Choice of rifle

sureshot

Well lads
I'm about to start shopping around for a rifle, hopefully for handy money. I'm used to shooting the brother in laws 223. fox hunting or even at targets but find it a bit of a handful.
I was thinking of a 22 but im unsure if it would be good enough to take down a fox. Could you recommend a good rifle for me so i dont look like a total novice when talking to a gun dealer.

jwshooter

a .22lr cz or .17hmr cz.
your not going to kill as many foxes as you might think.

its coming into the fox cubbing season i will not kill any from now on untill june and at that cubs .

buy a .22 and learn how to use a rifle in the field .

kay 9

Hornet is a well recognised fox calibre through the years and as you said in your post you have some prior experience with a 223. So a 22 hornet is lighter calibre centrefire so would be a good start and loads for fox. I myself have a 223 and love it, but lots of lads just get them as it's like a magic calibre anymore or smth but it's not . There is loads to chose from. 204 is a little diamond for fox. Flat shootin too, only con is availability of ammunition.

daithi55

yal get used to the .223 mate its the best all rounder for the foxes in my opinion hornets are dear enough for bullets

.243

kay 9 wrote: »

Hornet is a well recognised fox calibre through the years and as you said in your post you have some prior experience with a 223. So a 22 hornet is lighter calibre centrefire so would be a good start and loads for fox. I myself have a 223 and love it, but lots of lads just get them as it's like a magic calibre anymore or smth but it's not . There is loads to chose from. 204 is a little diamond for fox. Flat shootin too, only con is availability of ammunition.

the .223 is the way better choice than the hornet,there's alot more punch down range,will shoot further and cheaper on ammo (around 60 euro a box for hornets )

poulo6.5

sureshot wrote: »

Well lads
I'm about to start shopping around for a rifle, hopefully for handy money. I'm used to shooting the brother in laws 223. fox hunting or even at targets but find it a bit of a handful.
I was thinking of a 22 but im unsure if it would be good enough to take down a fox. Could you recommend a good rifle for me so i dont look like a total novice when talking to a gun dealer.

in that case i would stick to .223 or you will find the other smaller calibers lacking the performance you are used to. stay away from hornet its nither here nor there imo. goog luck with what ever you choose

johngalway

Why do you find the .223 a handful please? What issues are you having when you're using your brother in laws gun?

.22lr and .17HMR AREN'T dedicated fox calibres. I don't care who's shot what with what, they're just not. They DO have valuable uses, but they're not a dedicated fox calibre.

Buying a rifle is one thing, but you need to think of the cost of using it, plus the level of availability of ammo reasonably local to you. .223 has a wide variety of cheap to expensive ammo and most if not all dealers will stock it, simply because it's both popular and good for foxing.

greenpeter

223 is the job.
Had a 22wrm which i bought for foxes and couldn't wait to get rid of it,
so off i went to the gun dealers to a .17hmr which lads had my head filled with s**t that they were the job for foxes and they are good if you have tame foxes which walk to heel,
so back to the gun dealer again and i bought a 223 which i was very nervous about getting and it is the bees knees.
I only got mine a few months ago and am still getting use to it, was out yesterday shooting balloons at 200yrds and hope to get out next weekend to shoot some at 250yrds.
Just get the 223 and be done or you will end up like me BROKE buying guns.

clivej

sureshot wrote: »

Well lads
I'm about to start shopping around for a rifle, hopefully for handy money. I'm used to shooting the brother in laws 223. fox hunting or even at targets but find it a bit of a handful.
I was thinking of a 22 but im unsure if it would be good enough to take down a fox. Could you recommend a good rifle for me so i dont look like a total novice when talking to a gun dealer.

SureShot

The 22lr is a great gun for target/plinking shooting. Good for squirles, rabbits, crows etc. The max range I shoot mine is about 120 yards. Good points are CHEAP ammo €5 for 50 rounds, fun rifle, cheap when buying a scope for it.
BUT not the best for foxes at all. You will only be tormenting yourself if you think the 22lr will do that for you. Simple reason is there not enough power in the 22lr bullit or the range for a GOOD CLEAN kill.
Others will say it's OK but you will mame more than you will kill outright.

Next would be the 223. Great gun for foxes as it will give a clean kill out to 300yards (if you can get that good, plenty of practise at the range first)
Ammo is cheap at €12.50-€30 for 20 rounds and a good choice of types and weights. You can use it for vermin birds and rabbits as well.

Look at the rifles from CZ they do both the 22lr and 223 in many different styles and prices that won't hit the pocket to hard. Second-hand could be he way to go, check out the sales section here.
If you can afford it buy both and you will be set up to shoot for a very long time.

Check out for a dealer near you in the Wiki section
http://wiki.boards.ie/wiki/Gun_Dealers

cavan shooter

clivej wrote: »

SureShot

The 22lr is a great gun for target/plinking shooting. Good for squirles, rabbits, crows etc. The max range I shoot mine is about 120 yards. Good points are CHEAP ammo €5 for 50 rounds, fun rifle, cheap when buying a scope for it.
BUT not the best for foxes at all. You will only be tormenting yourself if you think the 22lr will do that for you. Simple reason is there not enough power in the 22lr bullit or the range for a GOOD CLEAN kill.
Others will say it's OK but you will mame more than you will kill outright.

Next would be the 223. Great gun for foxes as it will give a clean kill out to 300yards (if you can get that good, plrnty of practise at the range first)
Ammo is cheap at €12.50-€30 for 20 rounds and a good choice of types and weights. You can use it for vermin birds and rabbits as well.


You should also have a .22lr, thats the gun for practice and practice and practice
Look at the rifles from CZ they do both the 22lr and 223 in many different styles and prices that won't hit the pocket to hard. Second-hand could be he way to go, check out the sales section here.
If you can afford it buy both and you will be set up to shoot for a very long time.

Check out for a dealer near you in the Wiki section
http://wiki.boards.ie/wiki/Gun_Dealers

Ok I like the hornet.........and There are lots of second hand 22 hornets and I cant fault them, I use 35grain hornady at €23 for 25 or remmys 40 grain at €37 for 50. Its not like your plinking or target shooting 100 rounds a day. A box and a half will do you a year. A good friend of mine got rid of his .223, yes it was a dinger on foxes but he felt it was over powered for the country he shoots over, and when he shot premium hollow points the price for 20 was up around the €25 a box for 20. If your shooting at night you'll call them in close enough for proper id, at that range a hornet will do whats needed..

bunny shooter

+ 1 for the hornet. Excellent round.

tomcat220t

Buy a .22lr for your first rifle ,maybe a CZ ! Hours of cheap fun. If you want a centrefire rifle for foxes ,cheak out a .204 .IMO, better suited to the job, over the mighty .223 .

shanmoll308

Sureshot,

If you think a 223 and the likes are a handfull for you then get yourself a .17 HMR as it is flatter shooting, harder hitting than the .22lr and has very little recoil. As for someone like yourself starting out the .22lr can be a frustrating calibre in shooting rabbits and other vermin. As when zeroed at 75 yards you will have to learn to hold low at 50 yards and hold over at 100 yards. The .17 HMR zeroed at 50 yards is a hair high at 75 yards, bang on at 100 yards and only 2 inches low at 150 yards, so on a calm day, any shot taken from 50 to 135-140 yards all you will have to do is point and squeeze. But I would not use the .17 HMR for fox shooting as the lads have recommended there are better calibres for that.
Best of luck.

Shanmoll

Tackleberrywho

daithi55 wrote: »

yal get used to the .223 mate its the best all rounder for the foxes in my opinion hornets are dear enough for bullets

Once you get a good .223, good ammo and a good moderator you'll never want to use anything else

My set up
Remington VS SFII
ASE ULTRA Supressor
Nightforce scope 8-32x56
makes the bad shots look good, makes the good shots look great!;)

vixdname

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Once you get a good .223, good ammo and a good moderator you'll never want to use anything else

My set up
Remington VS SFII
ASE ULTRA Supressor
Nightforce scope 8-32x56
makes the bad shots look good, makes the good shots look great!;)

I think a new shooter whos considering taking up shooting wont really want to spend the type of cash you'd need to buy a set up like that, c'mon a nightforce scope etc etc for a newbie !!!
I use a remington 700 vs with an accuracy international chassis system stage 1.5 stock, nightforce 8-32x56 scope, but its big money.
The newbie should get a decent rem 700 but until theres plenty of practice under the belt should invest in a middle of the road scope etc. (Bushnell 5-15x50 elite 3200) as an example.
But the .223 round is deffo the most effective at long ranges and the round is very economical on the pocket aswell !!!

No6

If its your first rifle and you are on a budget you could consider a 22 magnum. Its a rimfire with a bit more poke than a 22lr, not a dedicated fox round so you do have to get them into 100yrds max but its cheap to run, can be used on rabits, crows as well as foxes. Its all very well being able to shot to 200+ yards at night but its a lot harder to be 100% sure that its a fox at that distance and when you are only starting off it might be safer to use a lower powered round for the first while, you can always change after a year or two. It also depends on where you are shooting, if you are in a area with huge fields then the 223 might be the right gun for that reason alone but around where I am there are very few large fields, most are quite small so even if you have the range of a 223 its usless most of the time!!!

moan 77

well sureshot,
i cant beleive the info posted on this, invest your money in a top class scope, cause if you cant see your target well there is no point in pulling the trigger, you wont find an all rounder gun ( a part from the 12 g shotgun) if your shooting foxes out to 150 yards the .223 or hornet will do, but anything past this the .223 is your only man. for under 150 yards you got to ask yourself whats the target mostly rabbits then there is many .22 you could look at or .17, but dont fool yourself if it's the big red lad he will hang out there around 150 to 250 yards unless your an expert caller, you'll get them stuiped first / second year foxes that will come in past 150 yards but they still take knocking.
CZ do a good price on all there model of center fire rifles, but please invest in a good scope i would say at least € 500 / 700 your whole set up should cost € 1000 / 1200 and your set to knock the red lad.
i dont stop all year round i would knock about 120 to 150 foxes per year i would say 75% by night and 95% 0f the whole lot out at 200 yards cause some twit has scared them once or twice and boy do they take knocking then.
best of luck with your purchase but think long and hard about what you want your tools to do.

ivanthehunter

Again what is so unbearable in relation to 223?

Other than this any 22wmr will kill foxes but its not the sporting choice. TBH its really a make do gun and if you bought one for Charlie you would end up doing your nut trying to get him in close enough for a pop.
All depends on the topography and hedge layout of your permission or own land, as other shooters here have right stated..

Ultimate theres no right and wrong when it comes to shooting foxes but as most shooters are really avid nature enthusiasts they are fearful (and rightly so) of low powered rifles being used beyond the effect kill range....

As far buying scopes- Try and get a look through as many types as possible decide what is best for your caliber and buy the best one that you can afford.
I made the mistake of buying loads of crap ones and in the end it cost a lot more:( but i still enjoyed playing with these optics. You will want illuminated reticule for sure.

Possible the recoil from the 17remmy 700's is lower but i don't know if you'd even notice it.... someone else might know!
Other than that its possible to reduce recoil be the addition of extra weight to the gun- Some Elephant guns defo had tones of lead in the butt to help tame the kick!!

regards ivanthebowhunter

Ps if i was forced to choose a dedicated fox gun that was easier to tame than a 223 I'd have to insist on a hornet (not knowing the pros of the 17remmy at this time)

bunny shooter

vixdname wrote: »

...............But the .223 round is deffo the most effective at long ranges and the round is very economical on the pocket aswell !!!

:eek: Really :rolleyes:

You haven't been shooting long I reckon :P

Effective ammo for a 223 starts at €25 + up to €36

I pay €36 for Swift and that will be better at long range (200 + yards) than a 223 ever will :P Or a .204 Ruger will kick the ****e out of a .223 at 300 Yards for €25 for 20 rounds :P

tomcat220t

The .204 hunting round in my experence is way better at long distance than the .223 hunting round .I have no problem picking up ammo for the .204 ruger in most shops and cost between 23-25 euro for 20 rounds .

Vegeta

At 12.50 for 20 rounds that will easily drop a fox at lamping distance I find it hard to see a more logical choice than the .223

Vegeta

tomcat220t wrote: »

The .204 hunting round in my experence is way better at long distance than the .223 hunting round .I have no problem picking up ammo for the .204 ruger in most shops and cost between 23-25 euro for 20 rounds .

What do you mean by way better? Does it make foxes extra dead Only messing I assume you mean better in terms off accuracy

Sounds like your hunting ammo is twice as expensive as .223 hunting ammo. So lets say that in the same conditions your .204 ammo is twice as accurate as cheap .223 ammo

You hold 0.5 moa and I can only achieve 1 moa.
At 100 yards you're off by approx 0.5" at worst, result = dead fox
At 100 yards the .223 is off approx 1" at worst, result = dead fox

At 200 yards you're off by approx 1" at worst, result = dead fox
At 200 yards the .223 is off approx 2" at worst, result = dead fox

At 300 yards you're off by approx 1.5" at worst, result = dead fox
At 300 yards the .223 is off approx 3" at worst, result = dead fox


Don't see the added expense being worth it tbh

clivej

This topic comes up a lot here and this thread is no exception.

So what to do..........well try counting up the number of the different calibres and see which one is favorite/recomended the most.

Then do a search here and again count up the results.

No guessing what it will be realy is there.

223 is the tops.

johngalway

The willy waving is as useful as tits on a bull in this thread. People generally reccommend what they use themself, myself included.

My reason to object to the rimfire calibres is that you have a distinct disadvantage because there is a much reduced margin for error in killing a fox. Rimfire calibres have much less energy than centrefire calibres so therefore rimfire calibres cause much less lethal damage, this is important especially when your aim isn't what it should be, for what ever reason.

---

No6 wrote: »

Its all very well being able to shot to 200+ yards at night but its a lot harder to be 100% sure that its a fox at that distance and when you are only starting off it might be safer to use a lower powered round for the first while

.223 was my first rifle, I started out with self imposed limitations. Crawl before I can walk, walk before I can run. So I didn't shoot over 100 yards for a while, then when I felt comfortable with that range I wouldn't pass 150 yards until I felt comfortable with that, and so on. All the time plinking away at different targets at different ranges.

tomcat220t

Vegeta wrote: »

What do you mean by way better? Does it make foxes extra dead Only messing I assume you mean better in terms off accuracy

Sounds like your hunting ammo is twice as expensive as .223 hunting ammo. So lets say that in the same conditions your .204 ammo is twice as accurate as cheap .223 ammo

You hold 0.5 moa and I can only achieve 1 moa.
At 100 yards you're off by approx 0.5" at worst, result = dead fox
At 100 yards the .223 is off approx 1" at worst, result = dead fox

At 200 yards you're off by approx 1" at worst, result = dead fox
At 200 yards the .223 is off approx 2" at worst, result = dead fox

At 300 yards you're off by approx 1.5" at worst, result = dead fox
At 300 yards the .223 is off approx 3" at worst, result = dead fox


Don't see the added expense being worth it tbh

What about 4-500 yards ?Theres more to a .223 or .204 than 300 yards !Are you shooting theses foxes in an indoor range ? Wind drift , bullet drop .....What 12 euro a box round are you refairing to in.223 ? We are not machines so the further out ones shoots the less lightly we are to be 100% steady .At least i find this .

tomcat220t

clivej wrote: »

This topic comes up a lot here and this thread is no exception.

So what to do..........well try counting up the number of the different calibres and see which one is favorite/recomended the most.

Then do a search here and again count up the results.

No guessing what it will be realy is there.

223 is the tops.

CZ is prob..the favorite .22lr in ireland ...Does that make for the best .22?Remmy is prob.. the favorite centre also .....Becaues you say more people choose to shoot the .223 over other calibers on foxes doesent make it better suited .

ivanthehunter

You do no harm talking to greylag he was selling a 17 remmy and he might be able to shed some light on the recoil issue!
Seems that it might produce a lot less recoil...

regards ivanthehunter

vixdname

bunny shooter wrote: »

:eek: Really :rolleyes:

You haven't been shooting long I reckon :P

Effective ammo for a 223 starts at €25 + up to €36

I pay €36 for Swift and that will be better at long range (200 + yards) than a 223 ever will :P Or a .204 Ruger will kick the ****e out of a .223 at 300 Yards for €25 for 20 rounds :P

Bunny shooter, I've been shooting for decades and have owned .22lr, .22 magnums, .22 hornets, .220 swift, 12 gauge semi auto, and multiple .223 rifles and when living in the states owed AR15 semi and multiple calibre pistols and revolvers and dont appreciate broad sweeping statements like the one you made regarding that I haven't been shooting long, I have many years and many firearms under my belt.
Secondly, to say that effective ammo for a .223 rifle starts at €25 is incorrect, my rem700 loves American Eagle rounds and shoots them as straight as a die up to 300 yrds with a box of them costing €11 - half the price of the ammo your recommending.
As I'm sure a person with your obviously vast experience in shooting will already know that certain ammo suits certain rifles so to say effective .223 ammo starts at €25 is nonsence - its a matter of buying different types and trying them out and seeing which one suits your rifle.
Thirdly, to say that a .220 swift will be better at long ranges 200+ then a .223 ever will is also tripe, if you said from 300+ on then I'd agree.
Bunnyshooter, you seem to be more inclined to post comments on here in an effort to boost your own ego (i'm sure it needs it) and try inflate your obvious lacking knowledge of rifles in general while attempting to put down others opinions, you'd be better off not trying to prove yourself here in front of your peers, take your head out of your arse and spend more time reading about and practicing your sport and perhaps you will some day post more informed comments on this forum

bunny shooter

vixdname wrote: »

Bunny shooter, I've been shooting for decades and have owned .22lr, .22 magnums, .22 hornets, .220 swift, 12 gauge semi auto, and multiple .223 rifles and when living in the states owed AR15 semi and multiple calibre pistols and revolvers

Haven't we all

vixdname wrote: »

and dont appreciate broad sweeping statements like the one you made regarding that I haven't been shooting long, I have many years and many firearms under my belt.

You might not appreciate it but I stand by it

vixdname wrote: »

Secondly, to say that effective ammo for a .223 rifle starts at €25 is incorrect, my rem700 loves American Eagle rounds and shoots them as straight as a die up to 300 yrds with a box of them costing €11 - half the price of the ammo your recommending.

My extensive experience is the opposite and I can find many others who have found the same.

vixdname wrote: »

As I'm sure a person with your obviously vast experience in shooting will already know that certain ammo suits certain rifles so to say effective .223 ammo starts at €25 is nonsence - its a matter of buying different types and trying them out and seeing which one suits your rifle.

Agreed but sometimes the ammo quality is the major factor more so than what the rifle likes. Generally more expensive and better quality ammo will shoot better at extended ranges but will be equally as good as cheap inferior ammo at ranges of around 100 yards

vixdname wrote: »

Thirdly, to say that a .220 swift will be better at long ranges 200+ then a .223 ever will is also tripe, if you said from 300+ on then I'd agree.

My personal experience has been the opposite. From approx 150+ the swift out shoots the 223 in all departments.

vixdname wrote: »

Bunnyshooter, you seem to be more inclined to post comments on here in an effort to boost your own ego (i'm sure it needs it) and try inflate your obvious lacking knowledge of rifles in general while attempting to put down others opinions, you'd be better off not trying to prove yourself here in front of your peers, take your head out of your arse and spend more time reading about and practicing your sport and perhaps you will some day post more informed comments on this forum

:eek: aw................ now you hurt my feelings

BELOWaverageIQ

Time to get the popcorn ^^^^^^^^

If it's your first rifle, go for a .22lr or .17hmr before you move on to a .223 or similar.
Put loads of time behind the rimfire perfecting your shooting technique before moving onto a centrefire would be my twopence worth.

Hezz700

I would agree that the .223 is an excellent round for the job at hand. Personnally i use and much prefer .220 swift. But the OP should buy a .22lr and spent lots of time learning how to use it correctly, know its range and limitations and become an accomplished shot on smaller quarry first.

Then and only then, should he make the transition to a centerfire of his perference.



On a general note.....

Ammo cost should never be up for consideration where the shooting of live quarry is concerned.
If you are too cheep to have the respect for your prey as your number one priority, perhaps you should leave the safe locked.

ivanthehunter

In principle that moral stance is sound but one must consider the running cost of an article that one purchases during our short lives..

I suppose its to obvious to all here to suggest a muzzle brake or a silencer on the brother'n'laws 223 - this alone could yield a reduction in recoil up to perhaps 30% at an outside estimate.
Also as stated before the addition of weight to the firearm either by lead weights being strategically placed in the butt or extra weight added via a stock material with a high density such as that found in good hard wood stocks

The shooter could also add such items as Harris bi-pod and large scope to increase weight.

Also its important to use correct technique in holding the firearm to ones shoulder in a firm but relaxed stance allowing the body to move back with the recoil. Shooters should remember that the whole point of holding the gun on to you shoulder is to add extra weight to the firearm and thus inhibit excessive recoil from developing... remember you not trying to stop the gun from moving is space- if you do try this you sure will feel the burn.....Oh ye its also helps with your aim;)

Also most people fail to remember, yet we all know that recoil during the hunt is not even noticed as you're preoccupied with the prey yet this is never the case at the range where we feel every little bump- especially the older lite weight member of the shooting community;)
i.e. i feel no pain;)

vixdname

You might not appreciate it but I stand by it

Bunnyshooter, you have no idea how wrong you are, some but not all of your comments sound very junvenile so I'm betting your pretty young and think you know it all or are as old as myself and are still an idiot.
I have dual citizenship between the US and Ireland and thankfully the US hasnt the draconian laws that Ireland has in regards to gun ownership and the restrictions on what calibre guns can be legally held here.
So when you say "Haven't we all" you again are talking nonsence.
When was the last time you owned a .223 semi automatic for example..let me guess .......NEVER !!!
When was the last time you fired a .50 cal sniper rifle on a decent range........NEVER !!!! or should I say ANY range or perhaps when was the last time you fired off a round from a .50 Desert Eagle........NEVER !!!
The point I'm illustrating Bunnyshooter is that you shouldn't assume that everyone on this forum has had such a restricted choice of guns available to them like you've had. So in future you should think twice before replying with a "Haven't We All" comment when someone lists SOME of the guns they've been lucky enough to own\shoot in the past, it only serves to make you sound more ridiculous.

bunny shooter

I know I shouldn't and I risk yet another infraction BUT ...............

I have owned a LOT of firearms and used more so as you say don't presume :P

I have fired a Steyr AUG 5.56 in semi and on full auto, FN FAL in 7.62 both semi & auto, 81mm Mortar, FN GPMG, Bren LMG in .303", Browning 9mm, Gustaf 9mm and I've owned a Tangfoglio .40 Cal, CZ 9mm and 2 x 22lr pistols, numerous 223's, 220 Swifts, .204 Rugers, 17 Rems, .243, 6.5 x 55, .303, .22lr's, .22 WMR, .17 HMR. .22 Hornet etc :P

And everything in America is so much bigger & better than here

Us rednecks know nothing and we should bow to your superior knowledge :rolleyes:

la la la la la la la la la la la

Sparks

Well, wasn't that productive.
Thread locked before we have to start banning folk who should know better.