Atheist Spirituality

Deus Ex

I can already feel the knives coming out with the mention of (in whispered tones) "spirituality".

The reason I ask is because I've been reading Sam Harris' The End of Faith, and it is this topic he deals with in the last chapter.

The word spirituality brings with it a lot of new-age baggage, but I find his take on it quiet interesting. He's really just concerned with the positive effects of meditation, and seems to wish it was more widely used. Its not an area I'm familiar with, but I am quite interested.

What's your opinion?

Daftendirekt

It really depends on how you define spirituality.

I think having some 'spiritual' dimension in your life is definitely a good thing, but that's not to say it needs to be (or even should be) anything supernatural. Maybe 'personal growth' would be a better term.

Edit: Welcome to Boards by the way!

Ghost Buster

Deus Ex wrote: »

I can already feel the knives coming out with the mention of (in whispered tones) "spirituality".

The reason I ask is because I've been reading Sam Harris' The End of Faith, and it is this topic he deals with in the last chapter.

The word spirituality brings with it a lot of new-age baggage, but I find his take on it quiet interesting. He's really just concerned with the positive effects of meditation, and seems to wish it was more widely used. Its not an area I'm familiar with, but I am quite interested.

What's your opinion?

Well. I dont know the book to which you refer or its subject matter so lets just deal with the issue of meditation.
Though a part of some religions and spiritualitys isnt meditation simply a form of deep relaxation?
The human mind is a complex thing and i can see how when a person enters an altered state during meditation or in dreams or sleep paralysis or those freaky half awake dreams you have in a lie in (:D) or a drug induced state, they might beleive there is some sort of supernatural / spiritual thing occuring. But there isnt.
By all means there is positive effects of meditation. I meditate but there is nothing spiritual about it.

Deus Ex

Daftendirekt wrote: »

It really depends on how you define spirituality.

I think having some 'spiritual' dimension in your life is definitely a good thing, but that's not to say it needs to be (or even should be) anything supernatural. Maybe 'personal growth' would be a better term.

Edit: Welcome to Boards by the way!

Thanks

Yeah I think it's very important as well. It's just unfortunate that the whole concept has been hijacked.

Dave!

Yeah I'd agree that the term carries alot of baggage with it

If I'm not mistaken Sam Harris spent a few years living with monks and the likes, meditating for hours on end, etc. He's a fan of all that Eastern philosophy stuff. He's actually been criticised for that by some fellow atheists. Doesn't he believe in reincarnation?

Unless you start introducing supernatural elements into your spirituality, then there's nothing contradictory about engaging in it while also professing to be a rationalist/skeptic/whateveryourehavin -- and if you do introduce magical crap into it, then you can still be considered an atheist, since atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods.

I'm sure some people benefit from the kind of spirituality Harris advocates, but I don't personally have any desire for it. I love science and I'm fascinated by nature, the universe, psychology, etc. I have no reason to use the term 'spiritual' to refer to myself.


And yes, welcome to the forum ! Hope you stick around !

Daftendirekt

Dave! wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken Sam Harris spent a few years living with monks and the likes, meditating for hours on end, etc. He's a fan of all that Eastern philosophy stuff. He's actually been criticised for that by some fellow atheists. Doesn't he believe in reincarnation?

I don't think he specifically believes in reincarnation, but for him the jury's still out on whether consciousness can still exist after the body dies. As far as I can remember anyway.

Deus Ex

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Well. I dont know the book to which you refer or its subject matter so lets just deal with the issue of meditation.
Though a part of some religions and spiritualitys isnt meditation simply a form of deep relaxation?
The human mind is a complex thing and i can see how when a person enters an altered state during meditation or in dreams or sleep paralysis or those freaky half awake dreams you have in a lie in (:D) or a drug induced state, they might beleive there is some sort of supernatural / spiritual thing occuring. But there isnt.
By all means there is positive effects of meditation. I meditate but there is nothing spiritual about it.

I should have provided a little more information in my original post. The author is a fairy staunch atheist, one could say uncompromising.

He closely aligns himself with the meditative aspects of a particular school of Buddhism (the name of which has escaped me).

His chief concern is with meditation, he does also touch upon some of the ethical aspects of this type of enterprise. What you said is pretty much the point he also tries to make.

Ickle Magoo

Knives out, lol. Surely not. Maybe a gentle poke with a fork? :P

My other-half is an atheist and leans towards Buddhism, does a lot of meditation, believes in souls, reincarnation, things like that...death and so on is a lot greyer an area for him than for me. :cool:

Dave!

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Knives out, lol. Surely not. Maybe a gentle poke with a fork? :P

My other-half is an atheist and leans towards Buddhism, does a lot of meditation, believes in souls, reincarnation, things like that...death and so on is a lot greyer an area for him than for me. :cool:

omg totally didn't know you were a female :eek:

Ickle Magoo

Dave! wrote: »

omg totally didn't know you were a female :eek:

I take it I don't have a very girly posting style?!

Deus Ex

Everyone is no nice around here!

Dave! wrote: »

I love science and I'm fascinated by nature, the universe, psychology, etc. I have no reason to use the term 'spiritual' to refer to myself.

Dave, it's interesting you mention psychology and the universe, because it is for these very reasons that I do feel a need for the 'spiritual' in my life. Albeit a secular variety.

I have had some profound experiences while using LSD and various mushrooms/cactus. There is little point in trying to render the intensity of these experiences into words, but suffice it to say they were on the high end of psychological wonder. The feeling you experience when contemplating the universe, and your place in it, is, shall we say, deep.

Obviously this isn't for everybody, but I believe it is possible to reconcile one's atheism, with a 'spiritual' experience of some magnitude. Each of these experiences fundamentally improved my life, but they are of no challenge to my rational world view.

Dades

Welcome OP.

Religion doesn't have the monopoly on being "spiritual", which means atheism and being spiritual don't have to be mutually exclusive.

That said, a lot of the baggage that comes with the term spiritual is deserved, imo. I think if you describe yourself as spiritual without so much as a nod towards anything potentially 'supernatural', then you are using the term very loosely.

Deus Ex

Dades wrote: »

Welcome OP.

Religion doesn't have the monopoly on being "spiritual", which means atheism and being spiritual don't have to be mutually exclusive.

That said, a lot of the baggage that comes with the term spiritual is deserved, imo. I think if you describe yourself as spiritual without so much as a nod towards anything potentially 'supernatural', then you are using the term very loosely.

Yeah, it really is a question of baggage isn't it.

Another essentially contested concept. I hate those.

Dr. Loon

Deus Ex wrote: »

Everyone is no nice around here!



Dave, it's interesting you mention psychology and the universe, because it is for these very reasons that I do feel a need for the 'spiritual' in my life. Albeit a secular variety.

I have had some profound experiences while using LSD and various mushrooms/cactus. There is little point in trying to render the intensity of these experiences into words, but suffice it to say they were on the high end of psychological wonder. The feeling you experience when contemplating the universe, and your place in it, is, shall we say, deep.

Obviously this isn't for everybody, but I believe it is possible to reconcile one's atheism, with a 'spiritual' experience of some magnitude. Each of these experiences fundamentally improved my life, but they are of no challenge to my rational world view.

Interesting. Any thoughts on what role hallucinogens may have had in evolution? The name escapes me but I recall seeing a video on some dude, that suggested in small doses, mushrooms provide more visual acuity, indicating that foraging animals would naturally eat them in order to better track down their pray, therefore becoming the stronger survivor. Obviously stronger doses have you tripping, but in my experiences with hallucinogens I've always had a phenomenal visual clarity, as well as "spiritual".

I imagine the natural human desire for a higher power, or spiritual aspect, led to the shaman's, and the use of hallucinogens to better connect with that spiritual side.

When I first fully embraced my atheism, I started studying science a bit more, and have often had feelings of awe and great spirituality just contemplating the universe. I imagine this awe is similar to what religious people feel when they claim to find God.

Sorry for the rambling.

Deus Ex

Mr. Loon wrote: »

Interesting. Any thoughts on what role hallucinogens may have had in evolution? The name escapes me but I recall seeing a video on some dude, that suggested in small doses, mushrooms provide more visual acuity, indicating that foraging animals would naturally eat them in order to better track down their pray, therefore becoming the stronger survivor. Obviously stronger doses have you tripping, but in my experiences with hallucinogens I've always had a phenomenal visual clarity, as well as "spiritual".

I imagine the natural human desire for a higher power, or spiritual aspect, led to the shaman's, and the use of hallucinogens to better connect with that spiritual side.

When I first fully embraced my atheism, I started studying science a bit more, and have often had feelings of awe and great spirituality just contemplating the universe. I imagine this awe is similar to what religious people feel when they claim to find God.

Sorry for the rambling.

No need for the apology. This is exactly the type of thing I'm interested in. I often get that feeling of awe you just described. I imagine it is what people of faith call god. It really is a spectacular feeling.

The problem for me is that it's hard to explain. Especially with people who have no experience with, or respect for, hallucinogens. They would prefer if I was just "off my head". Of course, I was. But it is something more than mere drug use, but obviously something real. It's an area of cognition begging to be understood

Deus Ex

Mr. Loon wrote: »

Interesting. Any thoughts on what role hallucinogens may have had in evolution?

Like you, I have seen/read things that fascinated me on the topic. But as is often the case, the names and places become lost.

Dades

Deus Ex wrote: »

But as is often the case, the names and places become lost.

That'll be the drugs.

Just say "no", kids!

Dr. Loon

There we go;
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6tsmg_mckenna-psychedelics-in-the-age-of_school%253Ffrom%253Drss
Terence Mc Kenna. In fairness, he just looks like a complete stoner, but he speaks quite well.

Dave!

Deus Ex wrote: »

No need for the apology. This is exactly the type of thing I'm interested in. I often get that feeling of awe you just described. I imagine it is what people of faith call god. It really is a spectacular feeling.

The problem for me is that it's hard to explain. Especially with people who have no experience with, or respect for, hallucinogens. They would prefer if I was just "off my head". Of course, I was. But it is something more than mere drug use, but obviously something real. It's an area of cognition begging to be understood

Not sure what area you're talking about here. Is the influence of hallucinogens on the brain not pretty well understood? Acting on the visual and auditory systems to create hallucinations, etc

Deus Ex

Dades wrote: »

That'll be the drugs.

Just say "no", kids!

There's always one!

Deus Ex

Dave! wrote: »

Not sure what area you're talking about here. Is the influence of hallucinogens on the brain not pretty well understood? Acting on the visual and auditory systems to create hallucinations, etc

I have read some articles on what you're talking about. However, I'm more interested in the long term effects of hallucinogens. I occasionally get profound feelings of numinosity. But It's been almost four years since I was last under the influence. This is an experience shared by many of my friends. I don't believe this type of behaviour is as well understood. If it is I'd love to know where I can read the studies.

strobe

Dave! wrote: »

Not sure what area you're talking about here. Is the influence of hallucinogens on the brain not pretty well understood? Acting on the visual and auditory systems to create hallucinations, etc

The method of action of psychedelics is well understood but the "spiritual" effect they can have on someone is obviously something that is difficult to quantify. As regards the potential therapeutic value of psychoactive drugs like mushrooms, lsd, Mdma ect it's effectively been made a no go area for research. Can't have people running around proving these drugs have benefits to humanity. They make mothers microwave thier babies, and turn promising college students into homeless schizo's and that's all we need to know about them.

Daftendirekt

Since this thread seems to be going in that general direction, I'll post the obligatory Bill Hicks vid now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_sWGgXggXM

Darlughda

Oh yikes dare I post in this forum again. Ye lot are scary. just please keep that mean Zillah away from me.

Anyway OP, I consider myself an atheist. But I believe in an afterlife insofar as there is no such thing as death and I reckon human existence is eternal, and yes I do believe faeries exist as a dimension that we do not perceive or comprehend just like when people die.

Now I gotta run before Zillah and his monsters get here...

Dr. Loon

Darlughda wrote: »

I do believe faeries exist as a dimension that we do not perceive or comprehend just like when people die.

Why?

Darlughda

Why do I believe it?

well I don't mean faeries as in the stuff of kids picture books, I suppose the best way I can describe it is non human spirits. Certains rocks, trees and water areas give me sense of an entity or entities that seem to be of a kind of spirit. I've even experienced it with fire.

I am less sensitive these days unfortunately to this but it is still there. I'm not a medium so I don't have any experience communicating with people who have died, but I can feel or slightly sense a kind of spirit world although I don't believe in a god as any kind of deity.

hiorta

Darlughda, I would agree with you. All things, even those we think of as inanimate, have some element of Life in them - whatever this might be called.
There seems to be a 'consciousness' involved, althiough it seems even lower on the scale than ours. How little we realise!

Dr. Loon

Darlughda wrote: »

Why do I believe it?

well I don't mean faeries as in the stuff of kids picture books, I suppose the best way I can describe it is non human spirits. Certains rocks, trees and water areas give me sense of an entity or entities that seem to be of a kind of spirit. I've even experienced it with fire.

I am less sensitive these days unfortunately to this but it is still there. I'm not a medium so I don't have any experience communicating with people who have died, but I can feel or slightly sense a kind of spirit world although I don't believe in a god as any kind of deity.

Interesting. Surely it's not much more of a leap for you to believe in a god then?

Ghosts are the one thing that throw me off a little. I'm sure when I was younger I had a ghost touch me. I've chalked it down to hallucination, even though I was not under the influence of any drugs, but it was very odd. It was just someone tapping me on the shoulder, but there was no one close to me to do it. This was in a house beside a grave yard renowned for odd happenings. I still can't explain it.

Goduznt Xzst

"Spirituality", not unlike the term "Philosophy", has taken on a bunch quasi-connotations in modern understanding.

I've heard Attenborough refer to having a "spiritual" experience while listening to classical music.

In the same way a person may say their "philosophy" is to drink plenty of water and eat their 5-a-day, they may also say that sitting on a cliff looking out at a sunset on the ocean is a "spiritual" experience for them.

People tend to refer to events that are emotively uplifting as being "spiritual"

Zillah

Dades wrote: »

That'll be the drugs.

Just say "no", kids!

Kids! Don't buy drugs!

Become a rock star and they give them to you for free!

Blackhorse Slim

Dr Stanislav Grof has does a lot of interesting work in this field, not sure how credible he is

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Grof

Deus Ex

hiorta wrote: »

Darlughda, I would agree with you. All things, even those we think of as inanimate, have some element of Life in them - whatever this might be called.
There seems to be a 'consciousness' involved, althiough it seems even lower on the scale than ours. How little we realise!

This is interesting, but wildly speculative. I hate to be the one to drop the E bomb in the middle of such a nice conversation, but do you have anything even approaching evidence for what you're suggesting?

hiorta

Objective evidence? No. In which case you should dismiss it.

Deus Ex

hiorta wrote: »

Objective evidence? No. In which case you should dismiss it.

The point I'm trying to make is that you use the words "how little we realise".

But something you have "realised" is based on your subjective opinion.

Frankly, that's not god enough.

"When something is counter-intuitive, it tends to place a special burden on the one who wants to argue for it."

mewso

As a software developer (stay with me) I have to list the requirements for an application I'm developing. Then I need to decide which requirements will be labelled "must have", "should have", "could have" and "would like to have". Sometimes I think that a lot of people get caught up so much in the "would like to have"s that they proclaim them facts.

Life's Requirements
Must Have - functioning body - brain, heart etc.
Should Have - healthy body, non-smoker, non-drinker, regular exercise
Could Have - long life, family, education, job
Would Like to Have - more meaning, inspiration, calm, guidance, spirituality, something greater than this

Feel free to add to the list for your own "development"

Tim Robbins

Deus Ex wrote: »

I can already feel the knives coming out with the mention of (in whispered tones) "spirituality".

The reason I ask is because I've been reading Sam Harris' The End of Faith, and it is this topic he deals with in the last chapter.

The word spirituality brings with it a lot of new-age baggage, but I find his take on it quiet interesting. He's really just concerned with the positive effects of meditation, and seems to wish it was more widely used. Its not an area I'm familiar with, but I am quite interested.

What's your opinion?

Read this OP.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Book-Atheist-Spirituality-Andre-Comte-Sponville/dp/0553819909/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267280699&sr=8-1

El_Duderino 09

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

"Spirituality", not unlike the term "Philosophy", has taken on a bunch quasi-connotations in modern understanding.

I've heard Attenborough refer to having a "spiritual" experience while listening to classical music.

In the same way a person may say their "philosophy" is to drink plenty of water and eat their 5-a-day, they may also say that sitting on a cliff looking out at a sunset on the ocean is a "spiritual" experience for them.

People tend to refer to events that are emotively uplifting as being "spiritual"

Hey guys, interesting discussion.
I couldn’t agree more. If people mean an emotively uplifting experience, why not call it that. I’m a hypnotherapist and I have seen people have all sorts of experiences while in trance. No drugs, nothing supernatural, just the mind being allowed to explore. I find people have some really beautiful experiences when they know they can just switch off and let the mind wander. I’ve helped people induce hallucinations and even regressions in both in therapeutic situations and just for fun. The accuracy of the memory is not relevant. For me the feelings experienced is what matters and the fact that there generated in the mind.

I’ve never tried to regress to a drugged state. I’ve wondered if I could though. I don’t see why not.
I
f it’s a personal experience not readily put into words, why not call it that. Instead we tend to lump lots of experiences into the category ’Spiritual’. Its just laziness to use the word because it has such a broad meaning, I think its meaningless.

DeBunny

Mr. Loon wrote: »

There we go;
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6tsmg_mckenna-psychedelics-in-the-age-of_school%253Ffrom%253Drss
Terence Mc Kenna. In fairness, he just looks like a complete stoner, but he speaks quite well.

strobe wrote: »

The method of action of psychedelics is well understood but the "spiritual" effect they can have on someone is obviously something that is difficult to quantify. As regards the potential therapeutic value of psychoactive drugs like mushrooms, lsd, Mdma ect it's effectively been made a no go area for research. Can't have people running around proving these drugs have benefits to humanity. They make mothers microwave thier babies, and turn promising college students into homeless schizo's and that's all we need to know about them.

On the topic of mushies and their roll in our development,I saw a documentary , a couple of years ago, about the birth of civilization. They were talking about the roll that trance induced hallucinations (they didn't mention mushies, but I'm pretty sure it was implied) had on the development of our imagination.

They said that without hallucinations it's likely that we never would have been able to hold a picture in our mind and transfer it to something like a cave wall. They then compared this with the case of a Turkish Muslim man who had been around horses his entire life but when he was shown a life size oil painting of a horse he couldn't make out what it was, as he had never been exposed to any representational images.

So the moral of the story? Being fooked off our tits gave birth to civilization!

If I find any relevant links I'll edit them in.