Where would you like to see Ireland's Energy come from?

dowlingm

Disgusted that zero point energy is not available in the poll

:D:D:D:D

Carawaystick

dowlingm wrote: »

Disgusted that zero point energy is not available in the poll

:D:D:D:D

In *this* forum Lisa, we obey the laws of thermodynamics.


Gas should be separate from oil, they're fairly different technologies, and there's feic all oil generation nowadays here.

The French nukes can be throttled back when there's low demand, which is why they've all such huge cooling towers, to waste the energy at off peak.

Could whoever said wind can generate up to 70% of our electricity demand explain how that 70% would be generated when there's no wind? and how would the operators of the 70% spare capacity make any money by not generating power when it's windy?

Del2005

Carawaystick wrote: »

The French nukes can be throttled back when there's low demand, which is why they've all such huge cooling towers, to waste the energy at off peak.

Could whoever said wind can generate up to 70% of our electricity demand explain how that 70% would be generated when there's no wind? and how would the operators of the 70% spare capacity make any money by not generating power when it's windy?

Only way for that to work is for us to use the French nukes for base load.

If we want to be at the forefront of renewable energy we are going to have to build major interconnectors to Europe. We get the benefit both ways. Sell "Green" excess power when we have decent wind and get dirty power back when it isn't blowing. No need for NIMBY's to worry about nuclear as we'll have it 1000's of km from us.:D

KevR

Just back from a university field trip to the coal burning power station in Moneypoint. The reason we went was to look at their distributed realtime control system but got a good general tour of the place also.

• They have recently installed scrubbers in the stacks to capture sulphur dioxide and carbon monoxide. This has allowed them to burn coal with a high sulphur content and has lowered the cost of coal somewhat.
• They are looking into installing a system to capture carbon dioxide also.
• Moneypoint is not used as a base load station on the national grid anymore - as wind picks up, Moneypoint powers down. When there is no wind, Moneypoint increases it's output.
• They only expect to get 5 shipments of coal this year; as opposed to 10 last year.
• They made good profits during the cold snap of the Christmas - higher demand for electricity because of the cold weather and there was very little wind at the time.
• Some of the bye-product (ash) is sold and can be made into bricks. The ash apparently becomes almost like concrete when it gets wet. Some of the bye-product gets used in road building.
• There are ongoing efforts to plant lots of trees in the area.

Zen65

Sponge Bob wrote: »

We won't have tidal in Ireland .....because we have feck all tides in Ireland. Wave maybe but not for 10 years. Actually seeing as I vaguely remember the fun with Salters Duck ....make that 20 years.

There are no commercial wave energy production plants anywhere in the world. Lots of research units, but always ultimately abandoned. The sea is a cruel environment for materials, and to date no technology has been fit for commercial operation. Tidal is more promising, but again the results are very mixed.

Z

Yixian

Spirit of Ireland baby.

limklad

KevR wrote: »

Just back from a university field trip to the coal burning power station in Moneypoint. The reason we went was to look at their distributed realtime control system but got a good general tour of the place also.

• They have recently installed scrubbers in the stacks to capture sulphur dioxide and carbon monoxide. This has allowed them to burn coal with a high sulphur content and has lowered the cost of coal somewhat.
• They are looking into installing a system to capture carbon dioxide also.
• Moneypoint is not used as a base load station on the national grid anymore - as wind picks up, Moneypoint powers down. When there is no wind, Moneypoint increases it's output.
• They only expect to get 5 shipments of coal this year; as opposed to 10 last year.
• They made good profits during the cold snap of the Christmas - higher demand for electricity because of the cold weather and there was very little wind at the time.
• Some of the bye-product (ash) is sold and can be made into bricks. The ash apparently becomes almost like concrete when it gets wet. Some of the bye-product gets used in road building.
• There are ongoing efforts to plant lots of trees in the area.

It good to know that they are recycling the waste ash is going into useful products into road material and into building and not into landfills.
This is probably off topic. What do they do with sulphur dioxide and carbon monoxide? How do they store it or manage to deal with it disposal?

dowlingm

limklad wrote: »

It good to know that they are recycling the waste ash is going into useful products into road material and into building and not into landfills.
This is probably off topic. What do they do with sulphur dioxide and carbon monoxide? How do they store it or manage to deal with it disposal?

SO2 gets made into gypsum with limestone (fortunately something Ireland's not short of)

http://www.ipplc.com/en/environment-and-society/environment/in-action/reducing-sulphur-emissions.aspx

limklad

dowlingm wrote: »

SO2 gets made into gypsum with limestone (fortunately something Ireland's not short of)

http://www.ipplc.com/en/environment-and-society/environment/in-action/reducing-sulphur-emissions.aspx

yea, there is plenty of it in the Burren (north of Moneypoint)! :eek:

Then does anyone know what Moneypoint does with carbon monoxide (CO)?

AugustusMinimus

Says it all about this country.

40% of the votes here are for Nuclear Power and yet the government have outright banned Nuclear Power.

KevR

limklad wrote: »

yea, there is plenty of it in the Burren (north of Moneypoint)! :eek:

Then does anyone know what Moneypoint does with carbon monoxide (CO)?

As far as I know, they have scrubbers to capture carbon monoxide. I presume these scrubbers are then disposed of in a manner which doesn't allow any release of the CO.

limklad

I would love to have vote on more options.
I generally want a mix of options for energy generation, including micro generating at homes. (there is no harm house owner earning a bit of money on the side, I meant Roof! ).

Storage of power on off peak times for use on on-peak.
Similar to Turlough Hill although that system is very inefficient electrically but useful to meet peak demand when required. Where they pump water to to the Reservoir, at night using surplus power and let the water go running turbines during peak times.

I noticed that Ardnacrusha Hydro power station Co. Clare, near Limerick City is not mentioned in the ESB Hydro Development website. It was the First Hydro Power station in Ireland and Ireland Largest supplier of electricity in the early days of electrification. It is only mentioned here in its history and still been used today suppling 85MW of power from the Shannon River. It passed Environmental Management Systems (EMS) to ISO 14001 in 2008. It was not hard for it to pass since it input and output are environmentally friendly emissions.

limklad

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Says it all about this country.

40% of the votes here are for Nuclear Power and yet the government have outright banned Nuclear Power.

More like 40% will allow imported electricity from Nuclear Power and leave the Brits and the French deal with the Nuclear waste in decades to come. Just build an Interconnector to France as well as Britian.

limklad

KevR wrote: »

As far as I know, they have scrubbers to capture carbon monoxide. I presume these scrubbers are then disposed of in a manner which doesn't allow any release of the CO.

Yea, But my question is who do they dispose of it to prevent escape into the environment after capture?

serfboard

Del2005 wrote: »

Only way for that to work is for us to use the French nukes for base load.

If we want to be at the forefront of renewable energy we are going to have to build major interconnectors to Europe. We get the benefit both ways. Sell "Green" excess power when we have decent wind and get dirty power back when it isn't blowing. No need for NIMBY's to worry about nuclear as we'll have it 1000's of km from us.:D

That attitude is totally selfish, typically Irish, and being a paid-up member of the hypocrite's club myself, fully deserving of my support

Rather like the abortion debate it would allow us to pat ourselves on the back and say "no nuclear power here, thanks", and sneakily buy it in the back door.

Ah yes, I can see the politicians going for that one alright

SeanW

Energy2010 wrote: »

I've noticed in the poll Nuclear Energy seems to be the choice most people would like to see. However if it came down to a nuclear plant being built in their own county would they be so supportive?

Asolutely. (I voted for nuclear power in this poll) so long as I could ascertain the plant was to be professionally run and of a modern Western reactor design, I would wholeheartedly welcome one even as a next-door neighbor.

The amount of scaremongering and bull**** surrounding nuclear electricity in unimaginable.

In the interim though, a big Interconnector to France is probably the best "Irish solution"

BluntGuy

SeanW wrote: »

The amount of scaremongering and bull**** surrounding nuclear electricity in unimaginable.

There certainly is, but there is also genuine concern. I wouldn't be a supporter of Nuclear Energy as a solution, though I can see a point in the future where I may just have to accept that it will be at least part of the solution, whatever my own reservations about it.

However, in any case, people need to properly informed about it. They need to be told the true facts. This means informing them about the improved safety features, but it also means informing them about the types of incidents that can occur and have occured.

del88

Mini nuclear plants to power 20,000 homes

£13m shed-size reactors will be delivered by lorry
here's more.....

fitzie79

i think as big a challenge as energy generation is energy storage. if we can develop a cost effective way of storing energy it makes a lot of the renewables like wind and wave much more attractive.

BluntGuy

fitzie79 wrote: »

i think as big a challenge as energy generation is energy storage. if we can develop a cost effective way of storing energy it makes a lot of the renewables like wind and wave much more attractive.

That's the biggie.

I'm sure we're all mostly familiar with Spirit of Ireland's proposal by now, which is to use reservoirs to store energy.

fitzie79

i've come across a few articles recently as well where compressed air is being mooted as a possible way of storing energy. this would have less of a visual impact on the environment and apparently is well suited to wind power

AugustusMinimus

limklad wrote: »

More like 40% will allow imported electricity from Nuclear Power and leave the Brits and the French deal with the Nuclear waste in decades to come. Just build an Interconnector to France as well as Britian.

An Irish solution to an Irish problem.

Very sad.

Fiskar

Interesting vote, majority saying nuclear is the way to go.
Unfortunately when it comes to where it should be located we talk it down. By the time we make a decision on this it will be TOO late and TOO expensive to do.
Other countries know there is a nuclear fuel supply limitation and no doubt have own interests sorted.
Our best interests lie in securing an interconnector to the UK through to Europe.

FreudianSlippers

If we built up a good renewable energy production system (imho a combination of wind/wave) we could sell the excess energy to UK and Europe. Clean energy is fast becoming a big commodity.
The money made could seriously help our economy too.

fresca

An interesting experiment in solar power...
I love the concept of the podcar ... the personal rapid transit...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8586046.stm

Masdar: Abu Dhabi's carbon-neutral city

The world's first zero-carbon city is being built in Abu Dhabi and is designed to be not only free of cars and skyscrapers but also powered by the sun.

The oil-rich United Arab Emirates is the last place you would expect to learn lessons on low-carbon living, but the emerging eco-city of Masdar could teach the world.

At first glance, the parched landscape of Abu Dhabi looks like the craziest place to build any city, let alone a sustainable one.

The inhospitable terrain suggests that the only way to survive here is with the maximum of technological support, a bit like living on the moon.

The genius of Masdar - if it works - will be combining 21st Century engineering with traditional desert architecture to deliver zero-carbon comfort. And it is being built now.

Masdar will be home to about 50,000 people, at least 1,000 businesses and a university.

It is being designed by British architects Foster and Partners, but it is the ruler of Abu Dhabi, Sheikh Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahyan, who is paying for it. And it will cost between £10bn ($15bn) and £20bn ($30bn).

Renewable energy

The architects are turning the desert's greatest threat - the sun - into their greatest asset.

They have built the biggest solar farm in the Middle East to power the city and to offset the inevitable burning of diesel and baking of cement in construction.

They are also experimenting. One project involves a circular field of mirrors on the ground, all reflecting towards a tower in the middle.

That, in turn, bounces the light down in a concentrated beam about a metre (3ft) wide to produce heat and drive generators.

But I was told firmly not to wander over and feel the warmth, as it could fry me in seconds.

The international team of engineers have real pride in their work.

This is more than building to them, it is a lab bench with the freedom to get it wrong, and Masdar's chief architect Gerard Evenden loves the concentration of expertise: "What Abu Dhabi is beginning to generate is the Silicon Valley of renewable energy."

Keeping cool

The Emirates have seen one of the world's most spectacular building booms paid for by oil and made tolerable by air conditioners, which also depend on oil to feed their vast appetite for energy.

But Masdar will have to be low temperature and low carbon.

Part of the solution is apparent the moment you walk in. And you do "walk in" because this is a city surrounded by a wall, a defined boundary.

Unlike the upward and outward sprawl of Dubai or Abu Dhabi, Masdar is compact like ancient Arab cities.

Streets are narrow so buildings shade each other, and the walls and roofs of buildings will do their bit to shed heat too.

The vertical faces are dressed with screens which look like a terracotta mesh. They keep the sun out but let the breeze in.

And as architect Gerard Evenden says: "Lunar technology has begun to influence our thinking."

One idea being tested is using a thin foil surface covering, a gas or vacuum blanket, to keep the heat out. It is an idea dreamt up for a moon base.

To encourage a breeze, wind towers are being built, drawing draughts through the streets without using energy.

Masdar will still use electricity for gadgets, some air conditioning and, most crucially, to desalinate sea water but, when it comes to power, the city has a simple mantra: "Only use energy when you have exhausted design."

Driverless vehicles

Conventional cars must be checked in at the city gates and then you can choose between the oldest and newest modes of transport.
Map of United Arab Emirates

At street level, it is all pedestrianised and the planners have done their best to keep the city compact and foot-friendly.

But if fatigue overtakes you, then slip down a level and meet the Personal Rapid Transit or podcars.

These driverless vehicles are guided by magnetic sensors, powered by solar electricity, and they stop automatically if an obstacle appears. They are programmed to go where you ask.

Kaled Awad, director of the Masdar project claims: "The quality of air will be better than any other street in the Gulf and in the world, and that alone will bring you safety, health and happiness."

The future success of the project will be clear to see.

On top of the wind tower, there will be a beacon betraying the city's actual energy use: red for too much, blue for just right.

It will be 45m (147ft) up and visible for miles around so, when Masdar is finished in five to 10 years' time, we will all know if it is in the red.