Being clamped when actually legally parked

VictoriaC

Hi, I am using the NCPS car park in Sandyford (old Atlantic Shop) and using the cashless system - which is great (a) saves you time (b) saves you money! €12 vs €20 at the luas car park.
I pay thru my mobile - enter c/card details and then get a text to say I can park until a certain date (i choose the week). your car plate registration number is recorded on their system and you don't get clamped.
I've been using this since January and its been going great UNTIL friday, when I returned to my car finding it being clamped! I approached the clamper, who got a fright and said he never heard of paying for parking on credit card and I'm being clamped because I dont have a ticket on display. After explaining the cashless system to him - he said it must be a new thing and promptly left the car park - after having clamped at least 5/6 other cars - who were probably legally parked like myself. I didn't get his details - which I should have done - but I was too shocked. 1 second later and it would have cost me 120Euro!
I phoned NCPS this morning to be informed that its impossible to be clamped when you have received a text message confirmation - OBVIOUSLY ITS NOT IMPOSSIBLE.... I am worried of using the system again....

Cookie_Monster

You now have a phone call from NCPS confirming that you are ok to do it. even if you don't get clamped you have that backup from them. Try get it in writing from them also.

Max Power1

get it in writing and put in in your windscreen if you are parking there again!

VictoriaC

Thanks - I've made up my own little notice to display.

If you get clamped you have to pay the release fee no matter whose fault it is! you can claim it back I presume if you are in the right - but I dont imagine that to be easy!

fenris

If your car has been illegally clamped can you legally remove the clamp as it is interfering with your car?

VictoriaC

fenris wrote: »

If your car has been illegally clamped can you legally remove the clamp as it is interfering with your car?

i dont think you can remove a clamp yourself - you need all the right tools and the key for the lock...

Ste.phen

If you can get it off without damaging it you're in the clear, but damage it and they'll sue to recover the cost of a clamp + the cost of suing you (AFAIK), (or go for a criminal damage complaint to the guards)

neilthefunkeone

VictoriaC wrote: »

i dont think you can remove a clamp yourself - you need all the right tools and the key for the lock...

I got the key...

Victor

Are you certain he was an NCPS clamper?

neilthefunkeone wrote: »

I got the key...

And that is likely to get you into a lot of trouble, whether you feel justified or not.

VictoriaC

Victor wrote: »

Are you certain he was an NCPS clamper?

I dont know what company he worked for - if he was NCPS he would have known how the system worked. Think he was taking his chances as he probably needed his commission for the week!!!! (probably clamps for other companies in the area) either way - its not acceptable for him to clamp at will.....

Davy

Presumably their is a sing up about the cashless parking, or how do people know about it? If they sign is in place, the clamper's should be made aware of it, take a picture of it and send it to them to inform the drivers

foggy_lad

He could be a chancer clamping legally parked cars in car parks and putting his own sticker with his mobile number on your car so you pay him to remove the clamp and when you contact the real parking crowd for your refund they know nothing of your car being clamped?

Ste.phen

foggy_lad's suggestion seems possible if unlikely, give NCPS a call and try to find out WTF happened, lest someone else get screwed: 0818 555 000

fenris

Victor wrote: »

And that is likely to get you into a lot of trouble, whether you feel justified or not.

I just don't get why removing an illegally placed clamp would get you in trouble, putting the clamp on in the first place is an act of mischief/vandalism, the removal of the clamp incurs a cost in terms of time lost, having to phone the clamper and get his permission to move freely following his illegal act of attempted extortion doesn't sound right.

corktina

I agree with fenris, its as much your right to remove a non-official clamp (ie on private property) as it theirs to clamp you.

Max Power1

fenris wrote: »

I just don't get why removing an illegally placed clamp would get you in trouble, putting the clamp on in the first place is an act of mischief/vandalism, the removal of the clamp incurs a cost in terms of time lost, having to phone the clamper and get his permission to move freely following his illegal act of attempted extortion doesn't sound right.

Id like to see it tried in court tbh. Clampers operate in a grey area (at best) of the law as it is, dont think theyd take someone to court for criminal damage for removing an illegally placed clamp.

Victor

Whatever about removing the clamp, damaging the clamp is criminal damage.

corktina

i think you'd be OK if you gave them notice that you intended to remove their clamp...

Tester46

Victor wrote: »

Whatever about removing the clamp, damaging the clamp is criminal damage.

I've heard a few people say that, but why is it criminal damage? Does anyone know what the real legal position is?

For example, if you woke up in the morning and someone had placed some kind of door-clamp on your front door without justification, would it be criminal damage if you removed it and destroyed it in the process? I think not.

Similarly, if the clamp is unjustifiably placed on your car, why should removing it be unlawful? If it is designed in such a way that the only way to remove it is to damage it, then surely that is the problem of the operator who placed it on your car?

I'd love to know what the true legal position of clampers is in circumstances when they have "accidentally" clamped someone who should not have been clamped (on private property, not in a council-operated car park).

neilthefunkeone

Victor wrote: »

Whatever about removing the clamp, damaging the clamp is criminal damage.

Cut padlock.. Buy new padlock.. 10 euro.. Drop clamp back to them.. No damage.. How can they prove that the padlock you returned to them is thee one they put on your car??

Victor

VictoriaC, are you meant to have a tag for the phone payment? Or is it registration number only?

Tester46 wrote: »

For example, if you woke up in the morning and someone had placed some kind of door-clamp on your front door without justification, would it be criminal damage if you removed it and destroyed it in the process? I think not.

The difference being that its on my property and my front door / car isn't trespassing on someone else's property. this is the first case I've heard of of actual improper clamping (but it wasn't actually carried out).

Viper_JB

neilthefunkeone wrote: »

Cut padlock.. Buy new padlock.. 10 euro.. Drop clamp back to them.. No damage.. How can they prove that the padlock you returned to them is thee one they put on your car??

When the old key doesn't fit anymore, in saying that I 100% agree I'd probably just throw the clamp at the side of the road and give them a call letting them know where it is, pure scummy thing to do I'd be very pissed off to have one of these two bit morons go anywhere near my car.

markpb

Tester46 wrote: »

For example, if you woke up in the morning and someone had placed some kind of door-clamp on your front door without justification, would it be criminal damage if you removed it and destroyed it in the process? I think not.

The difference is that it's your door on your property. When you park somewhere else, you park on *their* property.

Tester46

Victor wrote: »

The difference being that its on my property and my front door / car isn't trespassing on someone else's property. this is the first case I've heard of of actual improper clamping (but it wasn't actually carried out).

Yes, I appreciate that. My first post was probably a bit facetious. But, when you are invited on to someone else's property (as in a car park scenario), there must be some notice given of the terms on which you may enter that property. For example, it is not open to the car park owner to simply set your car on fire unless there is a clear notice given to you that your car will be set on fire if you enter the premises (and probably not even then).

So, in circumstances where a paying customer drives into a car park, pays for his parking by mobile phone in accordance with the owner's requirements, but the owner's agents (the clampers) accidentally or erroneously place a clamp on the car which is legitimately parked, who says it is criminal damage to remove it and damage it in the process? Do car parks generally have clear notices displayed anywhere advising customers that by parking there they are agreeing to possibly being unjustly clamped despite legitimately paying the car park fee?

I agree the clampers may try to sue you for the cost of the damage (i.e. a civil case), but in that case you would have a counter-argument that they had unjustly clamped you.

corktina

and the only damage done would be to a padlock.I cant see the courts entertaining such a claim, especially if you make it clear you are happy to pay for the lock,.

meathstevie

Victor wrote: »

Whatever about removing the clamp, damaging the clamp is criminal damage.

I'd like to see a test case. How can removing an unlawfully placed clamp which is an unlawful means of preventing you enjoying the use of your property be criminal damage ? The offence of tampering with a motorvehicle springs to mind if a clamp is unlawfully placed.

Ham'nd'egger

meathstevie wrote: »

I'd like to see a test case. How can removing an unlawfully placed clamp which is an unlawful means of preventing you enjoying the use of your property be criminal damage ? The offence of tampering with a motorvehicle springs to mind if a clamp is unlawfully placed.

The breaking of the clamp is totally incidental and different to the reason the clamp is on the car; that's the point Victor is making. I'd not blame somebody for removing a car that is illegally clamped but it's still damaging somebody's clamp and padlock regardless of why it's on the car.

Victor

meathstevie wrote: »

I'd like to see a test case. How can removing an unlawfully placed clamp which is an unlawful means of preventing you enjoying the use of your property be criminal damage ?

But you are unlawfully interfering with the property owner's use of their property. You can't use the fact that you started the problem to resolve it in favour.

billybigunz

Victor wrote: »

Whatever about removing the clamp, damaging the clamp is criminal damage.

Nope. One case went to court for criminal damage, thrown out straight away and the judge reckoned the defendant had a case for damage to his wheel.

markpb

billybigunz wrote: »

Nope. One case went to court for criminal damage, thrown out straight away and the judge reckoned the defendant had a case for damage to his wheel.

I tried to find any court cases involving NCPS or APCOA on courts.ie and couldn't find anything. Maybe someone else will have more luck? In any event, I guess that judge was a district court judge so IIRC it isn't a court of record so other judges could rule the other way.

billybigunz

markpb wrote: »

I tried to find any court cases involving NCPS or APCOA on courts.ie and couldn't find anything. Maybe someone else will have more luck? In any event, I guess that judge was a district court judge so IIRC it isn't a court of record so other judges could rule the other way.

This is true.

They were only allowed take a criminal case because the guy who owned the clamping company was an ex Garda. In other circumstances the Gardai would not persue a criminal case for somebody that destroys a private clamp if it is attached to their car.

Victor

billybigunz wrote: »

Nope. One case went to court for criminal damage, thrown out straight away and the judge reckoned the defendant had a case for damage to his wheel.

Link?

billybigunz

Victor wrote: »

Link?

A link to what?

Ste.phen

billybigunz wrote: »

A link to what?

the courts.ie records of the case in question

billybigunz

Ste.phen wrote: »

the courts.ie records of the case in question

There is none.

Victor

Or a newspaper article?

markpb

billybigunz wrote: »

There is none.

There's no record of the court case? I won't doubt your original post but I find it very odd that the DPP and judicial system would allow a criminal case to be taken because one director in a company was a retired guard. I think there's an element of Chinese whispers going on somewhere (but obviously I could be wrong).

billybigunz

It's a low level case taken in the district court. Use your heads.

Tayto2000

billybigunz wrote: »

It's a low level case taken in the district court. Use your heads.

We are, but so far it looks more like you just made it up. There's records kept of district cases, so any bit of actual information would allow the record of this case to be found. Which court was it? What judge? What date? You said that you know details of the ownership of the company and their links with the gardai, the other bits should be easy to remember surely.

billybigunz

You forgot one crucial factor.

I couldn't give a **** whether some div on a forum believes me or not. Take my word for it or don't. I'm not going to go around gathering evidence for you.

Ham'nd'egger

billybigunz wrote: »

You forgot one crucial factor.I couldn't give a **** whether some div on a forum believes me or not.

We would all love to believe you but if you say something like that then you do need to back it up if it's a new or odd fact/happening; that's going to happen if you throw a few urban myths into the debate.

billybigunz wrote: »

Take my word for it or don't.

I choose "don't":D

foggy_lad

there is scotland of course where this kind of clamping is illegal if i am not mistaken?

jhegarty

Victor wrote: »

The difference being that its on my property and my front door / car isn't trespassing on someone else's property. this is the first case I've heard of of actual improper clamping (but it wasn't actually carried out).

But the car was legally and properly parked.

How was there a trespass ?

Del2005

You could always go for a cup of tea, then if a good Samaritan comes along and sees that you where unjustly clamped they could remove it for you.

Victor

billybigunz wrote: »

You forgot one crucial factor.

I couldn't give a **** whether some div on a forum believes me or not. Take my word for it or don't. I'm not going to go around gathering evidence for you.

Fair enough, banned for the week.

billybigunz

Well done.

Victor

jhegarty wrote: »

But the car was legally and properly parked.

How was there a trespass ?

Sure, I agree VictoriaC's case would appear to be a situation of improper (not quite clamping), even the clamper seem to have agreed.

ballsymchugh

it is illegal in scotland alright to use clamps in private car parks and estates.

of course, there's always this option

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOuVhMz4WFw

markpb

jhegarty wrote: »

But the car was legally and properly parked. How was there a trespass ?

I'm only guessing but the law says that you may be allowed onto private property "by license" of the owner. The license may include obeying instructions which are clearly sign-posted. Failure to abide by the license could mean you are trespassing.

limklad

VictoriaC wrote: »

Hi, I am using the NCPS car park in Sandyford (old Atlantic Shop) and using the cashless system - which is great (a) saves you time (b) saves you money! €12 vs €20 at the luas car park.
I pay thru my mobile - enter c/card details and then get a text to say I can park until a certain date (i choose the week). your car plate registration number is recorded on their system and you don't get clamped.
I've been using this since January and its been going great UNTIL friday, when I returned to my car finding it being clamped! I approached the clamper, who got a fright and said he never heard of paying for parking on credit card and I'm being clamped because I dont have a ticket on display. After explaining the cashless system to him - he said it must be a new thing and promptly left the car park - after having clamped at least 5/6 other cars - who were probably legally parked like myself. I didn't get his details - which I should have done - but I was too shocked. 1 second later and it would have cost me 120Euro!
I phoned NCPS this morning to be informed that its impossible to be clamped when you have received a text message confirmation - OBVIOUSLY ITS NOT IMPOSSIBLE.... I am worried of using the system again....

Once you have written proof you paid, then sue the company for lost of use for your own vehicle and taken you personal property hostage and personal distress.
It about time people stand up against these rouge companies.

GiddyUp86

neilthefunkeone wrote: »

Cut padlock.. Buy new padlock.. 10 euro.. Drop clamp back to them.. No damage.. How can they prove that the padlock you returned to them is thee one they put on your car??

They dont use regular padlocks that you just buy in shops. To buy one of these alone would cost over 80 euro.