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Macreddin

  • 02-03-2010 5:01pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 606 ✭✭✭


    Hi folks,

    Was on the phone to Macrerddin today and they currently only have 9 holes open as "some of the bridges have collapsed!". Has anyone been out in the last week or so or does anyone have any idea what happened?

    Bit strange to happen to a club that is only open a couple of years??


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭heavyballs


    Tin_Cup wrote: »
    Hi folks,

    Was on the phone to Macrerddin today and they currently only have 9 holes open as "some of the bridges have collapsed!". Has anyone been out in the last week or so or does anyone have any idea what happened?

    Bit strange to happen to a club that is only open a couple of years??

    it's a bit strange alright but pretty self explanetary i would have thought,what more do you need to know?
    Both bridges that cross par 4 12th and the par 5 15th are partially collapsed.
    This is just a guess but i presume as they're at the bottom of respective slopes bad design and drainage lead to this


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭MasterKZG


    Nobody had predicted this kind of weather would have some serious impact on the golf course. But it did and we all in the process of repairing it!

    It's a pity coz the 12th and 14th are such a great holes.:):):)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭heavyballs


    MasterKZG wrote: »
    Nobody had predicted this kind of weather would have some serious impact on the golf course. But it did and we all in the process of repairing it!

    It's a pity coz the 12th and 14th are such a great holes.:):):)


    so why isn't every club in Ireland repairing bridges and closing holes down,bad design and brutal drainage from day 1 with that course,what a pity when you see they have probably the best greens in Ireland(and yes you may tell by my tone i'm a disgruntled ex member)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33 Donnchadh


    Does anyone know if Macreddin is back to the full 18 holes? I'm thinking of playing there this weekend.

    Any opinoins on the course would be great too. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 281 ✭✭dnjoyce


    only played it once but the layout is great and the greens were fantastic. Back 9 is the stronger but also hillier of the 2 with the 12th standing out as a real gem. They had money issues from the start I think, lots of empty shells from the propsed housing scheme around the place - the showhouses are outrageous though! If they are back to 18 you should defo check it out.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 255 ✭✭BOB81


    Donnchadh wrote: »
    Does anyone know if Macreddin is back to the full 18 holes? I'm thinking of playing there this weekend.

    Any opinoins on the course would be great too. :rolleyes:

    I played there two weeks ago - the full 18 were open. One of the best parkland courses I've played (was only €22 on teetimes.ie so made it even better!), but its fairly hilly so bear that in mind. Some top holes, the 2nd,4th (70/80ft downhill par 3 - like the 10th at the hermitage if you've ever played there), 9th & 12th are all excellent holes IMO. Also the greens were in decent condition but looked a lot faster than they actually turned out to be if that makes sense


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭MasterKZG


    Bob81...glad you had a good time down at the club. You certainly got your money worth for sure. Defintely the best parkland course around and its still only a few years old!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭stumpypeeps


    Played there last weekend myself. Great course in great condition too at the minute. Are they still looking for €8000 to join?

    If they had a reasonable yearly subscription I'm sure they'd do well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 659 ✭✭✭Nemesis


    I'm a member of Woodenbridge which is the closest golf club to Macreddin.

    Even if it is a competitor for scarce resources (green fees) I have to say it is a great course.

    It reminded me of some Spainish/Portuguese courses but a lot greener :).

    Well worth a visit .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭heavyballs


    Played there last weekend myself. Great course in great condition too at the minute. Are they still looking for €8000 to join?

    If they had a reasonable yearly subscription I'm sure they'd do well.

    they're not open for membership at the mo as it's still in receivership,some of the original members(approx 30)have set up their own commitee etc and paid €500 each last year,the rest of the original members(approx 65) all walked away.
    The 30 'members' havn't even been invoiced for this year's subs.

    if they opened it up for about €800 for the year i'd say they'd get a lot of interest,the greens are tops.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 717 ✭✭✭jimjo


    heavyballs wrote: »
    they're not open for membership at the mo as it's still in receivership,some of the original members(approx 30)have set up their own commitee etc and paid €500 each last year,the rest of the original members(approx 65) all walked away.
    The 30 'members' havn't even been invoiced for this year's subs.

    if they opened it up for about €800 for the year i'd say they'd get a lot of interest,the greens are tops.

    I take it they got their money (€8,000) back? Must say its a course i'd like to play.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭heavyballs


    jimjo wrote: »
    I take it they got their money (€8,000) back? Must say its a course i'd like to play.

    hehe,not a chance,that money's gone as is the original Macreddin PLC company that was set up,
    the original price was €30k and i know 2 people that paid that,the rest i know paid €6k not the €8k advertised,either was it's tough schits


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,844 ✭✭✭Jimdagym


    Played today, my god thats some course. Bridges still out, and bunker work going on at the back of the 7th. Other than that the course is impeccable. The green's are outrageous!! Some monster hills to climb around too.

    Loved every second of it tbh.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 501 ✭✭✭d2ww


    Played there first the first time myself as well. The course was well worth the trip, a great variety of holes and very scenic, but I don't know if I would want to be playing it week in, week out unless I was a mountain goat. The one gripe I would have is the paths, and there's a lot of them, were really rough for pulling a trolley.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,844 ✭✭✭Jimdagym


    d2ww wrote: »
    Played there first the first time myself as well. The course was well worth the trip, a great variety of holes and very scenic, but I don't know if I would want to be playing it week in, week out unless I was a mountain goat. The one gripe I would have is the paths, and there's a lot of them, were really rough for pulling a trolley.

    Yeah, the paths were bad. Was a bit bizarre pulling the trolley through the village towards the 10th. Was expecting a little bit more from the clubhouse too:p. But from tee to green, every hole was flawless, its all the other stuff was a bit mad!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭MasterKZG


    I'm a member myself of the club and even though its quite hilly, u kinda get use to it!!! Only 2 climbs throughout the course that are mad !!:p

    I love the walk between the village on a sunday really after the 9th hole, it's a nice little walk with all the farm animals and people chattering around you.

    As for the path, its something the club is working on and it's their target to sort that out at the moment! But to me that is a minor issue. The course itself is fanastic, the greens are top class and the scenery is breathtaking.

    Even though i shelled out a fair bit of money for this, i really love it and have no regrets!! I have played a fair bit of golf around the country and not many match the qualty of this course ( i know its easy saying that but its so true).:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33 Donnchadh


    I played yesterday I have to say this is an unbelievable course. I absolutely loved it. It's tough going at times on the back 9 with the hills but that's only a minor issue. And all for €25

    The greens were the best I've played on anywhere. They were a little slow but perfectly true with lots of sublte breaks. I'll be back next week to play again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭MasterKZG


    Donnchadh wrote: »
    I played yesterday I have to say this is an unbelievable course. I absolutely loved it. It's tough going at times on the back 9 with the hills but that's only a minor issue. And all for €25

    The greens were the best I've played on anywhere. They were a little slow but perfectly true with lots of sublte breaks. I'll be back next week to play again.

    Glad you enjoyed it donnchadh, it's unbelievable!! If the greens were slow yesterday, then that is probably at its slowest!! They are alot firmer and faster!! What you make of the 4th,6th,8th,12th,13th,16th and 17th?

    Happy days then!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 432 ✭✭Hacker111


    well designed and a beautiful track, a good walk but worth it.... financially I have no idea how a receiver can justify keeping it open with no tangible cash flows/clubhouse/membership etc... must be leaking a fortune.... location is just too remote....unfortunately I feel it will be closed in 18 mths unless a rich Oil Baron buys it! Maybe going to NAMA and it will become a public course....hehe


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭MasterKZG


    Miracles can happen!!! :rolleyes:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭heavyballs


    MasterKZG wrote: »
    I'm a member myself of the club and even though its quite hilly, u kinda get use to it!!! Only 2 climbs throughout the course that are mad !!:p



    Even though i shelled out a fair bit of money for this, i really love it and have no regrets!!

    a couple of things if you don't mind.
    firstly i don't beleive you really mean it when you say you've no regrets,secondly,you say you're a member yet as i understand it you're money is gone for good and although the 29 existing members have their GUI status at last you're membership means nothing

    correct me if i'm wrong but you havn't even been sent invoices from Mr.Taite's firm for 2010

    i hope for youre sake you didn't shell ut the top dollar 30k,the fact that you havn't been invoiced yet doesn't sound good or make sence,


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭heavyballs


    Hacker111 wrote: »
    well designed and a beautiful track, a good walk but worth it....

    i must disagree regarding design,or maybe to be fair the land is too hilly for a course
    the front nine is not bad at all apart from the stupid walk back up after the gimic Par 3.
    Don't get me wrong i like the course,best greens around,love the 2nd hole from the tee it looks amazing
    However it gets a bit crazy on the back nine and this is where the bad design comes in,going up a hill twice is not needed(walk to play 13 and walk up 15)
    I can see some deal being done with The Brooklodge as i beleive the 2 lads there are involved in some complicated way
    Maybe they'll keep it open as a 9 hole or maybe that's what they should have done in the first place


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭MasterKZG


    Well there isnt anything i can do to make you belive that i really meant what i said when i have no regrets joining the club. I truly do!

    You correct saying that our membership means nothing and our money is gone but i didnt pay the big whack for it so i lost a few thousand as the worst case sceanrio. But getting the GUI for me was more important. I know i could have got that elsewhere but Macreddin is a true fine course and well worth the hassle. Again if you don't belive me then that isn't my problem.

    No invoice yet but whether that a good or bad thing, it dont bother me as i can play as much as i can!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭MasterKZG


    I disagree with your comment regarding to the stupid walk back up after the par 3. Its a tiny little hill walk. Get over it!! ;)

    Firstly the walks up to the 13th and 15th are simple little walks again.Secondly it always worth it when you arrive at the teebox and see the rest of the course, fanastic views down the fairways.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

    I'm sorry if you feel grieved about the course and the tiny hills. But overall it still a top class course and nothing ,not even the little walks up to the 4th,13th and 15th tee box can change my view.

    Happy days


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭heavyballs


    MasterKZG wrote: »

    Firstly the walks up to the 13th and 15th are simple little walks again.Secondly it always worth it when you arrive at the teebox and see the rest of the course, fanastic views down the fairways.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

    I'm sorry if you feel grieved about the course and the tiny hills. But overall it still a top class course and nothing ,not even the little walks up to the 4th,13th and 15th tee box can change my view.
    tiny hills and little walks?i think it may be time for a bit of reality ,r u in a buggy or what
    secondly on the handicapp situation you said it was more important to get your h'cap sorted than losing your cash
    if that's the case why did you post on here earlier in the year saying that you were representing Tulfarris(i think)in a club comp,if it's the case that you're a member of both clubs(hhmmm i doubt it)you certainly do pick your clubs wisely


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭MasterKZG


    heavyballs wrote: »
    tiny hills and little walks?i think it may be time for a bit of reality ,r u in a buggy or what
    secondly on the handicapp situation you said it was more important to get your h'cap sorted than losing your cash
    if that's the case why did you post on here earlier in the year saying that you were representing Tulfarris(i think)in a club comp,if it's the case that you're a member of both clubs(hhmmm i doubt it)you certainly do pick your clubs wisely


    Lol..So funny Dectective Frost!!! :D:D:D

    No longer a member of Tulfarris!!!! Now a happy member of Macreddin GC.:D:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭MasterKZG


    Having said all that, i dont wish to get into some of a tiff about the club. I still think its a top course no matter what.

    So happy golfing.:):):):)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭heavyballs


    MasterKZG wrote: »
    Lol..So funny Dectective Frost!!! :D:D:D

    No longer a member of Tulfarris!!!! Now a happy member of Macreddin GC.:D:D

    when did you join,membership has been closed for quite a while now,and just to set the record straight,what does being a member of Macreddin mean,there are no members,Macreddin plc is non existant now,i know there is a comp sec etc out of the 30 or so 'so called' members but would i be right in saying that those members can be turfed out now if the receiver requested it
    so what i'm saying is you're not really a member,there is no such thing

    finally what do you an the rest of the gang think is going to happen,i heard a rumour there's something going to be announced from the receiver in the coming weeks


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 717 ✭✭✭jimjo


    Jaysus heavyballs has some one from Macreddin stolen your sweets?! Its like your out to get this master guy!! Look from what I can gather the place is in a poor financial situation, like many other courses in the countries, maybe Macreddin might be worse off than others but at least for the time being anyway its still open for business

    From the photos it seems like a nice course. Hills dont bother me at all, so really hope to play it shortly. Although Master appears to have lost money on his membership at least he has no regrets and really likes the course, the most positive way to look at the situation.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,798 ✭✭✭Mister Sifter


    Any man who complains about having to walk up a few hills on a golf course needs to get their lard ass on to a treadmill.

    It's not that the course is too hilly, it's the fact that you're most likely unfit that's the problem!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭heavyballs


    Any man who complains about having to walk up a few hills on a golf course needs to get their lard ass on to a treadmill.

    It's not that the course is too hilly, it's the fact that you're most likely unfit that's the problem!
    yeah ok then,i don't know if you know the area but have just come back from my twice a week 12 mile run around Bray and up to Windgates in Bray,add that to the 4 8 milers i do a week.
    Have you played the course?,because if you havn't your comment has no basis
    just because i complained about the course being too hilly doesn't mean i'm not fit enough to handle the hills i just feel the design is bad and the land not best suited for a top course
    name a top course in Ireland that is as hilly as Macreddin

    It's also too hilly to attract older members which has affected the club financially,i know this for a fact,on the club's open day in July 2008 8 members i know from Delgany(a hilly course)played it,they all agreed it would never be a course because it's too hilly and there's no flow to the course


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭heavyballs


    jimjo wrote: »
    Jaysus heavyballs has some one from Macreddin stolen your sweets?! Its like your out to get this master guy!! Look from what I can gather the place is in a poor financial situation, like many other courses in the countries, maybe Macreddin might be worse off than others but at least for the time being anyway its still open for business

    From the photos it seems like a nice course. Hills dont bother me at all, so really hope to play it shortly. Although Master appears to have lost money on his membership at least he has no regrets and really likes the course, the most positive way to look at the situation.

    point taken i didn't mean to lash him but his story doesn't fit,ther has been no new members in Macreddin for well over a year but he seems to be a new member


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭stumpypeeps


    heavyballs wrote: »
    yeah ok then,i don't know if you know the area but have just come back from my twice a week 12 mile run around Bray and up to Windgates in Bray,add that to the 4 8 milers i do a week.
    Have you played the course?,because if you havn't your comment has no basis
    just because i complained about the course being too hilly doesn't mean i'm not fit enough to handle the hills i just feel the design is bad and the land not best suited for a top course
    name a top course in Ireland that is as hilly as Macreddin

    It's also too hilly to attract older members which has affected the club financially,i know this for a fact,on the club's open day in July 2008 8 members i know from Delgany(a hilly course)played it,they all agreed it would never be a course because it's too hilly and there's no flow to the course

    I've played it a number of times. Firstly, its a wonderful design on the whole, the greens, fairways and tee's are all excellent. Its a wonderful setting with some brilliant holes.

    It is as heavyballs says very hilly, is it too hilly? Well I don't think I could bring my Dad for a round there much and all as I like it. Their are a number of very challenging hills. I would consider myself as fairly fit and strong and I found some of them pretty tiring. But I'd have no problem playing there every day of the week. I love it. I just wouldn't bring anyone who is a bit older or not in good fitness.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭MasterKZG


    Heavyballs, i understand your grievence since you were an ex member yourself and i take your points/issues, no problems at all. :D

    I joined the club just a little over a year ago!!! I'm quite happy with my decision. Tulfarris was another club of mine before but not now!!!!:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,335 ✭✭✭conno16


    good course IMO
    not everyone is into flat fairways btw


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭heavyballs


    MasterKZG wrote: »
    Heavyballs, i understand your grievence since you were an ex member yourself and i take your points/issues, no problems at all. :D

    I joined the club just a little over a year ago!!! I'm quite happy with my decision. Tulfarris was another club of mine before but not now!!!!:D

    fair enough,i didn't think new members were possible since the receivership,


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭heavyballs


    conno16 wrote: »
    good course IMO
    not everyone is into flat fairways btw

    that's great,if you like hilly courses off you go,i don't mind them myself but if i was to design a course,i would make it suitable for all golfers,this course is not suitable for older golfers,that's why out of the original 90 or so members about 5 were over 50,i think the course attracted about 2 or 3 women,not a coincidence btw


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,098 ✭✭✭Johnny_Fontane


    heavyballs wrote: »
    name a top course in Ireland that is as hilly as Macreddin

    Esker Hills......lowrys home course - cant believe he was walking around there on a regular basis as an amateur.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭heavyballs


    Esker Hills......lowrys home course - cant believe he was walking around there on a regular basis as an amateur.....
    it's not comparable but yes it is hilly,have you played Macreddin


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,063 ✭✭✭Adiaga 2


    It's definitely the hilliest course I have played but also one of the best. I hope it has a future but agree that it is very remote and must struggle to attract visitors. I played it during a stay at Brooklodge in October and the course was almost empty. I admit at some points during the round I wished I had a cart or even an electric trolley but the quality of the course more than offset the extra effort on the legs. The hardest part I found was the slow incline on hole 10 and the first half of 11. The biggers hills on 12 - 16 weren't as bad as they looked I found. It's a course I'd love to play again.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭heavyballs


    Adiaga 2 wrote: »
    It's definitely the hilliest course I have played but also one of the best. I hope it has a future but agree that it is very remote and must struggle to attract visitors. I played it during a stay at Brooklodge in October and the course was almost empty. I admit at some points during the round I wished I had a cart or even an electric trolley but the quality of the course more than offset the extra effort on the legs. The hardest part I found was the slow incline on hole 10 and the first half of 11. The biggers hills on 12 - 16 weren't as bad as they looked I found. It's a course I'd love to play again.

    tbh i know i was giving out about the hills but i would go down for a game just for the greens,they are top class
    completly agree re:the 10th and 11th,2 weak holes imo,also i think the walk up to the 15th(Par 5) is a killer,have played with a few short hitters who can't hit it to the crest of the hill and they are wrecked by the time they get to the top


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭MasterKZG


    Now we can agree that the 10th and 11th hole are probably the weakest holes on the course but by no means they are the easiest despite the high index of the holes.The climb can be a bit of bollixs if you knackered already but by the time u reach the 11th green, it all magical after that.

    Most clubs around the country do have 1-2 bland holes but sometimes we all need a little help in our game. The 15th fairway can be a killer if u a short hitter for sure. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,335 ✭✭✭conno16


    heavyballs wrote: »
    that's great,if you like hilly courses off you go,i don't mind them myself but if i was to design a course,i would make it suitable for all golfers,this course is not suitable for older golfers,that's why out of the original 90 or so members about 5 were over 50,i think the course attracted about 2 or 3 women,not a coincidence btw

    good arguement


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 318 ✭✭Unglika Norse


    Esker Hills......lowrys home course - cant believe he was walking around there on a regular basis as an amateur.....

    who in the name of the almighty would think that Esker Hills is one of the top courses in Ireland, it's tricked up although the par 3s are good and possibly the 17th is the best hole in it


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭MasterKZG


    Macreddin still rocks anyway!!!

    Happy golfing. Tim Clark to win the Players Championship.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭MasterKZG


    For those who dont like the slow slow incline of the 10th,11th and the killer 15th hole .....dont depair....

    The bridges on the back 9 have been repaired. So the buggies are out and available!!! :):)

    There some great deals on green fees + buggies during the week and weekend. Details to be announced on the website over the next few days!

    Happy days!!!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,844 ✭✭✭Jimdagym


    MasterKZG wrote: »
    For those who dont like the slow slow incline of the 10th,11th and the killer 15th hole .....dont depair....

    The bridges on the back 9 have been repaired. So the buggies are out and available!!! :):)

    There some great deals on green fees + buggies during the week and weekend. Details to be announced on the website over the next few days!

    Happy days!!!!!

    Thats class, was not going back till the buggies were back on!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,691 ✭✭✭david


    Hi firstly I must say that I am an official representative of the Golf Course. This post is not intended as a shill or spam, just to clear up a few issues regarding our current situation as I hear all of the rumors going around and 95% of them are chinese whispers.

    Bridges on back 9 - These were damaged during the floods earlier in the year, river bank erosion under the reinforced concrete foundations on some holes led to us closing the back 9 for play as a safety precaution. It was nothing to do with bad planning or poor drainage. This situation has been resolved and we have been back to a full fleet of buggies for rental for some time now.

    Facilities - We have moved from our office in Brook Mews and are now in a temporary structure in the carpark beside the first tee. We currently have no showering facilities, just a basic area for changing shoes etc. There is a myriad of pubs and restaurants both in Macreddin and Aughrim Village which all cater for our golfers. 99.9% of our guests know this beforehand and all seem delighted to play a fantastic course at a much reduced rate when compared to other top courses with better aprés golf facilities. We do not have the facility to take credit cards so I'm afraid it's cash only at the moment. There are two ATMs down the road (~1.5km) in Aughrim; Londis and the Post Office.

    Course Condition - As many have mentioned already, the course is in top nick with some of the best greens in the country. If anything the course condition has improved as it matures since receivership (Still a relatively young course, 2 years as 18 holes). Our team of four greenkeepers do a suberb job maintaining the course.

    Special Offers & Package Deals - I am not going to discuss this as it is against the forum charter, anybody who is interested in playing with us can find them with a little googling.

    Facebook - If you enjoyed the course become a fan of our page. There is a complimentary fourball up for grabs for whoever writes the best review or posts the best fan photos, closing date 31st July 2010 which we just launched yesterday! There's a link to it on our homepage.

    Any course news or updates will be posted in the What's New insert on the left hand side of our homepage which we append to multiple times per week.

    I hope this clarifies the situation and I hope the fourball goes to a fellow boards.ie member,
    It is very much WYSIWYG at the moment here at Macreddin, a great game of golf!

    Kind Regards,

    David Lee on behalf of the Macreddin Team.


    Mods: Please PM me if you feel this is a shill and I will edit my post accordingly.


    http://macreddingolfclub.com/default.asp


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 103 ✭✭Conor J


    thanks for clearing some of that up Dave, Im interested in playing there this summer.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭heavyballs


    it's a great set up for the 30 or so 'members' down there who havn't even been asked for subs this year by the receiver,and no that's not a chinese whisper,it's fact
    i wonder how that can work,what's the plan short to medium term does anyone know?


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