Excessive speeding in exceptional circumstances - Opinions please

Voodoomelon

Hi folks.
Without going into much detail, my best mate who lives a few houses down the road from me (just outside Dundalk) has been accepted (thank the lord ) onto a UK transplant list. There is a good chance within the next 12 months that he will get a call, day or night, that the surgical team has found suitable organs for him.

Now in normal circumstances, candidates like himself are bed ridden in hospital and will get the call, be taken via Garda escort down the motorway at over 100mph and put on a medical aircraft and flown to Newcastle. It is imperative, as you might imagine that the patient get to the hospital in Newcastle as quickly as is humanly possible.

However my mate is healthy enough considering, and lives a normal enough life. As such, it is down to either his family, or me, to get him to Dublin airport from his house, as soon as is humanly possible. If i'm available, I will be taking him and his mother down the M1. Whilst my car is no rocketship, it would amonst the fastest in the area and is very capable of, and at, high speeds.

We live about 10-15 minutes from Dundalk Garda station and have no intention of waiting for a car to get out to us. I will be foot down and onto the M1 and have every intention of going 100mph + to get him to Dublin airport. We have no problem ringing the Gardaí to let them know we are coming and to see if they can join up with us on the M1, but no doubt they wouldn't be able to find us in time.

My questions are, what would you all consider to be a safe speed to be going, considering the circumstances, assuming its not raining/snowing/icey? I suppose that depends somewhat upon the driver; i'd consider myself quite capable, but there is fast and there is dangerously fast. I've heard these Garda escorts go at frightening speeds when they're properly organised.

My other question is would their be any repercussions to travelling so fast if I were clocked (which I would be at the Dunleer speed camera) or if I was reported/stopped by the Gardaí?

Thanks for reading.

The Nutty M

My own feeling is that they wouldnt give you an escort with blue lights,they'd look for him to be put in the garda vehicle and driven at high speed by a trained driver.

Hope he gets a donor.:)

Jip

I can't see why you don't think the gardai will be able to meet you either locally or somewhere along the way, that shouldn't be an issue. Have you already met the gardai to discuss this ? As has been said though, they'd probably frown upon you driving at such speeds and would probably recommend an ambulance or something

E39MSport

Sounds risky to me. If get pulled over then you'll likely be delayed longer than it would take for the boys to show with the car. Plus you seem to be assuming that a plane will be waiting on the Tarmac. The boys in blue would probably be better equipped to have everything in place while en route. There's also the risk that you'll be waiting for some class of transplant should you have an accident. Hope it goes well for him

Voodoomelon

Jip wrote: »

I can't see why you don't think the gardai will be able to meet you either locally or somewhere along the way, that shouldn't be an issue. Have you already met the gardai to discuss this ? As has been said though, they'd probably frown upon you driving at such speeds and would probably recommend an ambulance or something

His acceptance is very recent news, so not yet no. My thoughts were that perhaps Drogehda unit(s) could meet us somewhere on the M1 in that area if we rang ahead.

Tigger

if you arent used to driving at 100 then it coulkd be dangereous

i understand your point but ......

i hope that your mate gets his transplant

Voodoomelon

E39MSport wrote: »

Plus you seem to be assuming that a plane will be waiting on the Tarmac

There would be. The slowest part of the process is any time hes in a car.

Traumadoc

I have been in one of those convoys with a garda escort - It is much more dangerous than you think.
Much better to be in the garda car.

L1011

The M1's design speed is 100mph (160km/h) at its lowest specced sections. A number of motors forum members will have completed the entire distance of it, bar the toll, at this speed or higher in trafficless conditions. You aren't going to fly off a bend at 160...

In even light traffic 140km/h is dangerous enough though, more so if you're not used to driving at that speed or have a ****ebox (although going on your sig, I suspect your car can handle that speed!)

Big Nasty

Bollox!

If you get 'the news' go like a bat out of hell, get someone to call the gardai and explain the scenario that it's literally life or death and you're friend has to get the transplant in order to live. Ask for an escort or for them to take over en route. No member of AGS in the country is going to do you under these circumstances. Can you see the headlines: 'Transplant Patient Dies Because AGS Hold Driver'

Naw, me neither.

Voodoomelon

MYOB wrote: »

The M1's design speed is 100mph (160km/h) at its lowest specced sections. A number of motors forum members will have completed the entire distance of it, bar the toll, at this speed or higher in trafficless conditions. You aren't going to fly off a bend at 160...

In even light traffic 140km/h is dangerous enough though, more so if you're not used to driving at that speed or have a ****ebox (although going on your sig, I suspect your car can handle that speed!)

Honestly I wouldn't consider 140kph to be dangerous on a motorway, but I think 160, 170 would be about my limit capability-wise, and so as not to be dangerous to other road users.

I suppose the biggest issue would be other drivers not expecting someone to be going so fast. That to me would be the most dangerous part about it.

Tea 1000

Voodoomelon wrote: »

There would be. The slowest part of the process is any time hes in a car.

How would there be?
Also you should note that you'll only really save 5 minutes at best on your trip driving like a lunatic and risking lives as opposed to driving at maybe 20km/h over the limit in light traffic. The only time you'd actually gain that 5 minutes is if the plane was sitting on the tarmac, engines running, take-off cleared, and you could drive straight up to the door of it.
If I were you I'd spend more time talking to the Dublin airport authorities about getting through to departures from the front door in an emergency as quick as possible. That's all providing there's a scheduled flight waiting for you and ready to go. I don't see how a phone call from a hospital could possibly co-incide to that fine a timeline though.

corktina

>80 km....you wont save that many minutes by excessive speeding...half an hour at 160 km/h, 40 minutes at 120 km/h. Not worth the risk, better to get there safely.

Hope it all goes OK with your pal

Absurdum

If time is that important, an air ambulance could be arranged to take the patient from here to either Dublin Airport or Casement Aerodrome.

DancingPriest

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I will be foot down and onto the M1 and have every intention of going 100mph + to get him to Dublin airport.

what would you all consider to be a safe speed to be going, considering the circumstances, assuming its not raining/snowing/icey? I suppose that depends somewhat upon the driver;.

My other question is would their be any repercussions to travelling so fast if I were clocked (which I would be at the Dunleer speed camera) or if I was reported/stopped by the Gardaí?

Thanks for reading.

First of all, I have to say fair play for wanting to help out a mate.

However, I can't help but think you already know the answers to your questions.
Your speed will be determined by the conditions and your ability, if you think you're going too fast, then you are going too fast, nobody on an internet forum can know what is safe for you.
As for the repercussions, If you get him there ASAP, without crashing and more effictively than the other options you have outlined, then... Screw the repercussions, you're going to be a local legend :cool:.

copacetic

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Can you see the headlines: 'Transplant Patient Dies Because AGS Hold Driver'
.

Considering the guy is currently living at home pretty comfortably that isn't really going to happen is it.

OP, it simply isn't worth it, you are saving 30 mins or so max, which would be pretty risky minutes when it doesn't appear that those 30 minutes would make a difference.

The same way the surgeons aren't sprinting down the corridors to do the surgery you shouldn't speed to get hime there. Going a reasonable pace and being careful is the key.

Tea 1000

copacetic wrote: »

Considering the guy is currently living at home pretty comfortably that isn't really going to happen is it.

OP, it simply isn't worth it, you are saving 30 mins or so max, which would be pretty risky minutes when it doesn't appear that those 30 minutes would make a difference.

The same way the surgeons aren't sprinting down the corridors to do the surgery you shouldn't speed to get hime there. Going a reasonable pace and being careful is the key.

If he was coming from Galway at 160km/h he might save 30 minutes. From Dundalk he'd want to be travelling at Mach 2 to save 30 minutes!!

Voodoomelon

Tea 1000 wrote: »

How would there be?
Also you should note that you'll only really save 5 minutes at best on your trip driving like a lunatic and risking lives as opposed to driving at maybe 20km/h over the limit in light traffic. The only time you'd actually gain that 5 minutes is if the plane was sitting on the tarmac, engines running, take-off cleared, and you could drive straight up to the door of it.
If I were you I'd spend more time talking to the Dublin airport authorities about getting through to departures from the front door in an emergency as quick as possible. That's all providing there's a scheduled flight waiting for you and ready to go. I don't see how a phone call from a hospital could possibly co-incide to that fine a timeline though.

Its actually a very complicated process. Even after he gets the call, procedures and steps for the transplant have been active for over 6 hours. The plane is not a regular chartered flight, its a low flying medevac plane that will be ready and waiting. There is a reason why police escorts drive so fast in these situations, every minute counts. So sticking the cruise control to 120kph or 140kph doesn't cut it, its about going as fast as possible where the road and conditions allow.

MagicMarker

Edit: Nevermind.

I think in your car 100mph or even more would be nothing. I have pushed up to around 125mph on a rare occasion or two on the M6 and while its fast its not that fast and in felt quite safe in my car. I'd wager you could do that speed very comfortably in your car with out feeling anyway uncomfortable.

Voodoomelon

copacetic wrote: »

Considering the guy is currently living at home pretty comfortably that isn't really going to happen is it.

OP, it simply isn't worth it, you are saving 30 mins or so max, which would be pretty risky minutes when it doesn't appear that those 30 minutes would make a difference.

The same way the surgeons aren't sprinting down the corridors to do the surgery you shouldn't speed to get hime there. Going a reasonable pace and being careful is the key.

Its not so much the patient that matters, the ironic thing is if he was sicker, he'd be in an ambulance and going slower. Its more to do with the transplant organs themselves.

Ludo

Something doesn't really add up here. How come there will be an aircraft ready to roll in dublin airport so quickly after ye get the call in Dundalk. Is there a medical plane on 24 hours standby in Dublin airport with a crew waiting. If not then you will have plenty of time to make it there while staying close to the speed limit.

Edit: after reading the comment above about the process being 6 hours old by time he gets the call and plane ready and waiting...then why don't they call him earlier so he can meet the plane. Seems a stupid way to organise the whole thing.

Voodoomelon

Absurdum wrote: »

If time is that important, an air ambulance could be arranged to take the patient from here to either Dublin Airport or Casement Aerodrome.

The way the system is set up, its from the nearest major airport, in this case Dublin.

robtri

put it this way....

Dundalk to Airport 46 miles...

at 70mph = 39mins
at 80mph = 34 mins
at 90mph = 30 mins
at 100 mph = 27 mins....

you will save 12 mins... and if you get stopped for speeding and have to explain the situation... you will waste more than 12 mins....

you judge if its worth the 12 mins...

and just for the record if it was me.... i would be doing over the ton... seriously well over the ton.....

Tea 1000

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Its actually a very complicated process. Even after he gets the call, procedures and steps for the transplant have been active for over 6 hours. The plane is not a regular chartered flight, its a low flying medevac plane that will be ready and waiting. There is a reason why police escorts drive so fast in these situations, every minute counts. So sticking the cruise control to 120kph or 140kph doesn't cut it, its about going as fast as possible where the road and conditions allow.

OK, I'm ignorant to this situation to be honest. I thought the fact that you said he's living a fairly normal life etc meant that you'd be bringing him and he'd be flying over on a scheduled flight. My bad.
I see now that there'll be a plane ready etc, but surely they could give ye enough time to get from where ye are while they are finalising the pre-flight checks etc so that you wouldn't need to risk your life?
In any case, go as quick as you need to, pending on the conditions you're faced with at the time, but remember getting him there 6 minutes later by being a little more cautious is a lot better than a 10 car pile up on the M1!

Voodoomelon

Ludo wrote: »

Something doesn't really add up here. How come there will be an aircraft ready to roll in dublin airport so quickly after ye get the call in Dundalk. Is there a medical plane on 24 hours standby in Dublin airport with a crew waiting. If not then you will have plenty of time to make it there while staying close to the speed limit.

Edit: after reading the comment above about the process being 6 hours old by time he gets the call and plane ready and waiting...then why don't they call him earlier so he can meet the plane. Seems a stupid way to organise the whole thing.

Its all down to the way it works, no doubt there are infinite reasons that neither you or me know about. But essentially patients have been flown over in the past, have been put on the table, shaved and ready to go, and wake up a while later and no operation has taken place due to a variety of reasons.

So there must be numerous checks and compatibility confirmations before the patient is actually called. Before they are called, everything must run like clockwork under the assumption that the patient will be called, which would explain why they plane etc would be ready to go.

Voodoomelon

robtri wrote: »

put it this way....

Dundalk to Airport 46 miles...

at 70mph = 39mins
at 80mph = 34 mins
at 90mph = 30 mins
at 100 mph = 27 mins....

you will save 12 mins... and if you get stopped for speeding and have to explain the situation... you will waste more than 12 mins....

you judge if its worth the 12 mins...

and just for the record if it was me.... i would be doing over the ton... seriously well over the ton.....

Well put. But you never know what that 12 minutes might prevent you from encountering, heavy traffic, queues at the airport etc. Logic prevails in the end, theres no point exceeding 160kph. Ive been up there before and it feels like 120kph in an E38.

peasant

Sorry, but this playing the superhero notion, propelling your sick friend down the motorway at lifesaving speeds of whatever mph is quite frankly bollox, IMO.

Not when there are other ways available.

The cops aren't doing this for the first time, the procedures are in place for escorting ambulances ...so set up a procedure with your local cop shop for the eventuality. Get the hospital to ring you AND the gardai, meet at a pre-arranged point, waft down the motorway with an escort, jump all queues and traffic jams ...win.

EDIT ..coming to think of it ...you mightn't even be the driver. Depending on when it happens, someone else might have to do the driving ...different vehicle, less experienced driver.

In that case it would be even better to have a pre-arranged meeting place with the guards and everything setup upfront.

Big Nasty

Tea 1000 wrote: »

OK, I'm ignorant to this situation to be honest. I thought the fact that you said he's living a fairly normal life etc meant that you'd be bringing him and he'd be flying over on a scheduled flight. My bad.
I see now that there'll be a plane ready etc, but surely they could give ye enough time to get from where ye are while they are finalising the pre-flight checks etc so that you wouldn't need to risk your life?
In any case, go as quick as you need to, pending on the conditions you're faced with at the time, but remember getting him there 6 minutes later by being a little more cautious is a lot better than a 10 car pile up on the M1!

Better 10 minutes late than 'Dead On Time' but I don't think warp speed is what the OP was talking about (and either were you Terminator!) If you gotta do 130/140/160 or even 180kmph at times and it's relatively safe to do so go for it IMO! Even at 180kmph that is 112mph and at the right time of day or night is easily done relatively safely for short periods in a 7 by a compedent driver.

Del2005

Why can't they call him when they book the plane? I doubt there's a medivac plane on standby at Dublin airport. So if he gets the call at the same time as the plane you should have plenty of time without the need to speed. You'll also be pumped up when you get the call so you may take more risks then necessary.

GTE

It seems obvious that if you know that there is a good chance of a transplant happening in the next 12 months that you should inform the Garda NOW so you can discuss a plan of action for when the time comes.

It doesnt seem unreasonable to me that someone could call them up, you boot down the motorway and they come up to escort you. It also doesnt seem unreasonable that if the local station knows about your situation that they will fly out of the traps to get to you and do what needs to be done. However I do expect that they will insist on driving the patient up themselves rather then have someone who to be fair they cant trust to drive at the speeds being talked about.

Ok, you may be able to handle it but they wont know and I think thats why a good well worked discussion with the local garda will help either establish that trust or get a car to you sooner, EVEN I may add get you on to the tarmac on dublin airport since you are in a garda car and get you to the plane itself rather then have to go through any buildings. that could save good time also.

The biggest thing for me would be how you warn other motorists if you do have to go it alone for a stretch. Id imagine constant hazards and flashing your lights at a constant rate would help. Not flashing as if to seem like an ass but a steady rhythem. Drivers may even think you are a garda car.

Getting through the toll without blues would be an issue. I dont even want to think about a junction without good Garda support.

Personally, I wouldnt trust myself with the job of getting the patient down there. I cant guarantee things at that speed. I would be happy to leave it to the local police.

Voodoomelon

peasant wrote: »

Sorry, but this playing the superhero notion, propelling your sick friend down the motorway at lifesaving speeds of whatever mph is quite frankly bollox, IMO.

Not when there are other ways available.

The cops aren't doing this for the first time, the procedures are in place for escorting ambulances ...so set up a procedure with your local cop shop for the eventuality. Get the hospital to ring you AND the gardai, meet at a pre-arranged point, waft down the motorway with an escort, jump all queues and traffic jams ...win.

EDIT ..coming to think of it ...you mightn't even be the driver. Depending on when it happens, someone else might have to do the driving ...different vehicle, less experienced driver.

In that case it would be even better to have a pre-arranged meeting place with the guards and everything setup upfront.

Appreciate the comments, this has nothing to do with me, its about getting him there as soon as possible. Thats why i posted, to get thoughts on the situation, ill mention your suggestion to him.

GTE

Voodoomelon wrote: »

this has nothing to do with me, its about getting him there as soon as possible.

In that case I would have more faith in the Garda car on its own then a Garda car escorting you or someone else in doing that.

Cookie_Monster

exactly what peasant said

Cheeble

You're taking him and his mother; you think your car is a "rocketship"; and you're asking people on an internet forum what do they think is a safe speed.

Sorry about your mate's misfortune, but if it were me, I'd probably refuse even to get into a car with you. I'd call a taxi.

Cheeble-eers

Voodoomelon

Cheeble wrote: »

You're taking him and his mother; you think your car is a "rocketship"; and you're asking people on an internet forum what do they think is a safe speed.

Sorry about your mate's misfortune, but if it were me, I'd probably refuse even to get into a car with you. I'd call a taxi.

Cheeble-eers

Read again, then bugger off.

GTE

Cheeble wrote: »

You're taking him and his mother; you think your car is a "rocketship"; and you're asking people on an internet forum what do they think is a safe speed.

Sorry about your mate's misfortune, but if it were me, I'd probably refuse even to get into a car with you. I'd call a taxi.

Cheeble-eers

Take a look at the sentence you quoted a word out of

Voodoomelon

Appreciate all the replies guys. Gardaí probably are the best thing to do in this matter, will sort something out. Thanks for the well wishes too.

John_Rambo

Make sure you have your donor cards in your wallets in case you crash.

peasant

To fine-tune the previous plan a bit more.

I know very little about the mechanics of this procedure, but I suspect that the patient himself is one of the last in the chain to know what is happening.

The medics have to be sure first that the organs are a perfect match, that they will be there on time, that the plane will be there, etc, pp and the patient only gets informed (and all hyped up, which probably doesn't do him much good) when they are as SURE as they can be that he will actually have the operation. (you mentioned something there about the chain being in motion for some six hours already)

Now, that being the case, I'm pretty sure that a procedure could be set up where the people in the UK ring Dundalk garda station somewhat prematurely, the gardai travel to your friends house in good time, park round the corner and pick him up the second the whole thing is "go" for definite.

In other words ...tweak the usual procedure in some way that allows for the fact that your friend is not in hospital, but has to be picked up out in the shticks somewhere. If they can get a plane to the airport on time, they must be able to arrange the same for the patient.

Dr Galen

i'm not a regualt poster here, so I'm not going to talk about the issue of speed or safe driving etc.

I have had experience though of driving at speed to get a medical emergency on the M1 and I had a Garda escort. I was in the bus lane on the Swords road, and was stopped, after a quick explanation from me, and a call to the hospital involved, the motorcyle Garda, offered to escort me. I'm not sure how he worked that out etc, but either way he did.

Despite the fact that he had the lights on and I had my hazards on, we still eneded up stuck behind several "drivers" pottering along in the outside lane of the M1. I also drive a half decent car, thats well able to handle the speed, and have done some advanced training, but tbh , we never got close to the speeds people are talking about here. We clipped along at about 150 for most of the way. It was when we got into a more built up area that it made a difference mate, but not by a huge amount.

My advice is the same as others here, have a chat with the local station. I think you'd be better off trying to organise something for the airport side of things, as I'd say that where you'll lose most time, instead of worrying about hitting unsustainable speeds on the motorway.

Best of luck to your mate.

Voodoomelon

peasant wrote: »

To fine-tune the previous plan a bit more.

I know very little about the mechanics of this procedure, but I suspect that the patient himself is one of the last in the chain to know what is happening.

The medics have to be sure first that the organs are a perfect match, that they will be there on time, that the plane will be there, etc, pp and the patient only gets informed (and all hyped up, which probably doesn't do him much good) when they are as SURE as they can be that he will actually have the operation. (you mentioned something there about the chain being in motion for some six hours already)

Now, that being the case, I'm pretty sure that a procedure could be set up where the people in the UK ring Dundalk garda station somewhat prematurely, the gardai travel to your friends house in good time, park round the corner and pick him up the second the whole thing is "go" for definite.

In other words ...tweak the usual procedure in some way that allows for the fact that your friend is not in hospital, but has to be picked up out in the shticks somewhere. If they can get a plane to the airport on time, they must be able to arrange the same for the patient.

I was thinking the very same thing.

He's actually just clarified some of the details, somewhat making this thread unnecessary. He too was under the impression that it was urgent, however it is not as urgent as thought. There is no rush if he is at home in Dundalk, regular speed will suffice. Urgency is required if he is elsewhere in the country.

So no speeding required on my part, however I may well end up bringing him down.

peasant

Well, after all that, I hope that this really happens, that it happens safely and that your friend gets well again.

Voodoomelon

Many thanks, theres a very good chance it will. Life changing stuff, i'm delighted for him.

JJJJNR

Hey nice of you to volunteer, hope everything goes well.

GTE

The fact its less urgent is a good sign! Things are more relaxed.

Best of luck to him anyway. Maybe keep this thread in your bookmarks incase it comes up again.

CharlieCroker

I'm a serving Garda and you're origional plan was MADNESS so thank god it's not needed.
You say it's urgent if he's anywhere else in the country. My suggestion would be to organise a meeting with your local Superintendent and go along with your friend. Explain the situation to him/her and basically organise it so that when the call does come, a car (pref a traffic car with a trained driver) can bring him to Dublin Airport when the happy day comes. Ask him to make the Sgt in charge aware of the situation and have a point of contact in the station. At least if your friend is in Cork or Galway etc, he can ring the point of contact in your local station who can arrange for an escort to Dublin Airport.

Fishtits

I'm speed reading here so forgive me if I've missed something. I read the OP's post, the few that followed and then Charlie's.

First off, the GS are not going to facilitate an unknown tearing down the M1.

Charlie's advice should be followed IMHO.

I have first hand experience of driving a vehicle, in a hurry and being escorted by the GS, its not for the feint hearted...

(anyone else ever yumped a truck over Rathmines bridge at 50mph...?)

CharlieCroker

One thing that I forgot to mention. A Garda vehicle, upon arriving at Dublin Airport is going to be allowed to drive straight onto the ramp to the waiting aircraft whereas your private vehicle won't, causing more delay.

I.S.T.

I think it would be best to wait for the Garda escort. The time you spend waiting for them will more than be made up for by getting you through any traffic jams and through all the red traffic lights. Plus you won't have to worry about any speeding fines.

Henry Ford III

Best wishes to the patient, but I'd be concerned about the high speed driving stuff.

A relation of mine owned a limo, and the co. he was aligned to had the contract with a local hospital.

When patients donated organs he was occaisionally asked drive the transplant team and their precious cargo to the airport with a Garda escort at very high speeds. The cops had no insurance for organ transport apparently.