Going through red lights

Ryaner

Basically how do you justify going through red lights? There is a set on my commute which are sensor only. So if I roll up on the bike while they are read and no cars come along, they won't change, ever. Been stuck behind two cars which hadn't rolled into the sensor box for a few minutes before.

My thinking on this is exactly the same as with a car and stuck lights, check that it is clear and roll through which would be inside the letter of the law.

I guess I'm wondering if there are many other light setups like this around? Has anyone ever had any issues from the Garda with going through them?

markpb

Ryaner wrote: »

Basically how do you justify going through red lights? There is a set on my commute which are sensor only. So if I roll up on the bike while they are read and no cars come along, they won't change, ever.

On a side note, some lights in Dublin are on *very* slow cycles so it might appear that they haven't registered your presence. The lights beside my apartment are on a 1m30 cycle which feels like a long time when there's no traffic coming in the other direction.

ROK ON

I think I have found 2sets of sensor lights.
Bottom of Kellystown Lane and Strawberry Beds into Lucan.
I wait until road is clear then proceed.

gimmeaminute

So if I roll up on the bike while they are read and no cars come along, they won't change, ever.

If you dismount, then jump up and down waving your arms wildly at various positions in the road, chances are you'll hit that sensor eventually. You have to be quick with your remount though!

While not necessarily safer than running a red light, it keeps you within the law which as we all know is more important that not being dead.

doozerie

The right turn at Yellow House in Rathfarnham is one of those. When the light is green for traffic going straight through the junction I cycle into the middle of the yellow box junction in the right turning "lane". From this position, even if there is no car behind you to trigger the right-turning light, there is usually an opportunity to turn right after the oncoming traffic gets a red light and before traffic coming from your right gets a green light.

I hate having to basically break a red light there, and it gets risky when oncoming traffic decides to break their red light so you have even less time to turn before traffic from the right gets a green, but other than wait for some right-turning traffic it is the only way to turn right there as a cyclist. Fortunately it is a busy junction so it is rare enough that the right turn light doesn't get triggered, but it does happen and I've seen it happen to cars waiting to turn right too that have been stranded in the yellow box. It is one of those junctions where a poorly implemented effort at minimising delays to traffic is given precedence over any safety concerns.

penexpers

I find that steel-framed bikes have no problems setting off the sensor to change the lights so I do not have this issue.

doozerie

I seem to remember too that the bridge over the N11 at the UCD entrance had a sensor too, for traffic turning right towards Stillorgan. A few years back I waited there for several sequences of light changes just to see if I got a green, and I didn't. I would hope it has changed since, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

As traffic planning stupidity goes, siting a traffic sensor which ignores bikes at the exit of a large educational institution deserves an award of its very own.

seamus

gimmeaminute wrote: »

If you dismount, then jump up and down waving your arms wildly at various positions in the road, chances are you'll hit that sensor eventually. You have to be quick with your remount though!

While not necessarily safer than running a red light, it keeps you within the law which as we all know is more important that not being dead.

Most such (infrared?) sensors have been replaced with induction loops which are basically magnetic sensors which trigger when a large piece of metal moves over them. Unfortunately a small lump of aluminium is unlikely to trigger these, and a carbon frame obviously won't trigger these, so you'll never get the lights unless a car comes up behind you.

Best to stick to the old method - move into the middle of the road and wait until the path is clear to turn right. If (all!) the lights go red while you are in the middle of the junction, then you have "control" of the junction and all other traffic must yield to you completing your turn.

This can be dodgy though where only arrows are in use and not plain old round green lights. Often the lights for traffic going straight turn red, but the oncoming traffic gets to keep their green light and keep on coming. Same rules apply though - keep your road position and then go when the path is clear - when the lights for oncoming traffic turn red, you have control of the junction and right-of-way over traffic coming from your right/left.

doozerie

penexpers wrote: »

I find that steel-framed bikes have no problems setting off the sensor to change the lights so I do not have this issue.

Both of the bikes that I use for commuting have steel frames, but neither bike triggers some of these sensors.

paddyduc

The sensors are usually underneath the road. There is a visible black rectangle on the road where they are fitted. They generally don't be close enough to the edge of the path to hit on a bike without moving out a bit.

gimmeaminute

seamus wrote: »

Most such (infrared?) sensors have been replaced with induction loops which are basically magnetic sensors which trigger when a large piece of metal moves over them.

Who knew? Everyone but me, I guess. This is why our children are turning to drink and drugs. Many a happy evening I spent as a teenager making the lights change in the deserted suburban streets of Dublin.

doozerie

seamus wrote: »

Same rules apply though - keep your road position and then go when the path is clear - when the lights for oncoming traffic turn red, you have control of the junction and right-of-way over traffic coming from your right/left.

Having right-of-way is a good point, and something that I had actually forgotten about. I've just checked the Rules of the Road again and it seems to be defined in there albeit it doesn't describe this exact scenario for a bike (that I can find). Unfortunately, I suspect many other people have forgotten the same thing or are simply unaware of it and may treat someone in middle of the junction in front of them when they get a green as completely in the wrong.

I vote for requiring road planners to cycle along the roads they are responsible every day for a month. It might be the only way for some of them to develop any kind of empathy for those they inflict their sometimes arbitrary decisions upon.

irishmotorist

There are 2 sets of these on my commute. There is nothing I can do about one of them but I'd say it's only about 3 or 4 times ever that I was waiting for a couple of minutes with no cars and I proceeded with caution when there were no cars in sight.
With my other one, there is a convenient pedestrian crossing with a button to press that I can reach without dismounting that stops the traffic I'm attempting to merge with and gives me a green light as part of the green man sequence.
If I was to be stopped by a Garda after going through the lights on my first example above, I'd be thinking the following:

• Damn - I was SURE I was being safe and had a good look up and down the road for traffic and any Gardai.
• Hands up - yes I did actually break the law.
• Surely, Garda, it's understandable in this case to have done what I did and having done so with genuine caution.

seamus

doozerie wrote: »

Having right-of-way is a good point, and something that I had actually forgotten about. I've just checked the Rules of the Road again and it seems to be defined in there albeit it doesn't describe this exact scenario for a bike (that I can find). Unfortunately, I suspect many other people have forgotten the same thing or are simply unaware of it and may treat someone in middle of the junction in front of them when they get a green as completely in the wrong.

In Dublin particularly, a lot of this kind of guesswork has been taken out of the hands of the motorist by filter lights and such. While it's great for traffic flow, if people fall out of practicing their knowledge, they'll lose it.

One example is offside -v- nearside turning at crossroads. Offside turning (where each vehicle turns behind the other) is actually the preferred method for negotiating a crossroads (the turning vehicle has more visibility), but most junctions are now designed in such a way that nearside turning is the only possible way to do it. Offside turning used to be quite common in Dublin (KCR is one I can think of), but I can't think of any public roads where they exist now.

I did an offside turn a few weeks ago on a small junction in an estate (no room for a nearside turn), and the other driver had a serious look of bemusement on his face. He'd probably never seen the manouver before.

Harrybelafonte

seamus wrote: »

In Dublin particularly, a lot of this kind of guesswork has been taken out of the hands of the motorist by filter lights and such. While it's great for traffic flow, if people fall out of practicing their knowledge, they'll lose it.

One example is offside -v- nearside turning at crossroads. Offside turning (where each vehicle turns behind the other) is actually the preferred method for negotiating a crossroads (the turning vehicle has more visibility), but most junctions are now designed in such a way that nearside turning is the only possible way to do it. Offside turning used to be quite common in Dublin (KCR is one I can think of), but I can't think of any public roads where they exist now.

I did an offside turn a few weeks ago on a small junction in an estate (no room for a nearside turn), and the other driver had a serious look of bemusement on his face. He'd probably never seen the manouver before.

You've hit nail on head there. I've stopped even attempting this manouvre cos no-one seems to know what I'm doing.

markpb

seamus wrote: »

I did an offside turn a few weeks ago on a small junction in an estate (no room for a nearside turn), and the other driver had a serious look of bemusement on his face. He'd probably never seen the manouver before.

I've stopped using offside turning too because drivers never understood what I was doing and acted as though I was blocking them from turning. Knowledge of the ROTR would be a fine thing.

GreeBo

seamus wrote: »

Offside turning used to be quite common in Dublin (KCR is one I can think of), but I can't think of any public roads where they exist now.

I get blown out of it whenever I try it here, also usually the other cars queue up right behind each other giving you no where to turn.


Back to bikes, if you are going to go to the bother of dismounting to jump and and down on a sensor, why not just wheel your bike across the road?

tomasrojo

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

You've hit nail on head there. I've stopped even attempting this manouvre cos no-one seems to know what I'm doing.

No, nobody seems to do the "cars turn behind each other" turn or even realise that it's a valid turn. I've seen people react with great anger when someone does try to do it.

As for the sensor-based red lights, I think that John Forester recommends to treat them as a Stop sign: so you can proceed with caution. A lot of caution though. If a light is never going to change for you, you can't be expected to stay there until the morning rush hour starts.

I've been stopped at a light, top of the queue, and the motorist behind is quite kindly hanging a little bit back, and after a few minutes I realise that it's a sensor-triggered light. Then I've had to try to signal them to come closer to trigger the light. They look very puzzled, alarmed even.

tomasrojo

Someone once told me that if you see the rectangle in the ground where the sensor lies (it's a bit of the tarmac that's been cut out and tarred back in), if you cycle along the side of it and the cut across the middle to the other side, it can trigger it. I've tried it a few times. It seems to work on some of them.

DirkVoodoo

How do people treat turning left onto a cycle lane. At the bottom of Westminster road there are lights, but people are quite impatient around these parts so I just treat the left turn as a yield since I'm only turning left onto an off road cycle path.

Ryaner

markpb wrote: »

On a side note, some lights in Dublin are on *very* slow cycles so it might appear that they haven't registered your presence. The lights beside my apartment are on a 1m30 cycle which feels like a long time when there's no traffic coming in the other direction.

These ones are def done by sensors. Big boxes are visible and the morning I was stuck in the line of traffic behind a car that didn't go on, they did 3 complete cycles for all junctions except this filter before I gave up and went around them followed by the rest of the cars.

irishmotorist wrote: »

If I was to be stopped by a Garda after going through the lights on my first example above, I'd be thinking the following:

• Damn - I was SURE I was being safe and had a good look up and down the road for traffic and any Gardai.
• Hands up - yes I did actually break the law.
• Surely, Garda, it's understandable in this case to have done what I did and having done so with genuine caution.

This is my thinking except for the breaking the law part. I don't see it as breaking the law. More posing the question as the Garda are pretty much living on this road these days with check points. Last thing I want is an argument with the armed response unit :rolleyes:

CramCycle

Like it or not, offside turning is actually the way you are meant to turn at a crossroads (if by offside you mean that as you take the turn you pass the driver with him on your right) and you will fail your driving test if you do it the other way. It seems unnatural to do it but this is what I was informed by an instructor and a Garda car. As for the Red Lights, they are technically just a Stop sign. If you stop and put at least one foot on the ground (for bikes) you are entitled to move through the junction, provided you can see clearly in all directions of all possible incoming traffic to the junction. If you can't see all incoming roads clearly though you cannot move through without a green or amber light. Thats what you say to a Garda and you should be fine obviously it's their opinion of whether you can clearly see all approaching roads to the junction (obviously if there are pedestrians around you can't go through it either). Clearly, if you can't see any traffic or pedestrians that means they're shouldn't be any Gardaí around anyway.

CramCycle

Obviously I meant that when you can see in all directions, you can also see that they are completely clear, if there is traffic there, near you or not, you do not move. In case I wasn't clear.

Oink

CramCycle wrote: »

As for the Red Lights, they are technically just a Stop sign. If you stop and put at least one foot on the ground (for bikes) you are entitled to move through the junction, provided you can see clearly in all directions of all possible incoming traffic to the junction.

:eek::eek::eek: Whaaaaa? Seriously? *googles rules of the road...*

tomasrojo

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

How do people treat turning left onto a cycle lane. At the bottom of Westminster road there are lights, but people are quite impatient around these parts so I just treat the left turn as a yield since I'm only turning left onto an off road cycle path.

Do you get onto the off-road lane by using a cycle lane that goes off-road just before the traffic light? I imagine it's essentially a yield in that case. (I don't think I know Westminster road.)

tomasrojo

Oink wrote: »

:eek::eek::eek: Whaaaaa? Seriously? *googles rules of the road...*

Yeah, I doubt that red lights are equivalent to a Stop sign, except where they're stuck permanently on red. I presume that's what Cramcycle meant.

DirkVoodoo

tomasrojo wrote: »

Do you get onto the off-road lane by using a cycle lane that goes off-road just before the traffic light? I imagine it's essentially a yield in that case. (I don't think I know Westminster road.)

I attached a google map: Link

It goes back onto the road where it meets the junction, so when i turn left it is off road again. Oh yes, I always treat it as a yield, I wouldn't fly down and risk knocking into a pedestrian or cyclist.

Oink

OK, is my google-fu failing me? All I find is :

"A red light means "stop". If the light is red as you approach it, you must not go beyond the stop line at that light or, if there is no stop line, beyond the light."

All I want to hear is that I do NOT have to wait for nothing at a red line if there is no one coming...

CramCycle

I was stopped at a red light one night outside Spar on Bird Avenue with a squad car behind me. He got out of the car and informed me that in this scenario I was clear to move through the light. Before anyone says it, he did not instruct me to (I knew I'd have to then), I asked him and he said no, I'm not asking I'm just informing you, and he told me all I wrote in my previous post. Honestly I was only certain about the offside turning but the rest was information straight from a Garda and I have heard of similar stories from my car driving friends. I see what the rules of the road says I'm just telling you what the Gardaí are saying in these situations. I don't run red lights myself, I usually knock the sensor by turning my bike sideways over the sensor squares where necessary. Like I said, straight from the horses (or pigs in this case) mouth (no offence intended).

droidus

Theres on of these on Mary's Lane coming onto Church St. Driving there late one night I had to reverse and drive around the car in front to activate the sensor as he'd stopped too far from the lights.

blorg

tomasrojo wrote: »

Yeah, I doubt that red lights are equivalent to a Stop sign, except where they're stuck permanently on red. I presume that's what Cramcycle meant.

I don't think there is any legal basis for that claim whether stuck or not. Gardaí make stuff all the time, doesn't mean it is the law. They are generally reasonable people who use common sense though, that is probably where it was coming from, e.g. "I'm not telling you it is legal but it makes sense in the circumstances."

S.I. No. 182/1997: ROAD TRAFFIC (TRAFFIC AND PARKING) REGULATIONS, 1997 wrote:

30. (1) Where traffic sign number RTS 00I, RTS 002, RTS 003 or RTS 004 (referred to in these Regulations as traffic lights) is provided, a person shall not drive a vehicle past the traffic lights, or past traffic sign number RRM 017 [stop line] where such sign is provided in association with the traffic lights when the red lamp of the traffic light is illuminated.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html

There are earlier laws that say essentially the same thing, that is just the most recent one I can find. The only exception is you can proceed on a red if there is a filter green, in the direction of the filter.

Amazingly, you MUST also stop on amber "save when the vehicle is so close to the traffic lights that it cannot safely be stopped." Never knew that, I thought it meant "accelerate."

seamus

blorg wrote: »

Never knew that, I thought it meant "accelerate."

Or, "If you don't hurry the fnck up, you're going to have to stop", as an inebriated mate once said to an unamused Garda. (said mate was a passenger not the driver :eek:)

DirkVoodoo

blorg wrote: »

I don't think there is any legal basis for that claim whether stuck or not. Gardaí make stuff all the time, doesn't mean it is the law.

A garda told me to cycle on the footpath in Donnybrook for my own safety. I'm pretty sure he wasn't employing any legal basis and making something up there

CramCycle

Fair enough, me and a few workmates were out in town one night, and after a good few beers, a co-worker, who was pretty inebriated, was told to get on his bike and get himself home "for his own safety" (he was walking it out as he really couldn't cycle).
As for the Gardaí in Donnybrook, you would not have been braking the law as you were instructed to do so and you would have been "failing to obey the garda instructions" which is a chargeable offence. Not just on the road but i any situation within the 26 counties (within reason I'm sure).
I'm not sure how the incident with my friend would have been resolved if he were found on his bike by another squad up the road.

eightyfish

If its a straight road and pedestrian crossing lights are red, but there are no pedestrians, I go on. For any other red lights, I stop.

The only other category is coming upon a red light when the lead car is being driven by George Hook. In that case, I make a big deal of noticing the red and stop right in front of his car. Then I forget to notice the light go back to green for at least five minutes so he can get a good mental picture.

Blowfish

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

A garda told me to cycle on the footpath in Donnybrook for my own safety. I'm pretty sure he wasn't employing any legal basis and making something up there

Similarly, there were two yesterday on the quays merrily going about their patrol, while marching straight down the middle of the off road cycle lane.