National Masters & Intermediate XC, Boyle - Distances?

Condo131

Anyone else here run in Boyle yesterday? What distance did you run?

I ran in the masters 7k XC yesterday and was disappointed to find, after finishing, that the distance was only 5.25k. We had one 1k lap and four 1.5k laps. I made the 1k lap as approx. 1.127k, reasonably close, but each of the 1.5k laps were only 1.11k.

My usual complaint with XC is that the distances are longer than stated, but yesterday was the first time I've found the distance to be considerably shorter than normal - it was approx. 25% under.

These days measuring XC isn't exactly hard - every second person has a GPS device of some sort - I have several, so there is absolutely *NO EXCUSE* for getting the distance in a National Championship wrong by such a margin - 1.75k short!!

I didn't get any feedback on the Intermediate but I reckon that the mens was actually 7.79k, instead of 10k.

Photos from Womens Masters HERE

Were you there and notice any of this?

Seres

think robinph posted something in relation to this in the 'The Boards AC team ' thread , he said that intermediate mens measured 4.6miles for the 10k ???! , i did the inter women but didnt wear my gps so cant really comment on if distance was accurate , find it hard to judge distances with XC .

TheRoadRunner

Sounds right. I heard all races were short. Was on Clonliffe website earlier and they reckon mens intermediate was 7.5K. A bit disappointing considering the fall out from the underage championships and subsequent recommendations made a few weeks back in Colraine.

brutes1

Yeah ran inters, it was approx 2k short by all accounts, was not really relevant where i was in the field but would have certainly picked up 5/6 spots with another lap, as the longer the better for me. Some of the lads higher up were fuming though, particularly those from a marathon background.
Hard to believe it wasnt measured correctly, or should there simply have been another lap??! Hopefully itll be right for the Phoenix Park.

surfjunky

Just posted about this in the event section ...
Distance was well short though, I'd paced myself for a 10k but I'd say it was 2 if not 3k short. Bit of confusion too regarding how many big laps were required, one official was calling out 7 more laps after the first, which wasn't accurate. To be honest though it didn't make too much difference to me as I was just hanging on for dear life after the first two laps. That long slow uphill was a killer but enjoyed bailing down the other side! That activity centre was great for a pre-race performance enhancing coffee! Glorious location overlooking the lakes. Some good pics of race on racepix365 http://www.racepix.com/National-Inte...acephotos/221/

by the way the Leinster Senior the week before was well short too

bo-sco

I had the race as 7.5k.
The "long" lap was just short of 1.1k.

I'm really annoyed about it. I was all set for 10k and would have suited me better. It didn't become clear until half way through the race how long exactly was left as officials were calling conflicting remaining laps the first few times round.

It beggars belief how an 1100m lap can be measured as 1500m.

T runner

Condo131 wrote: »

Anyone else here run in Boyle yesterday? What distance did you run?

I ran in the masters 7k XC yesterday and was disappointed to find, after finishing, that the distance was only 5.25k. We had one 1k lap and four 1.5k laps. I made the 1k lap as approx. 1.127k, reasonably close, but each of the 1.5k laps were only 1.11k.

My usual complaint with XC is that the distances are longer than stated, but yesterday was the first time I've found the distance to be considerably shorter than normal - it was approx. 25% under.

These days measuring XC isn't exactly hard - every second person has a GPS device of some sort - I have several, so there is absolutely *NO EXCUSE* for getting the distance in a National Championship wrong by such a margin - 1.75k short!!

I didn't get any feedback on the Intermediate but I reckon that the mens was actually 7.79k, instead of 10k.

Photos from Womens Masters HERE

Were you there and notice any of this?

Yep, 6 "big" laps for the Masters men and 9 bigs for the intermediate would have been fine.

Im guessing its a very old guard who run these races: no current runners or GPSs.

Lap Distances may be from memory or based on previous races (with badly measured laps)

Edit:Just read that North Roscommon AC were hosting also. Who knows.

shels4ever

brutes1 wrote: »

Yeah ran inters, it was approx 2k short by all accounts, was not really relevant where i was in the field but would have certainly picked up 5/6 spots with another lap, as the longer the better for me. Some of the lads higher up were fuming though, particularly those from a marathon background.
Hard to believe it wasnt measured correctly, or should there simply have been another lap??! Hopefully itll be right for the Phoenix Park.

2 k short is huge , dont think i've ever run an xc race that was short by that amount, it totally changes the race..

little off topic I was in phenoix park on Sat and the coure was been measured.

Hard Worker

Both Womens races ran 2 full laps. The 2 laps came to 2.9K for a 4K race. That full lap was meant to be 2K. If the men had turned right at the bottom of the hill and added the extra bit of a loop, the lap would have been 1455 metres. One small lap and 6 of those big laps would have left it close to 10K for the Intermediate. One small lap and 3 big laps would have left it quite close to 7K for the mens Masters. One small lap and 2 big laps would have come close to the 4K for both womens races.
Somebody messed up somewhere. For me, the annoying thing was that it was pointed out to officials after the first race and nothing changed for the other three races.

Seres

Hard Worker wrote: »

Both Womens races ran 2 full laps. The 2 laps came to 2.9K for a 4K race. That full lap was meant to be 2K. If the men had turned right at the bottom of the hill and added the extra bit of a loop, the lap would have been 1455 metres. One small lap and 6 of those big laps would have left it close to 10K for the Intermediate. One small lap and 3 big laps would have left it quite close to 7K for the mens Masters. One small lap and 2 big laps would have come close to the 4K for both womens races.
Somebody messed up somewhere. For me, the annoying thing was that it was pointed out to officials after the first race and nothing changed for the other three races.

i was in the park the day before and they were putting down the markers , they said they had loops of 200m, 500m , 800m and 1k loops , dont know how many of those were used , i was told the day before that the women inter had two big laps , maybe there were too many loops or something?!

Hard Worker

It's a pity about the inaccurate distances. However, everything else about the venue was excellent. Free parking beside the course, changing rooms and facilities and a beautiful course.

Lex Luther

Seres wrote: »

i was in the park the day before and they were putting down the markers , they said they had loops of 200m, 500m , 800m and 1k loops , dont know how many of those were used , i was told the day before that the women inter had two big laps , maybe there were too many loops or something?!

to be honest the whole thing sounds completely loopy !

Stupid_Private

Hard Worker wrote: »

It's a pity about the inaccurate distances. However, everything else about the venue was excellent. Free parking beside the course, changing rooms and facilities and a beautiful course.

Where were these changing rooms you talk of? The door that said "Changing Room/Toilet" was actually just a toilet... 6/8 showers for the hundreds that took part wasn't up to scratch in my opinion. They had it right for the National Novice - large enough changing rooms for a couple of hundred and 40+ showers (that was just the men's changing area). Free parking there as well.

I really don't believe somewhere should be allowed host a National event if they can't provide adequate facilities for the numbers taking part.

Peterx

Stupid_Private wrote: »

I really don't believe somewhere should be allowed host a National event if they can't provide adequate facilities for the numbers taking part.

How many clubs want it?
It sounds like a huge loss making pain in the back to organise.

mrak

Peterx wrote: »

How many clubs want it?
It sounds like a huge loss making pain in the back to organise.

You said it. Hosting something like this is something you might do .. once. Fair play to any club that puts their hands up to host one of these and they are due a lot of slack. Coleraine had the best facilities I have seen for any event.. ever. Not many places will compare. I've done plenty of cross countries with nothing but a cold outdoor tap to wash off with so Boyle wasn't bad.

jailhouse_dave

mrak wrote: »

You said it. Hosting something like this is something you might do .. once. Fair play to any club that puts their hands up to host one of these and they are due a lot of slack. Coleraine had the best facilities I have seen for any event.. ever. Not many places will compare. I've done plenty of cross countries with nothing but a cold outdoor tap to wash off with so Boyle wasn't bad.

+1

Stupid_Private

Anyone know how long an appeal on the results generally takes? I'm not the one querying them - just want to see them!

meathcountysec

Not too long apparently. Results are here:

http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/?page_id=160

meathcountysec

[removes foot from mouth and says]

Just noticed Inter Men results not up so ignore me:o

[replaces foot in mouth]

Condo131

Videos from Masters, courtesy of Eagle AC

Masters women
Masters men - no sound - our camera man will try to upload again tomorrow.

jailhouse_dave

anyone got the results of the intermediate mens? not on the AAI site, emailed them about it and no response.

brutes1

Dunno, mention above of an appeal may be the issue??. Maybe we will have to rerun it over 10k??!!....Very late coming through..

Stupid_Private

I read on the City of Derry AC website (I was really searching for the results) that the Clare county board have an appeal in over the county positions. Makes me wish I hung around them extra minutes just to get a swatch at them on Sunday...

robroy1234

First of all fellas, the course was accurate, but at the point of turning left we were directed right. After 500m from the start was the tape cutting across the course which from what I though meant that we were supposed to turn right at that point. Everyone else hopped over the tape and continued running the wrong way. Unfortunately, I went from being in the lead back to about 20th and then spent the rest of race trying to catch up. The course would have been accurate if the officials manning the positions were in the right place, but I think that the officials were themselves confused with the layout of the course (G1-G2-G3 etc), we of course missed out G5.
Also how long does it take to sort out the results. Excel spreadsheet does it quicker so what was the inordinate delay?

Packieenright

Who cares about the distance, it's cross country, all that matters is your position. So just get out and run it and stop pussing. I'm not complaining about having run 7.5 k instead of 10k, means you get out of there earlier. The only time the distance or time you ran matters is on the track - coz that is accurate. Even road races - you can't trust most of them either with topography and all (unless they're IAAF approved which nothing in Ireland is to the best of my knowledge). And I think North Roscommon AC did a super job of hosting it for such a rural club. Whether there are showers or not at a cross country is just an added bonus.

surfjunky

results up now. in hard to download format http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/?page_id=160

Packieenright

And don't rely on GPS's or other such gadgetry for accuracy, the only way to measure these courses with is a trundle wheel. And I'm guessing that the club didn't have one.

echat

The race distances for cross-country need to be broadly correct, for a 10 km race it should be within 500m either way with the adjustment made so as to have appropriate start and finish points. Ideally the race organisers could give the race distances beforehand to within 100m accuracy indicating whether it will be 10,000m or 9,700m or 10,200m etc.

To suggest that a race scheduled as 10,000m is okay as 7,500m is ridiculous. Athletes running the race will be pacing themselves based on a 31-33 minutes winning time not for 24 minutes. How can you regard it as fair to the athletes that the women's masters race over 4,000m was won in 10 minutes? I am sure there were athletes in the race pacing themselves for 16 plus minutes who lost places towards the finish because they were expecting another lap.

Unfortunately another assessment by AAI is needed to determine what went wrong at Lough Key Forest Park. Part of this assessment could be whether race routes have become too complex requiring too much marking and too difficult marshalling.

Condo131

echat wrote: »

The race distances for cross-country need to be broadly correct, for a 10 km race it should be within 500m either way with the adjustment made so as to have appropriate start and finish points. Ideally the race organisers could give the race distances beforehand to within 100m accuracy indicating whether it will be 10,000m or 9,700m or 10,200m etc.

Nobody expects XC distances to be accurate, but being out by 25% beggars belief. GPS devices aren't accurate enough for road measurement, but they certainly are for XC. I'd be *extremely* surprised if any club couldn't lay their hands on some GPS device.

echat wrote: »

To suggest that a race scheduled as 10,000m is okay as 7,500m is ridiculous. Athletes running the race will be pacing themselves based on a 31-33 minutes winning time not for 24 minutes. How can you regard it as fair to the athletes that the women's masters race over 4,000m was won in 10 minutes? I am sure there were athletes in the race pacing themselves for 16 plus minutes who lost places towards the finish because they were expecting another lap.

Well put.

echat wrote: »

Unfortunately another assessment by AAI is needed to determine what went wrong at Lough Key Forest Park. Part of this assessment could be whether race routes have become too complex requiring too much marking and too difficult marshalling.

Some of the main contributing factors were the amateurish map and confusing marks, neither of which bore any resemblance to reality.

Compare:
AAI course map
Sportstracks track run - National Masters Men