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Means Test -Living with Boyfriend

  • 26-02-2010 6:40pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13 naturalgoodies


    For the past year I have been on a 3 day week and recieving jobseekers benefit for the days I was not working. Unfortunately my company closed down this week so I am now full time unemployed. As I recieved the jobseekers benefit for a year now I think I will be means tested soon. If I live with my boyfriend I know that I will not qualify for the jobseekers allowance based on his income. However I really do not expect him to support me as he is just my boyfriend. Is the best option for me to move out or would it be really bad to say I just live with a friend? We live in a 2 bed house.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 899 djk1000
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    There's nothing wrong with you moving out, perfectly legal. Your other option is to commit fraud, which would not be clever at all.

    Unmarried couples get short changed in terms of benefits and tax, just a fact of life unfortunately.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,920 cee_jay
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    would it be really bad to say I just live with a friend? We live in a 2 bed house.
    That would be fraud.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,262 Joey the lips
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    Your best bet is to move out.... I do charity work and we am helping a girl in the exact same situation. Besides the fact that its fraud. Welfare will cut you off compleatly if they find out and it will be 12 weeks before you get anything.

    Either you move out, He moves out or you get meanstested...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13 naturalgoodies


    Thanks for everyone who replied.
    I defo do not want to commit fraud, I just think it seems pretty unfair.
    Fingers crossed I will find a job pretty soon before I have to be means tested


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,262 Joey the lips
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    Thanks for everyone who replied.
    I defo do not want to commit fraud, I just think it seems pretty unfair.
    Fingers crossed I will find a job pretty soon before I have to be means tested

    I know... its becuse of the people who are madly in love and shareing everything....;)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,663 wench
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    For the past year I have been on a 3 day week and recieving jobseekers benefit for the days I was not working. Unfortunately my company closed down this week so I am now full time unemployed. As I recieved the jobseekers benefit for a year now I think I will be means tested soon.

    Just to note that the JB is paid for 312 days. If you were full time unemployed, then this equals 1 year @ 6 days a week. As you were claiming for 3 days a week you will have used up about 6 months worth.
    So before you make any hasty changes to your living arrangements, ask how many days you have left.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,050 axel rose
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    I dont understand. Why is meanstesting unfair?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13 naturalgoodies


    I think means testing is unfair for cohabitating couples because:

    We are not treated as a married couple for tax purposes or other entitlements.
    Seems that conhabitating couples are just recognised by the state when it suits them.

    Also in our instance we have not been living together long and we are financially independent. We have separate bank accounts and pay our own bills eg car loan, credit card bills. Yes we do share telephone and gas bills but so do friends/siblings who live together.

    Also what happens with same sex couples?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 156 Tiddlers
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    I'm in complete agreement with natural goodies.
    I must confess that myself and my boyfriend did lie and we got away with it...for a while and ever since I urge my friends or anyone thinking of lying not too.Initially I had to go to the HSE for emergency dole as the S.W waiting list was so long.They caught us out straight away as they make house calls. We have a 2 bedroom house but their inspection was thorough!However, it was a while before S.W. caught us out. Didn't turn out too badly as my partner is working in a low paid job (less than€ 300 a week) and I now get the JSA I'm entitled to and a spouse allowance.
    Moral of my story is that the S.W. aren't fools and they probably will investigate any suspicious living arrangements and never make assumptions about JSA as your situation may not be the same as someone elses.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13 naturalgoodies


    Wench. Thanks for the info. Looks like I should be entitled to jobseekers benefit for longer than I expected. This relieves the stress a bit. Hopefully I will get a new job very soon and will not have to worry about having zero income once I am means tested. I really hate the thought of having to get my boyfriend to pay everything for me. Its not really fair on him.


    Tiddlers, I agree. I think its best to be honest with social welfare.Hopefully you will get a job sorted soon too. We have to be positive.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 899 djk1000
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    I think means testing is unfair for cohabitating couples because:

    We are not treated as a married couple for tax purposes or other entitlements.
    Seems that conhabitating couples are just recognised by the state when it suits them.

    Also in our instance we have not been living together long and we are financially independent. We have separate bank accounts and pay our own bills eg car loan, credit card bills. Yes we do share telephone and gas bills but so do friends/siblings who live together.

    Also what happens with same sex couples?


    Yeah it's completely unfair, but there are reasons for it, first of all, the constitution didn't really consider cohabiting and it gives marriage and the family primacy. Secondly and more importantly, lets say one person is working and someone else isn't, they could claim cohabitation and the person that's not working could give their tax credits to the person that was. There are many permutations of how that could be pulled off and it would be very difficult to prove otherwise.

    As for same sex relationships, they are cohabiting and don't get any benefits either, however, a same sex couple would probably have an easier time convincing the welfare that they were just sharing a house or apartment.

    The civil partnership legislation is on its way, it should give some benefits to cohabiting couples (not sure if it is just available to same sex couples though).

    Think long and hard about moving out, I was in what i thought was a solid relationship. I had to move out for the same reasons as you, we broke up about 6 months later. The giant step back in our relationship killed us.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 317 jockey#1
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    Tiddlers wrote: »
    I'm in complete agreement with natural goodies.
    I must confess that myself and my boyfriend did lie and we got away with it...for a while and ever since I urge my friends or anyone thinking of lying not too.Initially I had to go to the HSE for emergency dole as the S.W waiting list was so long.They caught us out straight away as they make house calls. We have a 2 bedroom house but their inspection was thorough!However, it was a while before S.W. caught us out. Didn't turn out too badly as my partner is working in a low paid job (less than€ 300 a week) and I now get the JSA I'm entitled to and a spouse allowance.
    Moral of my story is that the S.W. aren't fools and they probably will investigate any suspicious living arrangements and never make assumptions about JSA as your situation may not be the same as someone elses.

    Just wondering you said their search was through? Could you elaborate as to what they did?

    I am soon to be on the dole. Currently living with my girlfriend in a 3 bed house. From reading other peoples posts they means test as a couple. Do they just consider means to be the spouses gross income or do they actually allow for deductions such as loan repayments, rent, travel costs etc?

    Thanks


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 156 Tiddlers
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    jockey#1 wrote: »
    Just wondering you said their search was through? Could you elaborate as to what they did?


    The visit wasn't arranged, possibly so that they can catch liars off guard! The inspector came to our house which has 2 bedrooms at 9am. By thorough I mean that she inspected the beds for signs they were being slept in and had a nose around both rooms to see how they were both being used.It seemed invasive but they are jsut doing their job.Of course, that was just the lady from HSE, not the Dept of Family and Social Affairs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 190 drum!
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    This has scared the bejaysus out of me! My JB is coming to an end in about a month or two and i have to be means tested for JA. I am living with my girlfriend but she is barely making enough to cover her own costs, she can't support me. If i put down that i live with her, i know well they'll just assume she's supporting me when she's not.

    Does anyone whether they means test based on my partners gross income, disposable income (i.e whats left after utilities, rent etc) or gross income after social contributions and tax made? Does anyone know what is an acceptably low amount of money for my partner to earn in order to pass the means test?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 719 drunk_monk
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    My girlfriend and I were means tested last July. I had to hand in her wage slip.They calculated her pay over 25 weeks and then deducted prsi (not tax) and got her weekly income they then calculate 60% of that and thats then the fugure they work with. So lets say:
    Gross income over 25 weeks = €30,000
    less PRSI €2,800 = €27,200.
    Divide €27,200 by 25 weeks = €1088
    60% of €1088 = €652.80
    Weekly income is €652.80

    The cut off point is around €330pw (I think)

    At least this is what they did with us


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 190 drum!
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    cheers dude! So if your partner earns less than 330 a week based on that calculation, you still get your full JA or is it 330 per house/couple i.e. Her wage plus my benefit combined per week?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 719 drunk_monk
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    Yes if your partner earns less than the cut off point you will be entitled to JA, at least that's what we were told last July (we didn't qualify). The only thing is I'm unable to find the letter they sent so I'm not sure what the cut off point is, it's around €330ish pw, maybe someone else knows??


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 190 drum!
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    Thanks man. If someone can confirm that cut-off that would be deadly! cheers




  • The system is utterly ridiculous for things like this. What difference does it make whether you live with your boyfriend or best mate? It's utterly ridiculous that a postgrad student or unemployed person is supposed to be supported by someone who has absolutely no legal obligation to support them (i.e not a parent or spouse). Cohabiting couples have no rights when it comes to receiving benefits, yet are disadvantaged when it suits the state. People calling around to check if the beds have been slept in, ffs!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,920 cee_jay
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    drum! wrote: »
    This has scared the bejaysus out of me! My JB is coming to an end in about a month or two and i have to be means tested for JA. I am living with my girlfriend but she is barely making enough to cover her own costs, she can't support me. If i put down that i live with her, i know well they'll just assume she's supporting me when she's not.

    There's no "if" about it - if you are living with your girlfriend you HAVE to declare it - otherwise it is fraud.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 190 drum!
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    der


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,205 cruizer101
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    I could be wrong as I don't know much about this. But I imagine you are contributing a certain ammount towards the running of house, i.e. splitting bills and that. So can you not just give him a certain ammount of money each month and say you are renting, which is effectively what you are doing.

    What is different between a living with a friend and living with a boyfriend.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,920 cee_jay
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    cruizer101 wrote: »
    I could be wrong as I don't know much about this. But I imagine you are contributing a certain ammount towards the running of house, i.e. splitting bills and that. So can you not just give him a certain ammount of money each month and say you are renting, which is effectively what you are doing.

    What is different between a living with a friend and living with a boyfriend.

    No you cannot because that would be fraud.
    No more discussion along those lines please.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 317 jockey#1
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    If you are living with your bf or gf and you are entitled to JSB for 12 months as opposed to JSA are you still means tested?

    Thanks

    Jockey


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,205 cruizer101
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    cAr0l wrote: »
    No you cannot because that would be fraud.
    No more discussion along those lines please.

    My intrepetation of it is that it isn't fraud.
    From welfare.ie:

    A couple in this case means:
    Each person of a married couple who are living together, or a man and woman who are not married to each other, but are cohabiting as husband and wife.

    To be cohabiting as husband and wife is a lot different then to be cohabiting as bf & gf.

    There own defintion of cohabiting is here: http://www.welfare.ie/EN/OperationalGuidelines/pages/cohabit.aspx

    from it:
    As there is no other definition in law of what constitutes cohabitation, the relationship between the man and the woman must be shown to be the same as that of a husband and wife. As relationships and domestic and financial arrangements between husbands and wives vary considerably each individual case must be considered on its own particular facts.

    There are plenty of couples who move in together who would not consider their relationship the same as husband and wife.

    Also:

    In establishing entitlement to an increase in respect of a partner, the onus is on the claimant to produce satisfactory evidence to show that cohabitation exists. In the other contexts listed above, where an entitlement may be limited or withdrawn, the onus is on the Department to satisfy the Deciding Officer that cohabitation exists.

    You can claim you are not cohabiting and the Department has to prove otherwise.

    So once you are honest and disclose everything I see no problem in still claiming that a bf and gf living together can be considered separate for means testing, there is no fraud here its just leaving the Department to prove something.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 719 drunk_monk
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    drum! wrote: »
    Thanks man. If someone can confirm that cut-off that would be deadly! cheers

    drum, you might find the info your looking for on the INOU website here:

    http://www.inou.ie/welfarerights/unemployedjobseeker/jobseekersallow.html

    On it it says: For more information on the Benefit and Privilege calculation please contact the Welfare to Work Section of the INOU at 01 - 856 0088

    Thanks


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 331 Rookster
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    djk1000 wrote: »
    There's nothing wrong with you moving out, perfectly legal. Your other option is to commit fraud, which would not be clever at all.
    Unmarried couples get short changed in terms of benefits and tax, just a fact of life unfortunately
    .

    How can you say that. That is just factually incorrect as the opposite is the case. How many unmarried mothers are claimimg all their allowances while the boyfriend is also living with her and could have a full time job. A married couple in the same circumstances is much more worse off. Please get your facts straight please.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 18,003 ixoy
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    djk1000 wrote: »
    As for same sex relationships, they are cohabiting and don't get any benefits either, however, a same sex couple would probably have an easier time convincing the welfare that they were just sharing a house or apartment.
    Same-sex couples don't have to prove a thing currently. We can't be means-tested as a couple because it only applies to those who appear to live as if they were man and wife. In the State's eyes the relationship has no legal basis (and barely exists) so it doesn't get means tested.
    The civil partnership legislation is on its way, it should give some benefits to cohabiting couples (not sure if it is just available to same sex couples though).
    Yeah it only applies to same-sex couples and it will presumably give you the tax rights as a couple but also means test you as a couple if you appear to be co-habiting.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,986 Moonbeam
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Rookster wrote: »
    djk1000 wrote: »
    There's nothing wrong with you moving out, perfectly legal. Your other option is to commit fraud, which would not be clever at all.

    .

    How can you say that. That is just factually incorrect as the opposite is the case. How many unmarried mothers are claimimg all their allowances while the boyfriend is also living with her and could have a full time job. A married couple in the same circumstances is much more worse off. Please get your facts straight please.

    That is a stupid reply.
    Anyone can choose to break the law and be better off including that married couple.
    If they doing everything above bored and legally the co-habiting couple are worse off.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 190 drum!
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    drunk_monk wrote: »
    drum, you might find the info your looking for on the INOU website here:

    http://www.inou.ie/welfarerights/unemployedjobseeker/jobseekersallow.html

    On it it says: For more information on the Benefit and Privilege calculation please contact the Welfare to Work Section of the INOU at 01 - 856 0088

    Thanks

    Thanks for this link. I called these guys above and they say there's no cut off. They basically disregard the first 60 euro of your partners income ,deduct 60% from what's left and then that amount is deducted the Jobseekers Allowance. So basically, regardless of how little or how much your partner/girlfriend/wife earns you will still end up having all or most of this taken away from you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 468 blossom180
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    .........


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 Stab*City
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    What payments exactly are an unemployed unmarried couple with two kids both on the dole at the moment entitled to?


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,986 Moonbeam
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    The same as a married couple in the same situation.
    Is it jsb or jsa that you are both on?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 Stab*City
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    jsa as far as i know..


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 6,854 mp22
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    ttp://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/unemployed-people/jobseekers-allowance


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2 venus086


    I was just wondering would I be better of being on jobseekers benefit than on job allowance as I am cohabiting with my boyfriend which is on Job allowance, we are both working 2 days weekly and are been means tested and are hardly receiveing anything on this, but I do have stamps as I have just signed on and it is only gonna be for another 6 weeks. They have us both on Job allowance which is means tested, as I gather the benefit is not.

    Thanks


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,959 Jesus Shaves
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    For the past year I have been on a 3 day week and recieving jobseekers benefit for the days I was not working. Unfortunately my company closed down this week so I am now full time unemployed. As I recieved the jobseekers benefit for a year now I think I will be means tested soon. If I live with my boyfriend I know that I will not qualify for the jobseekers allowance based on his income. However I really do not expect him to support me as he is just my boyfriend. Is the best option for me to move out or would it be really bad to say I just live with a friend? We live in a 2 bed house.

    Break up with him, move all yours or his stuff into the other room
    You are now just friends and can claim Full JSA.
    Also it's not then viewed as fraud;)


This discussion has been closed.
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