.308

badshot

guys want to buy a .308 for some informal target shooting
& hunting.
any helpful suggestions.
like the look of the savage 12fvss

daithi55

badshot wrote: »

guys want to buy a .308 for some informal target shooting
& hunting.
any helpful suggestions.
like the look of the savage 12fvss

.308 i think its only good for deer way to much overkill for foxes and very expensive for target shooting unless your hand loading

id go .223 perfect for foxes 12 euro a box for American eagle 50 grain and good for target shooting

and id go the savage hunter series 11 fcns in .223 it has accutrigger and accustock but no stainless steel barrel

the 12fvss has the stainless steel barrel but no accustock both models also come in .223

Hartman

http://www.snipercentral.com/remspsv.htm

you'll pick up one of these for between 8-900 quid

When your skill outgrows the weapon the skys the limit on upgrades

Hartman

American eagle is the worst lead you could ever send down a barrel, buy cheap buy twice. Why would you use ammo for target shooting that doesnt give tight groups... never understood that rationale.

daithi55 wrote: »

.308 i think its only good for deer way to much overkill for foxes and very expensive for target shooting unless your hand loading

id go .223 perfect for foxes 12 euro a box for American eagle 50 grain and good for target shooting

and id go the savage hunter series 11 fcns in .223 it has accutrigger and accustock but no stainless steel barrel

the 12fvss has the stainless steel barrel but no accustock both models also come in .223

daithi55

Hartman wrote: »

American eagle is the worst lead you could ever send down a barrel, buy cheap buy twice. Why would you use ammo for target shooting that doesnt give tight groups... never understood that rationale.

that would explain why loads of people use it target shooting so
i used it in my .223 savage when i had it was doing thumb nail groups at 100 yards
dont forget different ammo suits different guns i fired 5 different brands from it when i bought it new from the free box for 12 euro to remingtons, sako hornady i think and lille and bennet i think they were called

Hartman

People use it because its dirt cheap and they can shoot 100 or 200 rounds of it down in midland without it costing them a fortune, fine if your working your techniques but useless for anything else.

daithi55 wrote: »

that would explain why loads of people use it target shooting so
i used it in my .223 savage when i had it was doing thumb nail groups at 100 yards
dont forget different ammo suits different guns i fired 5 different brands from it when i bought it new from the free box for 12 euro to remingtons, sako hornady i think and lille and bennet i think they were called

poulo6.5

Hartman wrote: »

http://www.snipercentral.com/remspsv.htm

you'll pick up one of these for between 8-900 quid

When your skill outgrows the weapon the skys the limit on upgrades

that would be a good all-rounder in .243 imo.


as to 308 being to expensive i dont think so, i am looking to buy a .308 my self and one of my reasons i'm changing is because of the huge range of rounds available for .308 from very cheap to relatively expensive. not to mention the competitions that you can enter. and as far as a fox is concerned i have yet to meet one that complained about the round that just killed him .


anyway back to op. i would suggest anything from tika would be good.
they are very accurate out of the box. if its light you want then they have the light hunter, there are also some very nice varmint rifles worth a look at.

like i said i'm looking at the moment to and i have had all of these rifles in my hand and the action is very smooth and they have a good feel to them.

clivej

Why use the American Eagle because it will shoot touching groups from my 223 and nearly as good from the 308

But the Remington just don't go there.....................

tomcat220t

Ive uesed and seen american eagle ammo and are cheap for a good reason,imo .If a rifle is lucky to get them to group at 100 yard there would would be a lot less getting results at 200 yards.Some people argue that the .223 gives the options for cheap shooting but that depends on the persons standards.

rowa

badshot wrote: »

guys want to buy a .308 for some informal target shooting
& hunting.
any helpful suggestions.
like the look of the savage 12fvss

if you could put up with the extra weight why not go for the savage f/tr , cracking rifle and if i was in the market for a rifle thats what i'd go for .

Hartman

clivej wrote: »

Why use the American Eagle because it will shoot touching groups from my 223 and nearly as good from the 308

But the Remington just don't go there.....................

while there are better out of the box rifles than the remington its top of its class for the price, youll pay twice that for a decent tikka

clivej

Hartman wrote: »

while there are better out of the box rifles than the remington its top of its class for the price, youll pay twice that for a decent tikka

I was refering to remington ammo.

clivej

223 or 308 you won't go worng with a Tikka varmint.
Only good reports about them

badshot

guys sorry should have said i already own .243
steyr ssg.
fancy having a go at 6-800 yards eventually

Hartman

badshot wrote: »

guys sorry should have said i already own .243
steyr ssg.
fancy having a go at 6-800 yards eventually

Then go for the remy because when you get the bug (and you will) you will want to be competitive and you can add a nice match barrel to the remy and a mcmillan stock and your back in the game.

jwshooter

weapon . a object to kill or get the upper hand on a opponent .


you would have to hate yourself to buy a new remmie . get a tikka or sako.

clivej

Hartman wrote: »

Then go for the remy because when you get the bug (and you will) you will want to be competitive and you can add a nice match barrel to the remy and a mcmillan stock and your back in the game.

And then you won't have a Remy but something getting near to a Tikka or Sako

Read all the forums on the Reny's first thing you have to do is change the trigger.

It wasn't me!

I'd also love to know where you can buy a Remington 700 for 500 squids. The Tikka is a far nicer built gun. If you find a Sako, jump on it. They're superb.

Hartman

clivej wrote: »

And then you won't have a Remy but something getting near to a Tikka or Sako

Read all the forums on the Reny's first thing you have to do is change the trigger.

Clive if you read the link I posted you would see the new SPS comes with the new 'remington X mark pro' trigger.

A rebarrelled mcmillan bedded stock rem 700 would be far superior to any tikka or sako at distances over 600 yards... even the TRG

Hartman

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I'd also love to know where you can buy a Remington 700 for 500 squids. The Tikka is a far nicer built gun. If you find a Sako, jump on it. They're superb.

who posted that price?

patsat

while there are better out of the box rifles than the remington its top of its class for the price, youll pay twice that for a decent tikka

you would get a brand new tikka lite for 1000 euro. half of that would be 500!! maybe thats where he got it from.

Tikka would be worth it tho when you are spending big money on a gun your better off getting the best.

Hartman

patsat wrote: »

you would get a brand new tikka lite for 1000 euro. half of that would be 500!! maybe thats where he got it from.

Tikka would be worth it tho when you are spending big money on a gun your better off getting the best.

which would be no better than the remy, youd need to go a little higher up the scale in a tikka which would be the 1400-1500 mark. That being said best of luck getting a brand new Tikka in this country...

tomcat220t

Hartman wrote: »

Clive if you read the link I posted you would see the new SPS comes with the new 'remington X mark pro' trigger.

A rebarrelled mcmillan bedded stock rem 700 would be far superior to any tikka or sako at distances over 600 yards... even the TRG

I baught a VLS remmy that was shooting half inch at 140 yards with factory ammo and i got it rebarreled and bedded a few months ago and made a big differnce to it .Custom barrel and othe work really pays off, if it done right .Also have a sako 75 .223 which is a fine rifle but is not as accurate as the remmy with some custom work .

dwighet

clivej wrote: »

And then you won't have a Remy but something getting near to a Tikka or Sako

Read all the forums on the Reny's first thing you have to do is change the trigger.

Better than a tikka or Sako you mean;);) much better:D

It wasn't me!

Hartman wrote: »

Clive if you read the link I posted you would see the new SPS comes with the new 'remington X mark pro' trigger.

A rebarrelled mcmillan bedded stock rem 700 would be far superior to any tikka or sako at distances over 600 yards... even the TRG

So what you're saying is heavily customised rifle (of any sort) beats bog standard factory rifle? What a surprise! Seriously, you're just not comparing like with like.

Hartman wrote: »

who posted that price?

A new Tikka will outshoot just about any new Remington, out of the box. That's been my experience and that of anyone else I've spoken to. It's not a constant, but you find two rifles fresh out of the box and the Tikka will almost certainly shoot better, and is nicer built.

Hartman wrote: »

which would be no better than the remy, youd need to go a little higher up the scale in a tikka which would be the 1400-1500 mark. That being said best of luck getting a brand new Tikka in this country...

Nah, the Tikka is a nicer bit of kit in terms of handling and fit and finish, and will likely outshoot the Remington. And as to new Tikkas, it's not exactly a problem. Most places stock new Tikkas, so don't know where you're going with that.

Your advice is hinging on the idea that a custom rifle is better than a factory rifle, which is fairly likely going to be spot on, but if I wanted a car to run to the shops, and someone suggested a track car, because it's faster, it'd be pretty daft, wouldn't it? I mean, you've just expressed a preference for the Remington action, since your first step was to re-barrel it and bed it in a different stock. So why recommend the Remington when all you want is the action? If I stick the same barrel and stock on a Sako action, it'll shoot just as well.

Hartman

IWM If you actually understood what the guy wants to do instead of trying to pick apart my posts maybe you would actually see what im saying makes sense.. For starters I wouldn't call a re-barrelled remington a 'a heavily customised rifle' that smacks a little of 'souped of cars' printed on the front of the herald.

He wants to try long range target shooting, hence buy a reasonably priced 'rifle' that will do the job which is easily upgradible as his skillset improves.

The Remington is ideal for this, the upgrades for other makes are either hard to get in this country or it is difficult to find a riflesmith that will do the necessary work involved.

You buy a remy for 800 quid, have a bit of fun and decide you want to keep it. You can add a match barrel and get any choice of stock you want, for around 1500 quid, for less than 2500 grand you have a deadly accurate .308 as accurate as your ability and ammunition allows it to be.

Go and buy a Tikka for 1500 quid, when you are no longer competitive you re-barrel and change stock if you can find one you want that actually fits... then you've spent 3000 grand on a rifle thats no better than the remy.. Along with the hardship of sourcing upgraded parts.

Now go through that process with a TRG your looking at 4-5000 grand :rolleyes:

Remington actions are the most popular with long range shooters as they are easy to work on for Riflesmiths and reliable as hell. You could spend thousands on an action alone but that is another story.

I am not knocking tikka or sako actions as ive owned both types of 'rifle'. Hence why im posting an informed opinion not relying on 'something ive heard' to cover some of it.


Hope this helps

Hartman

It wasn't me!

To be honest, if he's looking for a target rifle and a hunting rifle in one gun, I've talked before about how that doesn't really work out. In terms of an accurate .308, we should have just recommended he buy the Savage and move on with everything. The Savage will likely be a stupidly good shooter, for reasonable money, and with a factory barrel to match most custom jobs. It also has a superb trigger right out of the box. For seriously competitive accuracy from the factory, I'd take the Savage.

clivej

^^^^^^^^^^ what he says ^^^^^^^^^

end of story

Cass

rowa wrote: »

if you could put up with the extra weight why not go for the savage f/tr , cracking rifle and if i was in the market for a rifle thats what i'd go for .

+1 on the Savage FTR but for hunting its completely impractical. With only a scope and bipod you're looking at nearly 16.5-17 pound weight. A heavy carry.

A Savage Model 10 FP or Model 12 FVSS , Tikka T3 Varmint or the Styer Elite would all be good choices.

jwshooter

Hartman wrote: »

which would be no better than the remy, youd need to go a little higher up the scale in a tikka which would be the 1400-1500 mark. That being said best of luck getting a brand new Tikka in this country...

lad you know noting about rifles , a tikka t3 will set you back €950 and will shot tiny thats tiny groups out of the box.

a remmie will cost as much ,with a crap stock a worse trigger ,a bolt that has more rattle in it that a 40 year old morris minor ,crap mag, worse floor plate.and will shoot inch plus groups,more lift than a F16 when you do shoot it.
a finish that was out of date 30 years ago .

granted ,give john greene 1,000 + bucks and he will make it shoot .there is a reason remmies are rebuilt ,there sxxt .
another thing i totaly hate about remmies ,you cant lock the bolt .walking along the bolt comes loose
,round drops out FFS:mad: .o ya you can but a after market bit to stop that to.
iv had two remmies over the years .crude firearms. never again.

you go look for a sako/tikka action you will have a job getting one .look for a remmie a different matter.

Hartman

jwshooter wrote: »

lad you know noting about rifles , a tikka t3 will set you back €950 and will shot tiny thats tiny groups out of the box.

a remmie will cost as much ,with a crap stock a worse trigger ,a bolt that has more rattle in it that a 40 year old morris minor ,crap mag, worse floor plate.and will shoot inch plus groups,more lift than a F16 when you do shoot it.
a finish that was out of date 30 years ago .

granted ,give john greene 1,000 + bucks and he will make it shoot .there is a reason remmies are rebuilt ,there sxxt .
another thing i totaly hate about remmies ,you cant lock the bolt .walking along the bolt comes loose
,round drops out FFS:mad: .o ya you can but a after market bit to stop that to.
iv had two remmies over the years .crude firearms. never again.

you go look for a sako/tikka action you will have a job getting one .look for a remmie a different matter.

you havent picked up a new remington in a while then..:rolleyes:

your dead right they are the biggest piece of **** you could buy, after all marine scout snipers use them...

Sparks

Feck's sake lads, keep it civil, would you?
(Hartman, don't the marines use the M24?)

Rovi

Sparks wrote: »

(Hartman, don't the marines use the M24?)

The M24 IS a Remington 700

Sparks

Only in the same way that an axe that's had two new heads and three new handles is the original axe! The marines have their gunsmiths rebuild their rifles fairly extensively, have since vietnam if Hathcock is any authority on marine snipers Besides, they're getting rid of the M24 for some wierd rebuild of an M16 variant this month.

Hartman

Sparks wrote: »

Feck's sake lads, keep it civil, would you?
(Hartman, don't the marines use the M24?)

No Sparks, thats the Army.

The Marine corps use the m40 A5 (also a remy 700)

Sparks

Hm. So it's the army switching to that m16 rebuild?

Hartman

Sparks wrote: »

Hm. So it's the army switching to that m16 rebuild?

are you talking about this...



Its a Remington/Bushmaster ACR it was formerly the Magpul Masada which Remington/Bushmaster bought the rights to.

Sparks

No, it was Knight armaments (thank Discovery channel and Hasselhoff for that bit of trivia sticking in my head). The M110:

jwshooter

Hartman wrote: »

you havent picked up a new remington in a while then..:rolleyes:

your dead right they are the biggest piece of **** you could buy, after all marine scout snipers use them...

i was waiting for you to say that,

i have shot and handled the new one ,also a sxxp. once upon a time the usmc used remmies. do they not make there own actions/rifles.

i think the guy was looking for a rifle not a 6 month project.

if sako/tikka were american would the usmc started using winchesters and remmies, the hell the would.

jwshooter

Hartman wrote: »

are you talking about this...



Its a Remington/Bushmaster ACR it was formerly the Magpul Masada which Remington/Bushmaster bought the rights to.

cant see the op getting a licence for them

Hartman

jwshooter wrote: »

i was waiting for you to say that,

i have shot and handled the new one ,also a sxxp. once upon a time the usmc used remmies. do they not make there own actions/rifles.

i think the guy was looking for a rifle not a 6 month project.

if sako/tikka were american would the usmc started using winchesters and remmies, the hell the would.

Not only are you an expert riflesmith but you are also psychic...

Maybe you should apply for a Job with the DOD now that the deer season is over..

clivej

Quote
"Originally Posted by badshot
guys want to buy a .308 for some informal target shooting
& hunting.
any helpful suggestions.
like the look of the savage 12fvss"


And all the OP BadShot wanted was advice on getting a 308 for some target shooting.

How about giving BadShot just that?????

Sparks

This is all going a bit sideways allright. Let's just drop the military stuff and stick to the OP's request.

It wasn't me!

Okay, simplifying this right down to the bare bones, and based solely on my experiences.

The following will make good, accurate rifles right out of the box:
Savage
Tikka
Sako

Those will be good, right out of the box, no tweaking necessary, with good barrels and good triggers. The Savage is the least smooth action of them, but there's feck all really wrong with it either. It'll quite probably have the most accurate barrel. The triggers are great, but as far as I'm concerned the Sako 75 has the best factory trigger out there, and I'm a big fan of the Savage too.

The Savage will have the worst stock. Not that they're awful, but they're just not as good. This is true for the synthetic and wood varieties. However, if you want a laminate stock, the Savage will probably be the best one; they really know how to build a lovely laminate stock.

Pricewise the Sako will be the most expensive, though you'll trip over great second-hand examples for really nice money, and if you do, you'd be a fool not to take one. The Tikkas are probably the same price as the Savage for specs, and probably a bit cheaper on the lower spec end. However, if you were going for a varmint style build, they'd be much of a muchness. If you want to try the Tikka and the Sako side by side, I'd recommend Stakelums in Thurles as the people to talk to, not sure what they'd carry in Sako.

My own feeling is you can't combine a hunting rifle and a target rifle effectively; it just doesn't work out, so try and decide what you're going to do the most of and go from there and compromise on the other end. If you want a dedicated target rifle for not much money, I'd be looking at a Savage varmint build, like their LRPV, which I don't think is made in .308, unfortunately, but several of their other varmint builds are. For a hunting rifle, I'd get the Tikka Hunter. I have its Sako contemporary and it's a nice, fast handling, smooth gun, and should come in around a grand, while a Savage varminter will be a few hundred more. It sounds to me like you're looking at targets more than hunting for this gun, so if I'm right about that, my own counsel would be to look at guns like the Tikka and Savage varminters or their tactical versions and see what you like the feel of best and what you get the best price on. They'll both shoot tiny, tiny groups, so it's down to user preference. Good luck.

Grizzly 45

Just to finish off on the military thing..The AR platform is NOT replacing any sniper rifle,whic are bolt actions,and most likely will stay that way in the near future.The AR and M1a rifles are what are called Designated Marksman Rifles.
Simply put,take the guy who has the best shooting scores in the unit,and give him a souped up,stronger calibre semi auto rifle with a good scope that he knows and send him out again with the unit to deal with multiple threats at greater distances.
Designated Marksman and a sniper are two wholly different animals with two different functions.

Doubt that the US will switch to the ACR either in the near future.
Unless you are in some fancy SF unit that has its own budget and some leeway in individual weapons appropriation and evaulation.
There is just too much money and contracts tied up in producing the AR in its current shape and form.They just MIGHT get the gas piston upper upgrade.[Going back to the past,as Stoner designed the AR180 system 50 years ago to correct the Ar 15 fault of "crapping where it eats"]
Not to mind the Masada costs,if you could get one over three times the amount of one of your bolt actions ye are discussing here.There is a newer version in .308,BUT it has quick change barrel/calibre facilities,which will accept any .308 derivitive.So,308,243,etc etc.from one gun.Called The Magpul Massoud.

clivej

From what I have read one difference between a target and hunting rifle is the barrel length. For target shooting a barrel of 30 inches or more is needed to reach out past the magic 600m mark. The longer barrel will give you higher muzzel velocity's to keep the bullet super-sonic out at 1000m +.

Savage Model: 12 F/TR 30" barrel


Then for hunting you don't need the higher muzzel velocity's as the range for most shooting is way less than 300m. So a barrel of 16-22 inches is fine. And the short barrel in woodland stalking will be good.

For instance this RPA woodland stalker in 308 @16"
http://www.rpainternational.co.uk/woodland_stalker_rifle.asp

tomcat220t

Blaser LRS2 in .308 is a real fine shooter ,out of the box

badshot

guys thanks a million for all the info
really like the look of the magpul masada i
think thats what i'll go for
i'm pretty sure SCULLY will be able to source one:rolleyes::D

kakashka

Hey badshot,i'd suggest looking out for a used 700,should be very cheap and you can do as you like with it at some stage in the future if you wish,plus you may be able to test fire a SH gun,the older700 trigger is better and when adjusted properly is as good as any(tikka trigger is not the best IMO)also IMHO dont be fooled by a big long barrel,it wont give you anything extra unless you reload