Time and the nature of knowledge

Gary L

The perception of Time

‘Memory and prediction of the past and future states of matter.’

Linear time was something brought into existence with life, and first pondered by man. The sense that the universe, as it is now, is something separate from what it once was. It seems logical that we might somehow be able to go to this other place, the past. Every human has an innate sense of the passage of time, indicating that the sense was beneficial in our evolutionary history.

What does it mean then when we study the nature of matter and energy and we see that they can be neither created nor destroyed? Rather they exist in a constant state of flux and change. Existence it seems can be summed up as ‘motion’ and the movement of energy. Everything that ‘is’ is at some level moving, changing, growing or diminishing. In any one moment that you stop to look at it, you can grasp reality for what it is, the present moment, the current state of existence, everything that is and that cant be expressed in words. So my point is, do we put too much stock in the past and future?

‘Now’ is all that there is or ever will be. Eternity is in the present moment. The study of the past can only inform the future. What exists always exists, but is always different in shape. Experience can guide us but we can never know what is next, nor can we control it. We want to believe that the world can be figured out. It is a hardwired need for our perceptual model of the world to be certain. We fear the unknown because it’s absurd. It’s against our basic nature to believe that anything is possible.

It’s our higher nature that we can overcome our instincts through conscious thought. Embrace the great unknown, accept that your truths are all best guesses, that they need updating. We don’t know what life is about, or why we’re here. No one has ever known. All we can do as rational intelligent people is gather all the information that’s available to us and try to live well.

Time destroys that as a possibility. Time enshrines all the things that have been around the longest. Time suspects the new and stifles the perception of reality. Time has many things to tell us about how to live our lives, with its records and its customs and its laws. But all these things are just echoes of past minds grasping at ways to handle the unknown, and living in a different reality. If you want peace, don’t hold anything to be true, reject tradition, accept ignorance as a fundamental aspect of your nature and when you encounter others, realize that they always know things you don’t and vice versa.

Every human being alive in this moment is fundamentally unsure of how best to live. We can’t understand life. You may well be wrong about everything you believe. As difficult a concept as that is, it gives us the freedom to embrace life without it having to conform to us. What we can do is gather objective information and all the viewpoints of others and try to make our own sense of the world, but never convince ourselves that we are correct.

It is this rigidity in one’s perceptual model of the world that causes all conflict. Our views cant comfortably interlock while maintaining our individual beliefs that we are correct. It is the product of the ego, something not often discussed in the west. We don’t tend to discuss the things that we all do, because we’re all sure we’re right.

dentaku

Gary L wrote: »

‘Now’ is all that there is or ever will be. Eternity is in the present moment.

Yeah, I had that idea in school too, and I’m sure many others did. The past doesn’t exist, only our memory of it exists, which is fungible. The future doesn’t exist because it never happens. But so what? TBH I don’t think it’s a particularly insightful idea.

Gary L wrote: »

Experience can guide us but we can never know what is next, nor can we control it.

We can’t control the future entirely or with certainty, but we can influence it probabilistically. If I eat nothing but McDonalds, there is a high probability that I will be sick in the future.

Gary L wrote: »

We want to believe that the world can be figured out. It is a hardwired need for our perceptual model of the world to be certain.

I don’t think so. Some may desire the world to be certain, but it isn’t a need. Oxygen is a need. But as a race we will try to understand everything we can, sure.
Anyway...
I’m guessing that your general point here is that things will happen in the future that we can’t envisage or prepare for (“unknown unknowns” if you like) and that some people don’t understand that fundamental uncertainty while others are in denial. If so, I agree.

Gary L wrote: »

Embrace the great unknown, accept that your truths are all best guesses, that they need updating.

YES! Based on past experience (ie your data set) you hypothesize about how some aspect of the world works (you model the relationship). Eg Newton’s model of universal gravity. The model works well, but as time passes and the data set increases, new observations defy the model (I’m sure someone with a better understanding of physics can give examples). Now, the model needs to be updated, or, scrapped and a completely new model created. Eg Einstein’s general relativity.

So, our theories (our models) are not absolutely true, but relatively valid. As long as a model is better than the competition, it lives. Theories evolve, so there is no guarantee that they will always exist. Newton’s worked well, but Einstein’s was better, so Newton’s was discarded. In the future, Einstein's may (and probably will) be discarded. Each theory is better than the last, we progress.

Similarly, a theory cannot be proved true, but it can be proved false. No amount of confirming evidence can prove a theory will always be true (to think otherwise is the Confirmation Bias), but one observation can prove it false. This is ‘Science’ as described by Sir Karl Popper. (my understanding of physics and of Popper is poor, corrections are welcome)

Gary L wrote: »

If you want peace, don’t hold anything to be true, reject tradition, accept ignorance as a fundamental aspect of your nature and when you encounter others, realize that they always know things you don’t and vice versa.

Every human being alive in this moment is fundamentally unsure of how best to live. We can’t understand life. You may well be wrong about everything you believe. As difficult a concept as that is, it gives us the freedom to embrace life without it having to conform to us. What we can do is gather objective information and all the viewpoints of others and try to make our own sense of the world, but never convince ourselves that we are correct.

YES YES!! Unfortunately, your tirades in other forums show that you do not practice what you preach.

Cannibal Ox

Gary L wrote:

Rather they exist in a constant state of flux and change. Existence it seems can be summed up as ‘motion’ and the movement of energy. Everything that ‘is’ is at some level moving, changing, growing or diminishing.

I think that is in parts right, but:

Gary L wrote:

In any one moment that you stop to look at it, you can grasp reality for what it is, the present moment, the current state of existence, everything that is and that cant be expressed in words.

I'm not so sure about this.

If everything is moving, and in a constant state of movement and becoming, if we try to stop a thing, and try to isolate it from movement, and try to imagine it as not being in a state of constant becoming, and try to render it without motion I don't think it would work because you're saying everything is in movement, in which case it would be impossible to halt a thing and analyse it seperately of movement.

Which is why I would disagree with this:

Gary L wrote:

‘Now’ is all that there is or ever will be. Eternity is in the present moment.

There is no now if there is constant movement. The moment you utter the word now, now has become the past. Eternity can't exist within the present moment unless time doesn't exist.

Gary L wrote:

If you want peace, don’t hold anything to be true, reject tradition, accept ignorance as a fundamental aspect of your nature and when you encounter others, realize that they always know things you don’t and vice versa.

I don't think this works either, because you're basing your argument on time, and accepting that as true to make it, and than arguing that you can't hold anything to be true. Which doesn't make sense

Gary L

There is an apparent paradox but the movement is only obvious when time is a factor. If you attend to the present moment then you always see things as they are, in the current state, as opposed to recalling to what they were.

Cannibal Ox

I don't see how you can be outside of time, excluding a mystical force, because I think it is a constant, and any attempt to stand outside of it is going to fail. I suppose you're almost making claims that an individual can somehow Will themselves out of time, and that all sounds a bit Schopenhauerian to me It presumes that we have that kind of power, and I'm pretty sure we don't.

Basically, I think, if someone sits down, and convinces themselves that they can exist in the Now, that's great for them, but it isn't going to halt time. They will age, things will change, and movement will occur.

I like where you're trying to get at though, and I think you might like Jurgen Habermas and his idea of Communicative Action, because it deals with creating the possibilities for discourse that enables cooperation between people.

Edit: You might be interested in Henri Bergson's philosophical concept of time too.

espinolman

Gary L wrote: »

What does it mean then when we study the nature of matter and energy and we see that they can be neither created nor destroyed?

Get a mental image of a car , did you a mental picture of a car ? If you did get a mental image picture of a car then you have just created energy , matter and space .

Gary L

Oxless Cannibal wrote: »

I don't see how you can be outside of time, excluding a mystical force, because I think it is a constant, and any attempt to stand outside of it is going to fail. I suppose you're almost making claims that an individual can somehow Will themselves out of time, and that all sounds a bit Schopenhauerian to me It presumes that we have that kind of power, and I'm pretty sure we don't.

This really made me smile. It's not at all what I meant but its a brilliant read on it. All I mean is that its possible to have a different conceptual model of time in which your much more aware and conscious of each passing moment. If you investigate secular Buddhist philosophy you'll see they have well developed rational arguments and techniques for expanding consciousness.

espinolman wrote: »

Get a mental image of a car , did you a mental picture of a car ? If you did get a mental image picture of a car then you have just created energy , matter and space .

Well thats not accurate. You will only have used energy and released it again. It's a cyclical process its not linear. I think it would help you understand the idea better if you watched this scientific movie called mindwalk. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9107401959308808776&ei=5giLS8W3NMag-Ab6tKD0BA&q=mindwalk&hl=en#