Is the 2009-2010 Irish Team better than 2007 Pre WC Irish Team

Co45

Does anyone else think that despite our GS win this Irish team has actually regressed since its late 2006, early 2007 form?
I know that sounds odd but put it this way. No one can deny we were very fortunate to win the Grandslam last year. Had Jones made that kick the opinions of the Irish team of 2009 would of been very different. A very poor England also ran us extremely close in that campaign.
When you compare that to 2007 (despite losing) we brushed aside all the teams in 6 Nations and were very unfortunate to lose to France. That same French side that beat us in the dying minutes of the 2007 6 Nations went on to beat NZ in the World Cup and ended up getting to the semi finals of the World Cup that year. The English side that we easily swatted aside ended up being World Cup finalists. In the Autumn tests in 2006 we played easily some of the best rugby I have ever seen as we put cricket scores on South Africa and Australia in terrible conditions. The backline was astonishingly good in those times.
Then the World Cup happened. I don't know what went wrong but I really don't think we ever recovered.
2008 was a disaster and then came 2009 where we were repeatedly told that the dark days are truly behind us. But were they really? We won the GS against a French side who didn't care, a VERY weak English side who ran us very close and a Welsh side who were unfortunate not to beat us. I was never impressed with the rugby we played and it was certainly nowhere near the quality we saw in the 2007 6 Nations. We beat the world champions in November of 2009 but the South African team we beat didn't win one game on their tour and was nowhere near playing as well as they had done in the Lions Tour.
So far this year I have been disappointed with our performance against Italy and very disappointed with our performance against France.

Maybe I am a pessimist, but I reckon we are still a long way behind the quality of rugby we played in the 2006 AIs and 2007 6N.

Theta

I dunno you have some valid points but I think a huge problem with the Irish team is phycological. They dont seem to be able to rile themselves up like other teams when it comes to it.

Also you should maybe adjust the poll to say they are no better or no worse.

Riskymove

Not sure really but I do wish we could have continued in the 07 6N form for a bit longer!! it was better to watch

As an example here is the Ireland team that beat England in 2007

Dempsey
Horgan
B O'Driscoll (capt)
D'Arcy
Hickie
O'Gara
Stringer
Horan
R Best
Hayes
O'Callaghan
O'Connell
S Easterby
D Wallace
Leamy


here is what is currently (probably) the first XV of Ireland

Kearney
Bowe
B O'Driscoll (capt)
D'Arcy
Fitzgerald
O'Gara/Sexton
TOL
Healy
Flannery
Hayes
O'Callaghan
O'Connell
Ferris
D Wallace
Heaslip


Its not really that different, although one or two are nearing end of career now

I think we have a better back row now but after that there is not much between them

we certainly played better rugby, scored more tries at the time but it didn't lead to a grand slam or championship, we also had the ELV period in the meantime which has affected how the game is played

the RWC07 period was just bizarre and I dont know if it will ever be explained fully how things could go so wrong in such a short space of tiem

Co45

Riskymove wrote: »

Its not really that different, although one or two are nearing end of career now

Whats funny is I think the first 15 we have now is actually far superior to what we had then. Yet we aren't playing as good rugby

Otacon

Co45 wrote: »

Maybe I am a pessimist, but I reckon we are still a long way behind the quality of rugby we played in the 2006 AIs and 2007 6N.

I don't think there can be any question that the quality of Irish rugby has fallen quite significantly, however, I believe this has been caused by rule-changes and differences in rule-interpretations.

How do the teams compare? TBH I think we are around the same level we were, however, we have a number of players who are quite young and have not shown their true potential yet.

Co45

Otacon wrote: »

How do the teams compare? TBH I think we are around the same level we were, however, we have a number of players who are quite young and have not shown their true potential yet.

I think we have much better players now than we had then but for whatever reason our pre 2007 WC team seemed a hell of a lot more competitive and playing far better quality rugby.
There was a time when we were handling like New Zealand!

peterako

Warning....statement showing my ignorance to follow:

I think we had more talent pre last WC. (Taking into account aging players etc)

BUT we are in a better place psychologically pre the up-coming WC.

Though....things could change quickly

stephen_n

Man for Man I would say the team is better now than then but the tactics and indeed the game is different. Look at the unbeaten run this team achieved before loosing in Paris, winning a GS and beating the world champions. Things that th )& team were not capeable of. Don't think you can compare the teams on style though as the game has changed alot in the last few years!

Co45

stephen_n wrote: »

winning a GS and beating the world champions. Things that th )& team were not capeable of.

Well heres the thing. I think the pre wc 2007 team would of strolled the 2009 GS and definitely beaten that S.A team.

I should probably add that I do agree man for man the current team is better but thats not reflected in how they are playing on the pitch and how they are competing against other top teams. I do think that the pre WC 2007 team playing as they were would beat our current team despite our current team having more talent.

smurphy29

I think it's a fascinating argument, and the pm raises a number of very valid points. The following I think are key:

1. The difference between the two teams in achievement was Vincent Clerc scoring that try in Croker and Stephen Jones not making that penalty in Cardiff - two incredibly marginal events. Eddie's team were very unlucky that day, and let's not forget he was without Bod and Strings, whereas the 09 team were stupendously lucky with injuries. People will say 'oh, Kidney is a winner, Eddie is a nearly man', but luck plays a factor - Alex Ferguson, for example, readily acknowledges this.

2. The game has changed so much even in those three years it's hard to compare. Eddie's 06-07 team were very easy on the eye, and today's mob could never rip Italy apart the way D'arcy, Hickie and co. did in Rome on the last day of the 6 Nations. But line breaks are like hens' teeth these days; D'arcy and BOD used to be able to make 40m breaks for fun, in today's game there's so little space in midfield that if the centre can get a half break and free his arms to get the ball away he has done brilliantly.

3. The '07 team, contrary to what the pm says, didn't destroy all comers that season. They were fortunate against both Wales and Scotland. Remember Easterby's near penalty try incident, when he tackled Czekaj (?) without the ball? And we were three points down against Scotland with 10 left on the clock, and playing like drains. We toughed it out much like we did last year that day.

4. I think on balance today's team shade it just by being a bit mentally tougher. The fact that so many greats are coming towards the end of their careers seems to have galvanised them a bit and they recognise the need to win trophies before it's too late. Plus, the Heieken Cup successes seem to have given the team a confidence boost.

JustinDee

Jeez, talk about fickle . . .

Sandwlch

Agree with most of the OP. Except I dont think we have regressed too much if at all. I certainly dont think we have advanced though.

Have long felt that the main difference was luck. In several cases luck went against Eddie's teams (even Gatland in that game in Scotland in the split season (2001?)), but it all went our way last year rather than having a superior team that was finally good enough to win. But thats sport.

It was striking that in the RTE Grand slam glory programme, the feeling described by the senior players was relief - not triumph. The telling point they were revealing was that they had several times felt close enough and good enough but had only been denied by the fates. This time when it went right for them, it wasnt that they had succeeded in reaching a higher level but that they finally had the reward that they already felt they deserved.

Podge_irl

I think it is interesting to note that the one game Ireland lost in the 6N, and it was bloody marginal at that, was a game where they were missing BOD. When you consider the ridiculously massive impact he had in Ireland's GS last season it puts it in context.

I think the teams are of a similar enough level, but I would put the 07 team slightly ahead. Let's not forget their bloody impressive wins against Aus and SA as well. That said, I think this team has the potential to be better, and it's only Kidney's second season.

anonymous_joe

Podge_irl wrote: »

I think it is interesting to note that the one game Ireland lost in the 6N, and it was bloody marginal at that, was a game where they were missing BOD. When you consider the ridiculously massive impact he had in Ireland's GS last season it puts it in context.

I think the teams are of a similar enough level, but I would put the 07 team slightly ahead. Let's not forget their bloody impressive wins against Aus and SA as well. That said, I think this team has the potential to be better, and it's only Kidney's second season.

I can see a few positions where we're definitely better now.

Our back row, for example, is far superior.

I'd say the 2007 centres were better. Back three is hard to call.

Geordan Murphy/Dempsey with Horgan and Hickie outside the full back is basically amazing. Kearney with Bowe and Fitz outside him likewise. The 2007 vintage had more pace though.

stephen_n

Co45 wrote: »

Well heres the thing. I think the pre wc 2007 team would of strolled the 2009 GS and definitely beaten that S.A team.

I should probably add that I do agree man for man the current team is better but thats not reflected in how they are playing on the pitch and how they are competing against other top teams. I do think that the pre WC 2007 team playing as they were would beat our current team despite our current team having more talent.

Yeah I can see where your going with that, but I think that the style of rugby the 07 team were playing would simply be ineffective against current defensive systems. The reason the standards have been do bad for the last few years in the 6N is not the lack of quality players but the strength of defenses. We won last year with England Second, Wales the year before with England second in other words the teams with the strongest defences won and the teams that played or tried to play expansive rugby lost!

Be an interesting game on the playstation palying the 07 team against this team lol

toomevara

For me the game itself has changed too much, in even so short a period, to make any kind of accurate comparison.

anonymous_joe

toomevara wrote: »

For me the game itself has changed too much, in even so short a period, to make any kind of accurate comparison.

Which is scary when you think about it.

Ciaran-Irl

No

Riskymove wrote: »

Dempsey
Horgan
B O'Driscoll (capt)
D'Arcy
Hickie
O'Gara
Stringer
Horan
R Best
Hayes
O'Callaghan
O'Connell
S Easterby
D Wallace
Leamy

vs

Kearney
Bowe
B O'Driscoll (capt)
D'Arcy
Fitzgerald
O'Gara/Sexton
TOL
Healy
Flannery
Hayes
O'Callaghan
O'Connell
Ferris
D Wallace
Heaslip

The difference is partly:

Eddie O Sullivan

vs

Declan Kidney

... And whatever you think about Mr. Kidney, I assume nobody can deny he is vastly more able and more suited to coaching this group of Irish players.

In terms of ability, the current team wins out. We also have more depth. If we get a few injuries, the squad is vastly superior. We can field the likes of Leamy, Jennings, Sean O'Brien in a back up back-row. We have Earls, Murphy, Trimble & Horgan on the fringes of the back line. We have more depth in every position that we had before, even though some problems (like tighthead) have not changed.

The current group has some of the same problems, like a lack of consistent top form in some areas. Both groups had this problem.

The only area where the older team wins out is that Key players, like Brian O'Driscoll & John Hayes, were younger.

The only position where I think the older team was vastly superior is scrum half. Stringer at his best was far better than Tomás O'Leary today.

danthefan

In my opinion Ireland of the Autumn 2006 is the best we've been this decade probably in terms of performance. However, that was for only a short amount of time, and you can't argue with 12 games unbeaten or whatever it was.

thebaz

beter now - if O'Leary could improve his passing, and we had a few decent scrummagers all would be well - props is still a massive problem , hopefully Healy , mcGrath and Maguire will be ready for 2011 - big congratulations to the bull - 100 caps and still going strong

profitius

No

Its slightly better now and the good news is it'll get better still in the next few years. Rugby is on the up and theres better coaching and more players playing the game. Over the past few seasons with Munster and Leinster and Ireland winning trophies it'll inspire young people to take up the game. We might not see the benefits of this for a few years yet but there will be benefits.


Slightly better now but the main difference is the squad dept. The squad is way better then it was back then.

shanagarry

No

Possibly what the '07 team had was experience? And in particular, experience of tough times. The only 'young' player in that line-up is probably Rory Best, most of the others were 27 or 28 at least. 8 of the 2010 team listed are 26 or younger (assuming Sexton is at 10) and haven't had much taste of bitter defeats, given the success of Munster and Leinster as well in recent years.

I would put the current squad as better as I think the young players can still get better and the old timers aren't done just yet, and also, as mentioned above, the quality in depth is greatly improved.

A Disgrace

I'd kill to have Hickie back... The mad thing is that he could still be playing if he wanted

Ciaran-Irl

No

A Disgrace wrote: »

I'd kill to have Hickie back... The mad thing is that he could still be playing if he wanted

So true. Huge pity.

ILBondo

No

2007 team

Dempsey - Kearney is just as good
Horgan- Bowe is better
B O'Driscoll (capt)
D'Arcy
Hickie- Fitzgerald has the potential to be just as good if not better
O'Gara- Sexton is Better
Stringer- O'Leary is weaker
Horan- Healy is just as good
R Best- Flannery slightly better
Hayes
O'Callaghan- more options now in the form of cullen
O'Connell
S Easterby- Ferris is better plus more options like McLaughlin
D Wallace-he still has it, and we have more cover in O'Brien
Leamy- Heaslip is better

Co45

ILBondo wrote: »

2007 team

Dempsey - Kearney is just as good
Horgan- Bowe is better
B O'Driscoll (capt)
D'Arcy
Hickie- Fitzgerald has the potential to be just as good if not better
O'Gara- Sexton is Better
Stringer- O'Leary is weaker
Horan- Healy is just as good
R Best- Flannery slightly better
Hayes
O'Callaghan- more options now in the form of cullen
O'Connell
S Easterby- Ferris is better plus more options like McLaughlin
D Wallace-he still has it, and we have more cover in O'Brien
Leamy- Heaslip is better

But Im not talking about individual players im talking about how the team was performing compared to our current one. I know this is strange because we have a GS now but I just feel our current team wouldn't of won the GS in 2007 and that the old team should have won it and were very unlucky. The current team were very lucky to have won the 2009 GS but our old team would of won it easily....if that makes sense...
Ideally I'd like our current crop of players trying to play the brand of rugby we played in 2006-2007. I just feel that since WC we havent truly recovered that supreme confidence we used to have. Lets not forget there was whispers of use being world cup winners before that WC. I reckon our current players could be up there with NZ if they believed in themselves enough to try start playing like that again.

Co45

O/T.. the current poll result on a thread talking about the 2007 6N is 43-13 in favour of the current team.... the exact scoreline we beat england in the 2007 6N

a sign for tomorrow?

profitius

No

Alot of people are saying we were unlucky in 07. I disagree. You make your own luck in sport. The difference between EOS and Kidney is Kidney fills players with belief. EOS although probably technically smarter then Kidney didn't understand how important the psychology of it all is. The irony is he done a psychology course if I remember correctly.

Co45 wrote: »

O/T.. the current poll result on a thread talking about the 2007 6N is 43-13 in favour of the current team.... the exact scoreline we beat england in the 2007 6N

a sign for tomorrow?

Hope it is!

Spiritoftheseventies

Current team is very much a team in transition. O Driscoll and a few others probably nearing the end of their careers. Would go for the 2007 team. The backs were just superb.

ShamoBuc

No

2007 team were better but current squad is better - more options and cover

LeeroyJones

as a XV theres improvements in some positions but in other departments perhaps we're weaker.

However what is certain is this squad is vastly superior to that in 2007.

If the 15 players who took the field against England that day in 2007 were able to play like that every match in the 07 World Cup we could have won it. But EOS flaw was that he never prepared a squad that could fill every position if the first choice was injured or lacked form.

Back then the only positions that stirred up debate really were at hooker (Fla-v-Best) and perhaps at 9 and 15.

Now, other than tighthead, we can slot somebody into nearly every position and it doesn't disrupt the team THAT much. Obviously if BOD for example is injured we miss him but we still have a backup.

Jemo

I think a key factor here is the style of defence having changed a lot. Now the majority of teams employ a well honed rush defence which makes line breaks and continuity much harder. It also means that making good ground and getting on the front foot is virtually impossible off slow ball.
Ireland of 06/07 played an attacking style which tended to overcome drift defenses quite easily but struggled when they were against a good press defence. Against south africa that year we won mainly because habana wasnt a 13 which offset their rush defence and we done well enough as a result.
Last year against France, we had much more success as they for some unknown reason used the drift defence and it resulted in an great contest with some nice line breaks. The team this year has the same ability but is playing against a vastly superior defensive system which has an adverse effect on their style of play.