another golden eagle poisoned

jwshooter

its very sad to see this going on still .

questions have to be asked .

why

how to stop it .

how to have a better communication with the farming community in such matters.

minds may meet or the eagles will keep suffering .

Cul a cnoic

Very sad indeed, seen him a few times around Glenveagh, lovely bird.

Article here: http://www.goldeneagle.ie/news_viewnews.php?x=5&z=132&news_id=11&article=262

kmart6

Terrible to see!

ivanthehunter

Jesus they were only on the telly tonight with Duncan!!

Sad-Yes I know but its painting a dark picture of for our future!!
I don't know if it was such a good idea to openly state which poison was used.. But i'll leave that to them that knows best.....

I for one knew nothing of the harmful effects of this common substance!! but now the world and its bitch of a mother knows--

Grizzly 45

Simple solution to this all.Ban poision baits.There would be an advantage for us in that[1] Hopefully farmers would take up to culling vermin,or hiring in "qualified marksmen" [IE us gunowners:D] to deal with such.Thussly getting us more shooting grounds,or encouraging farmers to aquire firearms,which in turn gets the gun trade moving,which generates some revenue,which benefits the country,which puts a smile on BIFFOS fat chops,and eventually gets us out of a hole.Amazing what a bit of simple common sense could do for your country..:D:D:D

Cul a cnoic

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Simple solution to this all.Ban poision baits.There would be an advantage for us in that[1] Hopefully farmers would take up to culling vermin,or hiring in "qualified marksmen" [IE us gunowners:D] to deal with such.Thussly getting us more shooting grounds,or encouraging farmers to aquire firearms,which in turn gets the gun trade moving,which generates some revenue,which benefits the country,which puts a smile on BIFFOS fat chops,and eventually gets us out of a hole.Amazing what a bit of simple common sense could do for your country..:D:D:D

Agree totally with you Grizzly 45

Terrier

ivanthehunter wrote: »

Jesus they were only on the telly tonight with Duncan!!

To see the photo's of Kerry Sea Eagles on EcoEye last night with little plumage left was a disgrace.

Max Power1

Cul a cnoic wrote: »

Very sad indeed, seen him a few times around Glenveagh, lovely bird.

+1

A truly beautiful bird, seeing that on the news damn near brings tears to the eyes.

ivanthehunter

I would like to see stuff like "piped piper " and "storm" sales with tighter control.. To many animals being destroyed in a cruel manner with poisons IMO.

I would also like to make it know that i know little of how these poisons work but I'm assuming the worst until i hear otherwise.........

Its laughable that we all harp on about effective killing calibers which cause an instant an respectful death of the target species yet these poisons are used nation wide and in every county across Ireland every day to deal with animal problems in a most despicable way causing untold amounts of pain and suffering...
Why is this happening. Well IMO too many rules have be put in place by people that have never really lived, book worm types and Blog Junkies to be specific.

Snares were unjustly victimized by anties showing the horrific pictures of the results of the now banned (UK)'self locking snares' and something had to be done- and something means anything to get a vote!!.
Instead of insisting on a sliding eye that failed under excessive pressure similar to that which a sheep could produce with her leg the government twined the art of snaring with 'wicker work:mad:' by insisting that all snares have sticks set above the stop large animals getting the legs caught!! FFS don't make be cry- What sort of sticks would you need to stop a cows leg!! FFS lets get Ray Mears out here to build me a prize winning bamboo structure with 20 of his Gurkha helpers:rolleyes::

Then we look at bird and rat control! Never has there be such a menace to vermin control than the death of air rifle ownership in this country. A system similar to that of the UK might have been a bit OTT but lets face with laws which forbid the shooting of any bird with an air rifle mean that the only real option is poison!!
The Security requirement should have made allowances for certain types of firearms IMO such as all air rifles below 18ft/lb being exempt form the overall security requirements save to say that they should still be licence at 80euro and still stored in a safe. Shooters in this country rarely bother with air powered firearms as most people only have 3 chooses- Usually its a shot gun an 22lr or mag and one centerfire rifle!!
We can forget about shooters setting up muzzle loading rifle clubs and using black powder in the Nanny State thanks to our security requirements!!
Never mind other over excited issues surrounding powder and primes and the like...
Other alternative to rifle hunting which would allow nearly all ages to have a go have been scratched of the books without even the slightest consideration as to whether or not they were a sport never mind the fact that the enriched our cultural diversity and are practiced across the world without any ill-effect People who know my posts know what I'm on about..
Young adults with time on the hands would jump at the chance to do some rat air-rifle shooting around sheds and farms yet the law put too many obstacles in ones path to allow this-- which for most countries would not be an issue..

The accepted used of poison is a direct result of our over legislation for other more traditional hunting methods- Some are banned in theory and others are made practicably impossible with rules..
All so these same curtailments on the old ways has has caused the proliferation of firearm ownership to rise within Ireland- and these firearms are a hell of a lot more dangerous to the general public that any little snare or air rifle or bow n arrow...

We need to rethink the whole situation in terms of legislation.

Our current policy on reloading does nothing to help with recycling of materials or the constant appearance of shot gun shells strewn into Irish ditches across the land and discarded brass! Its completely laughable that our legislation has put us in this difficult place as plastic continues to poison our worlds oceans.

I for one have no faith in this headless faceless system..

Regards Ivanthebowhunter..

Vegeta

Really disappointing news.

kakashka

AFAIK it was not a poison but an overdose that was claimed,poison bait is already banned

bunny shooter

I'm sure they will find a way to blame shooters for this :mad:

bunny shooter

kakashka wrote: »

AFAIK it was not a poison but an overdose that was claimed,poison bait is already banned

Poison is only banned on meat. It can still be used on non meat based substances. But this only menas those who will obey the law won't use meat based substances though :rolleyes:

Imagine it's very hard to catch and prosecute someone putting out a laced rabbit unless they are caught in the act

kakashka

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Simple solution to this all.Ban poision baits.

Fairly sure they already are banned Grizzly

kakashka

bunny shooter wrote: »

Poison is only banned on meat. It can still be used on non meat based substances. But this only menas those who will obey the law won't use meat based substances though :rolleyes:

Imagine it's very hard to catch and prosecute someone putting out a laced rabbit unless they are caught in the act

i'm not sure bunny to be honest,if the word bait is used does it not cover more than just meat?, anyway i dont think it was a poison that was used , if they put real effort into it they might be able to catch someone but as you say hard,i actually think that they did more harm by going public in the way they did

ivanthehunter

OK crow flies into Framers supply store- eats some of the dark red poisoned corn and flies off to die. But lets say a long wing or short wing hawk get his claws into said crow now this hawk eats small crow whole!! whats to stop poison from have an effect..

Poisons are bad news and TBH once an animal is poisoned no body wants to use its meat of fur for any reason...
IMO Its a total sin to be involved in this activity unless there are no other alternatives..

Remember we are in this situation because of do-gooder legislation which was drawn up over a morning coffee!!! Once again knee jerk reaction comes back to bit..

And yes the finger of suspicion will point at the hunting community as a whole

johngalway

It's easy to blame farmers.

Two words.

PROVE IT.

I'm annoyed that we're always the first to get the blame for everything in this ****ing country.

Birdnuts

johngalway wrote: »

It's easy to blame farmers.

Two words.

PROVE IT.

I'm annoyed that we're always the first to get the blame for everything in this ****ing country.

The facts of this case are as follows:

The carcass of a dead lamb heavily laced with the same poison that killed the scavaging eagle were found pretty much side by side - it has also been established that no lambing flocks had been let out on the mountain when the dead eagle was found due to bad weather. The poison used was a type of liver fluke treatment that is only used on adult sheep - and what type of people have access to lambs and agri-chemicals?? - pretty much an open and shut case i would have said .

PS: The tragedy of all this is that the young eagle was reared as a chick by his parents on a diet that included fox cubs and crows, so just goes to show the ignorance and stupdity of the person/s behind this vile act:mad:

johngalway

Birdnuts wrote: »

The facts of this case are as follows:

The carcass of a dead lamb heavily laced with the same poison that killed the scavaging eagle were found pretty much side by side - it has also been established that no lambing flocks had been let out on the mountain when the dead eagle was found due to bad weather. The poison used was a type of liver fluke treatment that is only used on adult sheep - and what type of people have access to lambs and agri-chemicals?? - pretty much an open and shut case i would have said .

PS: The tragedy of all this is that the young eagle was reared as a chick by his parents on a diet that included fox cubs and crows, so just goes to show the ignorance and stupdity of the person/s behind this vile act:mad:

What's to stop someone getting a dead lamb, by chance or design please. We've had a LOT of harsh weather that will have been hard on flocks who have already lambed or are currently lambing. I am sure not all lambs survived.

What is to stop someone putting a poison in or on that same lamb? It does not proce beyond doubt that a farmer was responsible. The information is easily come by. Even in a recent article they named the poisons. So it appears maybe only farmers can read I guess.

My point, that it is easy to blame farmers, is because things can be made look a certain way if wished.

My question remains, prove it.

The Gardai or Rangers, if involved, would have already prosecutted someone if evidence was available.

As I said on the other thread, if a body is found in your backyard, does that 100% mean YOU killed it?

Come off it. The facts you state are misleading you into thinking they're ultimate proof.

jwshooter

Birdnuts wrote: »

The facts of this case are as follows:

The carcass of a dead lamb heavily laced with the same poison that killed the scavaging eagle were found pretty much side by side - it has also been established that no lambing flocks had been let out on the mountain when the dead eagle was found due to bad weather. The poison used was a type of liver fluke treatment that is only used on adult sheep - and what type of people have access to lambs and agri-chemicals?? - pretty much an open and shut case i would have said .

PS: The tragedy of all this is that the young eagle was reared as a chick by his parents on a diet that included fox cubs and crows, so just goes to show the ignorance and stupdity of the person/s behind this vile act:mad:

the dait was put out to kill vermin ,before lambs were let out a common pratice (in the past).


we can lay blame all nite and fall out with each other that will solve noting.

the local farmers said they did not know eagles were in the area .

( why ) ?

is it a case of another government over sight ,they keep forgetting about the people that work and live on the land.

as well as a heaven for wild life the national parks are also a haven for vermin ,spilling out onto lands miles away.

were the local gun clubs ever asked to control vermin on the lands where the eagles fly over.

the project will never work if all bodies in rural ireland dont pull together.

no point gormley ,banning this or that from his office in dublin.

kakashka

ivanthehunter wrote: »

OK crow flies into Framers supply store- eats some of the dark red poisoned corn and flies off to die. But lets say a long wing or short wing hawk get his claws into said crow now this hawk eats small crow whole!! whats to stop poison from have an effect..

Poisons are bad news and TBH once an animal is poisoned no body wants to use its meat of fur for any reason...
IMO Its a total sin to be involved in this activity unless there are no other alternatives..

Remember we are in this situation because of do-gooder legislation which was drawn up over a morning coffee!!! Once again knee jerk reaction comes back to bit..

And yes the finger of suspicion will point at the hunting community as a whole

Hold on a sec ivan,this was not poison as far as i can see,there will always be something available that can be used,FFS if we can legally poison our kids from head shops what hope do a couple of Eagles have,not a supporter of poisons nor an expert but i'm fairly sure that legal poisons can not kill twice,maby someone else can shed more light on that

bunny shooter

These birds are lovely and they have one thing in common with us shoters/hunters ............they need the co-operation of the farming community to exist.

It must not be forgotten that farmers are trying to make a living off the land where the rest of us make a living in other ways.

I doubt this lamb was left out to kill the eagle, more likely grey crows, magpies and foxes.

jwshooter

bunny shooter wrote: »

These birds are lovely and they have one thing in common with us shoters/hunters ............they need the co-operation of the farming community to exist.

It must not be forgotten that farmers are trying to make a living off the land where the rest of us make a living in other ways.

I doubt this lamb was NOT left out to kill the eagle, more likely grey crows, magpies and foxes.

fixed that for bs hope you dont mind .

greenpeter

If the people who let the eagles out spent more time controlling the vermin we have then this wouldn't have such problems and blaming the farming community (the easy target again).

Framing is hard enough without heading to check your stock in the mornings find ewes and lambs minus a few eyes.

I would think its some nobody acting the maggot killing these birds just to make head lines.

jwshooter

greenpeter wrote: »

If the people who let the eagles out spent more time controlling the vermin we have then this wouldn't have such problems and blaming the farming community (the easy target again).

Framing is hard enough without heading to check your stock in the mornings find ewes and lambs minus a few eyes.

I would think its some nobody acting the maggot killing these birds just to make head lines.

i dont think so ,poison is not species pacific .

Birdnuts

jwshooter wrote: »

the dait was put out to kill vermin ,before lambs were let out a common pratice (in the past).


we can lay blame all nite and fall out with each other that will solve noting.

the local farmers said they did not know eagles were in the area .

( why ) ?

is it a case of another government over sight ,they keep forgetting about the people that work and live on the land.

as well as a heaven for wild life the national parks are also a haven for vermin ,spilling out onto lands miles away.

were the local gun clubs ever asked to control vermin on the lands where the eagles fly over.

the project will never work if all bodies in rural ireland dont pull together.

no point gormley ,banning this or that from his office in dublin.

Throwing sheep carcasses(whether poisoned or not) around hillsides and fields is actually now illegal. Secondly if poison is laid the Gardai should be informed. In any case this indiscriminate, ineffective and cruel practice has been banned in every other advanced European country except this banana republic which is why the Golden Eagle trust is taking the government to the EU court since this practice from the dark ages flouts pretty much every environmental/wildlife directive that is now officially the law across the EU. Indeed the activities of these handfull of luddities recalls the dark days of the past when the uncontrolled use of strychnine(now banned thankfully) carcasses wiped out a number of endangered species and killed countless number of innocent pets and valuable working sheepdogs etc. Coming from a farming background in Mayo I can recall the latter problem vividly during the 80's. Thankfully since then the majority of sheep farmers had long abandoned this ineffective and indiscriminate practice in favour of common sense approaches such as proper housing and electric fencing which protected lambs until they were strong enough to fend for themselves.

In any case the majority of responsible sheep farmers do not leave young lambs on bitter mountainsides at this time of year since bad weather/poor husbandry is by far the leading cause of lamb deaths. The tragedy of what is now apparently an out of control illegal practice in the West of Ireland is the fact one of the major items of prey for Golden Eagles in Donegal were crows and fox cubs which proves they are very much the farmers friend.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Scumbags whoever done this... absolute selfish scumbags...

kay 9

kakashka wrote: »

Hold on a sec ivan,this was not poison as far as i can see,there will always be something available that can be used,FFS if we can legally poison our kids from head shops what hope do a couple of Eagles have,not a supporter of poisons nor an expert but i'm fairly sure that legal poisons can not kill twice,maby someone else can shed more light on that

I know of something alot of farmers use/used for fluke control mainly in cattle aka TRODAX. But it's a well known (poison) to most of the agri and country community folks, not only farmers. It also can be got easily in pharmacies or veternary offices/shops. Apparently it can kill as much as 2 or 3 times, I forget the exact. Also stricnyne (excuse spelling) kills up to 7 times and although illegal is still f***in rampant. So it's up to the policing of all this as far as I'm concerned.

Grizzly 45

ASFIK Trodax and all these kind of medicines had become vetinary prescription or vet administerd drugs only??Remember early morning RTE radio was full of these medicine adverts in the 1980s..
So did somone have some stuff left over and decided to go after foxes and orther vermin using an illegal bait method?Or did somone aquire this stuff specifically for poisioning everything and anything??
Either way bad news.

homerhop

Gramoxone is used around here by a certain individual. He puts it out for dogs roaming on his land.

kakashka

kay 9 wrote: »

I know of something alot of farmers use/used for fluke control mainly in cattle aka TRODAX. But it's a well known (poison) to most of the agri and country community folks, not only farmers. It also can be got easily in pharmacies or veternary offices/shops. Apparently it can kill as much as 2 or 3 times, I forget the exact. Also stricnyne (excuse spelling) kills up to 7 times and although illegal is still f***in rampant. So it's up to the policing of all this as far as I'm concerned.

Eat enough of anything and it will poison you,weedkiller or pesticides would be even more dangerous IMO but what can you do

kakashka

Birdnuts wrote: »

The facts of this case are as follows:

The carcass of a dead lamb heavily laced with the same poison that killed the scavaging eagle were found pretty much side by side - it has also been established that no lambing flocks had been let out on the mountain when the dead eagle was found due to bad weather. The poison used was a type of liver fluke treatment that is only used on adult sheep - and what type of people have access to lambs and agri-chemicals?? - pretty much an open and shut case i would have said .

Well actually the carcase was found INSIDE the bird and i'll say it again,it was not poison.
Anyone can purchase these products.
The type that is only used on sheep???MOST are universal,sheep/cattle
Hardly an open and shut case

kakashka

jwshooter wrote: »

i dont think so ,poison is not species pacific .

Lots of substances are harmfull to some and not others so actually yes they can be pacific

Birdnuts

kakashka wrote: »

Well actually the carcase was found INSIDE the bird and i'll say it again,it was not poison.
Anyone can purchase these products.
The type that is only used on sheep???MOST are universal,sheep/cattle
Hardly an open and shut case

Thats not what I heard from people on the ground in Sligo - the eagle had ingested some of the laced carcass but the rest was found nearby. I'll make the point again, young lambs are not treated with the product in question - its only used on adult sheep!!

kakashka

Birdnuts wrote: »

Throwing sheep carcasses(whether poisoned or not) around hillsides and fields is actually now illegal. Secondly if poison is laid the Gardai should be informed. In any case this indiscriminate, ineffective and cruel practice has been banned in every other advanced European country except this banana republic which is why the Golden Eagle trust is taking the government to the EU court since this practice from the dark ages flouts pretty much every environmental/wildlife directive that is now officially the law across the EU. Indeed the activities of these handfull of luddities recalls the dark days of the past when the uncontrolled use of strychnine(now banned thankfully) carcasses wiped out a number of endangered species and killed countless number of innocent pets and valuable working sheepdogs etc. Coming from a farming background in Mayo I can recall the latter problem vividly during the 80's. Thankfully since then the majority of sheep farmers had long abandoned this ineffective and indiscriminate practice in favour of common sense approaches such as proper housing and electric fencing which protected lambs until they were strong enough to fend for themselves.

In any case the majority of responsible sheep farmers do not leave young lambs on bitter mountainsides at this time of year since bad weather/poor husbandry is by far the leading cause of lamb deaths. The tragedy of what is now apparently an out of control illegal practice in the West of Ireland is the fact one of the major items of prey for Golden Eagles in Donegal were crows and fox cubs which proves they are very much the farmers friend.

Will the golden eagle trust look for a ban on Veterinary medicines too??

kay 9

kakashka wrote: »

Eat enough of anything and it will poison you,weedkiller or pesticides would be even more dangerous IMO but what can you do

There aint much more dangerous than stricnyne that I know of unless you can get your hands on some tear gas. 1cc of that trodax will kill anything from a field mouse to a great dane. Know farmers that have done it rather than shoot their dog. But I agree with your point on eat enough of anything.
Moral I suppose is how mis-informed people actually are.

Birdnuts

homerhop wrote: »

Gramoxone is used around here by a certain individual. He puts it out for dogs roaming on his land.

This kind of reckless behavior continues to kill non-target species up and down the country(though from what I'm hearing it appears to be more of a problem in the West of the country given that the Red Kite project in Wicklow has only lost one bird to this type of thing compared to the carnage thats been inflicted on the eagle projects in Kerry and Donegal).

Could you suggest that individual that he cop on and use a gun instead

kakashka

Birdnuts wrote: »

Thats not what I heard from people on the ground in Sligo - the eagle had ingested some of the laced carcass but the rest was found nearby. I'll make the point again, young lambs are not treated with the product in question - its only used on adult sheep!!

So why did i not hear that someone had been arrested and charged??easy to trace this substance back to a container or Pharmacy/vet

Birdnuts

kakashka wrote: »

Will the golden eagle trust look for a ban on Veterinary medicines too??

No - The problem that needs to be tackled is the blatant mis-use of these chemicals by a small number of ignorant gombeens in the sheep farming community

Birdnuts

kakashka wrote: »

So why did i not hear that someone had been arrested and charged??easy to trace this substance back to a container or Pharmacy/vet

Really thats news to me:eek: - please expand!!

kakashka

kay 9 wrote: »

There aint much more dangerous than stricnyne that I know of unless you can get your hands on some tear gas. 1cc of that trodax will kill anything from a field mouse to a great dane. Know farmers that have done it rather than shoot their dog. But I agree with your point on eat enough of anything.
Moral I suppose is how mis-informed people actually are.

Awn no Kay 9, i ment more dangerous than trodax

kakashka

Birdnuts wrote: »

No - The problem that needs to be tackled is the blatant mis-use of these chemicals by a small number of ignorant gombeens in the sheep farming community

How do you know it's not some old timer,after loosing his gun because he was unable to fathom the new app or afford it,or even read it properly,doing what he thought was right to protect his only means of income?

snowstreams

As long as the poison bait was covered with camoflaged netting and tied down it wouldnt kill many, if any birds of prey. Only foxes would find it.
And surely shooting would be far more effective for getting rid of grey crows than poison. Since eagles kill crows, the eagle would be a benefit for the farmer. Many Donegal farmers have had very few lamb deaths due to crows since the eagles were introduced.

Birdnuts

snowstreams wrote: »

As long as the poison bait was covered with camoflaged netting and tied down it wouldnt kill many, if any birds of prey. Only foxes would find it.
And surely shooting would be far more effective for getting rid of grey crows than poison. Since eagles kill crows, the eagle would be a benefit for the farmer. Many Donegal farmers have had very few lamb deaths due to crows since the eagles were introduced.

Exactly:)

Birdnuts

kakashka wrote: »

How do you know it's not some old timer,after loosing his gun because he was unable to fathom the new app or afford it,or even read it properly,doing what he thought was right to protect his only means of income?

There were no lambs on the mtn in question - in any case responsible sheep farmers wouldn't allow young lambs to be out in such exposed conditions at this time of year - bad weather is by far the biggest killer of lambs as i pointed out in an earlier post - in a few weeks they'll be too big for fox's anyway.

jwshooter

STOP FOR FUXK SAKE.


the birds are dead . how do we as environmentalist save the other 25 from going the same way.

you can throw blame all nite ,like i said many posts ago . not one of you have offered a suggestion on how to stop it

can the mods do some modding hear.

Sparks

jwshooter wrote: »

can the mods do some modding hear.

JW, the only charter breach here so far has been back-seat modding. It's not a productive discussion, but that's not against the rules.

homerhop

Simple fact is JW you wont stop it, there will always be someone who will believe that laying poison is acceptable. No amount of information or discussion will ever counter act ignorance or the ingrained self belief that a certain method of doing something such as laying poison is the only way. Its not just golden eagles, all our bird of prey species are to be protected yet there are still many involved in clubs that will and do shoot them.

Remember when the talks of releasing the birds first appeared, the huge outcry of full sheep being carried off. Why did the trust or government or who ever the hell has a say in these things sit down with the IFA/ Nargc. Was there not a page with the facts and myths about the birds printed in the Irish Indo, Farmers Journal and every other daily rag that is purchased and a letter sent to all gun clubs in the areas that the birds were released. Its still not too late to do that.
Tell the clubs get involved that it is a vested intrest and since we are so keen to be seen as environmentalist get off our arses and go around to the farmers in these areas and see what their concerns are. It may not acheive anything in the short term but hell its a start

ivanthehunter

Let RTE run some adverts for a week! Same stuff the do to teach madmen how to drive around roundabouts...
Tell farmers that have vermin trouble to search out local hunters to help with any issues!
Tell'em to report any suspected baiting up with poisons and offer a reward for info leading to capture of culprit of this case!!

Education is the only option! If this don't work we we better go start building concentration death camps and fall out shelters because if we cant get over this simple concept then we're on the road to HELL>>..

jwshooter

if there grant cheque or reps money was stopped they would take notice.

johngalway

jwshooter wrote: »

if there grant cheque or reps money was stopped they would take notice.

And again, since Birdnuts cannot answer, where is your proof of whodunnit?

Don't know what you work at JW but would you be happy with a similar situation applied to yourself with no proper evidence?