solar panel rip-off?

pollydolly

Those who hate environmentalism have spent years looking for the definitive example of a great green rip-off. Finally it arrives, and nobody notices. The government is about to shift £8.6bn from the poor to the middle classes. It expects a loss on this scheme of £8.2bn, or 95%. Yet the media is silent. The opposition urges only that the scam should be expanded.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/mar/01/solar-panel-feed-in-tariff

Macha

OP, please state your opinion and don't simply quote the first paragraph of the article.

Also, this is an Irish forum, not an English one.

Cookie_Monster

This is a good initiative and will ultimately push the research and efficiency of micro generation upwards. IMO in the next 10-15 years every house should have its own PV solar system, once systems improve to a certain point you'd be mad not to, (even in Ireland:rolleyes:).

YourSQL

maybe they shouldnt bother with high feed in tarrifs and just give grants for the solar panels.

feed in tariff is only 9c over here, but i suppose that is only if you produce more than you use.

I'd go off the grid if i could, and run most things off 12v directly. grid-tie inverters + feeding back into the grid incurs a substatial loss.

if there were some good 30Wh/Kg ultracapacitors that i could actually buy in ireland rather than importing from some obscure location it would hardly be worth staying on the grid. solar panels are far from a rip off now, grid parity will be reached here soon if it isn't already

of course the biggest rip off is when you don't install this stuff yourself. the company installing them effectively pockets the grant and the government is supporting this sort of carry on with mandating 'professional installation' - in most cases just a bunch of cowboys who just want to get the job done as fast as possible and collect the cash

quentingargan

YourSQL wrote: »

feed in tariff is only 9c over here, but i suppose that is only if you produce more than you use.

I'd go off the grid if i could, and run most things off 12v directly. grid-tie inverters + feeding back into the grid incurs a substatial loss.

The feed in tariff is 19c for the first 3,000 units exported at present, 9c thereafter.

Grid tie inverters are a lot more efficient than batteries. Modern inverters are 94% efficient.

Mozart1986

YourSQL wrote: »

maybe they shouldnt bother with high feed in tarrifs and just give grants for the solar panels.

feed in tariff is only 9c over here, but i suppose that is only if you produce more than you use.

I'd go off the grid if i could, and run most things off 12v directly. grid-tie inverters + feeding back into the grid incurs a substatial loss.

if there were some good 30Wh/Kg ultracapacitors that i could actually buy in ireland rather than importing from some obscure location it would hardly be worth staying on the grid. solar panels are far from a rip off now, grid parity will be reached here soon if it isn't already

of course the biggest rip off is when you don't install this stuff yourself. the company installing them effectively pockets the grant and the government is supporting this sort of carry on with mandating 'professional installation' - in most cases just a bunch of cowboys who just want to get the job done as fast as possible and collect the cash

The amount of times I've seen people with solar panels on the North side of their homes is unbelievable. Most people are so stupid I'm surprised they can tie their own shoe-laces, let alone install solar panels. To see these amazing North-facing solar panels, with technology so advanced that they don't even need to face the sun, drive up the N3 to Cavan, from Dublin. There is also a wind-turbine, in the middle of drumlins, crazy stuff! So professional installation is necessary, if not for yourself, but there should be inspectors to weed out the cowboys. People that do insulation are the worst, 60% of them are pure cowboys, but people don't know what a well insulated house feels like, so they don't realise they've been shafted. They just think that they wasted their money.

quentingargan

Mozart1986 wrote: »

The amount of times I've seen people with solar panels on the North side of their homes is unbelievable. So professional installation is necessary, if not for yourself, but there should be inspectors to weed out the cowboys.

Things aren't generally that bad... The vast vast majority of solar panels are not on the north side of a roof. I once had an enquiry from somone who wanted panels on the north roof where they would be conspicuous from the road, but we talked 'em out of that!

There is a system of inspection by SEI and installers must have passed a FETAC training course. There are some deficiencies in the standards to my mind, but not to the point of a plethora of north-facing panels. The deficiencies I see are the lack of heat dumps (to dump surplus heat during vacations etc), inadequate heat loss protection on other pipework coming off the cylinder, badly set up controllers etc. Some of these systems may give trouble in time, but SEI insists on a five year warranty.

Mozart1986

quentingargan wrote: »

Things aren't generally that bad... The vast vast majority of solar panels are not on the north side of a roof. I once had an enquiry from somone who wanted panels on the north roof where they would be conspicuous from the road, but we talked 'em out of that!

There is a system of inspection by SEI and installers must have passed a FETAC training course. There are some deficiencies in the standards to my mind, but not to the point of a plethora of north-facing panels. The deficiencies I see are the lack of heat dumps (to dump surplus heat during vacations etc), inadequate heat loss protection on other pipework coming off the cylinder, badly set up controllers etc. Some of these systems may give trouble in time, but SEI insists on a five year warranty.

I'm not lying or exagerating. Maybe its just a phenomena located around the N3, but there are loads of them. You definitely need people to install them, and also inspectors. I don't know how many inspectors the SEI has.

Isn't it mad though, you even said you had your own experience with it. People actually think that solar panels will work ok faced away from the sun!?!

quentingargan

Mozart1986 wrote: »

Maybe its just a phenomena located around the N3......People actually think that solar panels will work ok faced away from the sun!?!

Maybe they're watching too much "Home & Away"?:)

freddyuk

quentingargan wrote: »

The feed in tariff is 19c for the first 3,000 units exported at present, 9c thereafter.

Grid tie inverters are a lot more efficient than batteries. Modern inverters are 94% efficient.

I understand the FIT is 10c after the first 3,000 units but only for 5 years. Also this is only for the first 4,000 applications?
Not sure if this will be revised in the future but i am enquiring about this option.
Compared to the UK scheme it is a bit mean!

Feel free to correct me on this

Cheers

Mozart1986

quentingargan wrote: »

Maybe they're watching too much "Home & Away"?:)

Thats probably right, so they must also be completely flumixed when they flush the toilet or leave the tap running:)

pollydolly

taconnol wrote: »

OP, please state your opinion and don't simply quote the first paragraph of the article.

Also, this is an Irish forum, not an English one.

Mother Earth does not understand national borders, they are a man-made concept - we are all earthlings!

davidconnors

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

This is a good initiative and will ultimately push the research and efficiency of micro generation upwards. IMO in the next 10-15 years every house should have its own PV solar system, once systems improve to a certain point you'd be mad not to, (even in Ireland:rolleyes:).

I looked into the micro generation windturbines and found them expensive with a very long payback on the lower cheaper versions. I found that higher capacity industrial units made more sense.
I fitted a <snip> thermodynamic solar panel system and found it was much better than traditional solar as it can even be used at night. I am a huge convert now as the savings are real. (Got a 250, single panel system for 5 people in house)

djpbarry

davidconnors wrote: »

I fitted a <snip> thermodynamic solar panel system and found it was much better than traditional solar as it can even be used at night.

You've had three posts on this forum and in every single one, you've promoted a certain company. Please note that advertising/shilling is not permitted. It is quite possible to discuss the merits of solar panels without repeatedly referring to a specific supplier.

d'Oracle

pollydolly wrote: »

Mother Earth does not understand national borders, they are a man-made concept - we are all earthlings!

Mother Common-Sense understands that Ireland has no such policy and whinging about british policies on an Irish website is pure nonsense.

Shiny

I'm sure the German solar feed in tariff had a similar loss but it
contributed to a massive surge in solar research and development world wide.

For that alone, it is worth it.

quentingargan

Shiny wrote: »

I'm sure the German solar feed in tariff had a similar loss but it
contributed to a massive surge in solar research and development world wide.

For that alone, it is worth it.

Yes, but Spain took the same approach, paying 45c per KwHr, then when the quota was met, they reduced the price to about 31c, and the industry imploded. In Germany the tariff is still very generous, so the industry remains buoyant, but it is hard to imagine it remaining so lucrative if the price dropped significantly.

But Ireland will never be a major player in solar - we don't have the competitive edge that would apply in more southern countries. Our competitive edge would be in wind and wave power surely?

Shiny

I agree that the industry wouldn't be too lucrative if the tariffs were
to be taken away but they serve to create demand for solar products
which in facilitates advancements in the technology. Eventually the
prices of production should fall to the level where tariffs are not
necessary any more.

There is no denying that solar performance is relatively poor in
Ireland but it isn't much better than Germany either. I think solar
will have a place in Ireland when the prices come down because not
everyone will be able to install a wind turbine.