer of a 5% loan as a 'bailout' is a misnomer?

I realise market rates for Greek bonds are 7.5%, but, to me, the word bailout implies just giving someone the cash. I suppose it is a handy 'buzzword', though.

Finally, and more interestingly, anyone think they should just default?

McWilliams has a good article on this in the SBP today, he reckons they will default, and then we will too.

SLUSK

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Out of interest, does anyone think that to describe the offer of a 5% loan as a 'bailout' is a misnomer?

I realise market rates for Greek bonds are 7.5%, but, to me, the word bailout implies just giving someone the cash. I suppose it is a handy 'buzzword', though.

Finally, and more interestingly, anyone think they should just default?

If via intervention from EU money is borrowed at below market rate to save the country from default it is by definition a bailout. The sage from Singapore, Jim Roges, thinks Greece should be allowed to default. Now the flood gates have been opened and you can sure as hell expect the other PIIGS to show up with their begging bowls.

Time Magazine

SLUSK wrote: »

The sage from Singapore, Jim Roges, thinks Greece should be allowed to default.

Other than him having made a bucket-load of cash trading shares, what makes you think that he knows anything about contagion in financial crises?

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/02/06/escaping-the-lion/

SLUSK

Time Magazine wrote: »

Other than him having made a bucket-load of cash trading shares, what makes you think that he knows anything about contagion in financial crises?

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/02/06/escaping-the-lion/

His predictions are accurate most of the time. Is that not proof enough?

Anonymous1987

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Out of interest, does anyone think that to describe the offer of a 5% loan as a 'bailout' is a misnomer?

I realise market rates for Greek bonds are 7.5%, but, to me, the word bailout implies just giving someone the cash. I suppose it is a handy 'buzzword', though.

Finally, and more interestingly, anyone think they should just default?

Its lower than market rates so I guess it is a bailout. George Soros warned on the possible consequences of not bailing out Greece earlier today in the FT. SLUSK you should check out this guys record!

SLUSK

Anonymous1987 wrote: »

Its lower than market rates so I guess it is a bailout. George Soros warned against not bailing out Greece earlier today in the FT. SLUSK you should check out this guys record!

George Soros and Jim Rogers co-founded the Quantum fund together and made heaps of money. Both have good track records yes but I believe in Rogers. Moral Hazard has been created here on a greater scale than ever before, do you think that Portugal, Italy and Spain will make any serious efforts to get their house in order now that they know Greece will be bailed out? How can the EU say no to these countries when they said yes to Greece?

Anonymous1987

SLUSK wrote: »

George Soros and Jim Rogers co-founded the Quantum fund together and made heaps of money. Both have good track records yes but I believe in Rogers. Moral Hazard has been created here on a greater scale than ever before, do you think that Portugal, Italy and Spain will make any serious efforts to get their house in order now that they know Greece will be bailed out? How can the EU say no to these countries when they said yes to Greece?

Moral hazard is a risk, point taken, but which is greater the risk of moral hazard or the risk of setting off a default domino effect in sovereign debt markets?

SLUSK

Anonymous1987 wrote: »

Moral hazard is a risk, point taken, but which is greater the risk of moral hazard or the risk of setting off a default domino effect in sovereign debt markets?

As a firm believer in free markets I think we should let bad investments default on principle.

Time Magazine

SLUSK wrote: »

His predictions are accurate most of the time. Is that not proof enough?

No. He predicts stuff like movements in the price of gold. That's not much use if you're interested in the contagion effects of a country defaulting.

You don't ask a quack psychiatrist about heart surgery.

Torakx

No point flogging a dead horse.It appears this is what they are doing every time a bank gets a "bailout".Were getting some liquidity maybe but it dries up the faster we flog that horse.
Im starting to think there is no fixing it with this system of money.

Hasschu

It is in the intererest of every individual in the EU that countries about to default on sovereign debt be bailed out. The repercussions stemming from a single failure would lead to a domino effect that would take down another half dozen countries including Ireland. The value of the Euro would drop precipitously by from 30% to 50%. Investment would approach non existence even in the stable and productive countries. Anger and hostility cannot be allowed to drive us into acting in ways that are detrimental to our own well being. Let us hope that the next two hardship cases occur before we have to go cap in hand full of hope to our would be saviours. At least now we have the play book.

Torakx

No problem im going to get the tally sticks ready for the next hit