Craig Barrett interview on Matt Cooper

Welease

http://audio.todayfm.com/files/craigbarrett-1.wma

Worth listening to...

Barrett is the former CEO of Intel. He was a big supporter of Ireland and obviously part of the reason they located here. He attended the Farmleigh forum last September..

Some interesting (non political) thoughts on our "average" education system, value add, and prospects for Ireland going forward with regards to competitiveness.

I love his response to the "race to the bottom arguement".. we need to "race to the top", if we want to be paid 3-4x other countries we need to arm ourselves with the capability to deliver 3-4x times the value of those countries.. Have we every seen our leaders or unions drive for that?

dunsandin

I think Mr Barrett was being polite, he is a very sharp man, a consumate diplomat. Of the many reasons to locate here, only one held through to the present. Quite damning I'd say. If the money so easily found for the banks and developers was as easily found for our schools and colleges, we would be a lot stronger. A bit like having an alcoholic husband who can always find the money for drink, but food and home come a poor second.

Welease

dunsandin wrote: »

I think Mr Barrett was being polite, he is a very sharp man, a consumate diplomat. Of the many reasons to locate here, only one held through to the present. Quite damning I'd say. If the money so easily found for the banks and developers was as easily found for our schools and colleges, we would be a lot stronger. A bit like having an alcoholic husband who can always find the money for drink, but food and home come a poor second.

Absolutely!!!

Some very sobering thoughts about Ireland going forward. When you read a lot of the back and forth posted on this board, the vast majority really misses the point (by a long way).

On the schools though.. it's not a matter of more funding.. as he said, our education system is average at best.. We don't have subject matter experts teaching maths and science. So no wonder we are lacking. The best teachers should be retained and cherished, those who fall short need to be removed.. Have we ever gotten rid of a bad teacher?

The_Honeybadger

Welease wrote: »

Absolutely!!!

Some very sobering thoughts about Ireland going forward. When you read a lot of the back and forth posted on this board, the vast majority really misses the point (by a long way).

On the schools though.. it's not a matter of more funding.. as he said, our education system is average at best.. We don't have subject matter experts teaching maths and science. So no wonder we are lacking. The best teachers should be retained and cherished, those who fall short need to be removed.. Have we ever gotten rid of a bad teacher?

We have, secondary teachers are put on part-time temporary contracts to begin with and these are not renewed if they don't cut the mustard. I agree that our education system is average at best. I left school in 99 and didn't even know how to turn on a computer at that stage, outrageous! I'm sure things have improved since then but not as much as they should have I suspect. The teaching of Maths / Science is in the news lately, and it appears we are really lacking in this area too. The problem is that investing in education is a long term investment, it is of no immediate benefit to a political party facing an election within a few short years, and that is the root cause of many of our failings in other areas as well.

ei.sdraob

yes i posted in previous thread a quote by himself showing that out of 14 reasons to come to Ireland only 1 still stands, corpo tax

and the likes of SF want to raise that too :eek:

mickeyk wrote: »

We have, secondary teachers are put on part-time temporary contracts to begin with and these are not renewed if they don't cut the mustard. I agree that our education system is average at best. I left school in 99 and didn't even know how to turn on a computer at that stage, outrageous! I'm sure things have improved since then but not as much as they should have I suspect. The teaching of Maths / Science is in the news lately, and it appears we are really lacking in this area too. The problem is that investing in education is a long term investment, it is of no immediate benefit to a political party facing an election within a few short years, and that is the root cause of many of our failings in other areas as well.

wasnt it not quoted in previous thread by someone on whole debate that only 15% of the PS workers are on temp contracts

the rest literally cant bet removed (i would really love to see stats as too how many people on full time contract were let go)

so a better question when was last time someone with full contract in PS got fired for being incompetent, and for that matter not receive a generous golden handshake

just look at the likes of odea this week getting a nice handshake

or couglan who still has a job and will get a cosy pension on top for doing a great job at securing jobs for the country

in fact looking at CSO stats this startling table spring to mind

during the worst recession in this country the number of public workers has GROWN while over 100K people lost their jobs in private sector

Taxipete29

ei.sdraob wrote: »

yes i posted in previous thread a quote by himself showing that out of 14 reasons to come to Ireland only 1 still stands, corpo tax

and the likes of SF want to raise that too :eek:




wasnt it not quoted in previous thread by someone on whole debate that only 15% of the PS workers are on temp contracts

the rest literally cant bet removed (i would really love to see stats as too how many people on full time contract were let go)

so a better question when was last time someone with full contract in PS got fired for being incompetent, and for that matter not receive a generous golden handshake

just look at the likes of odea this week getting a nice handshake

or couglan who still has a job and will get a cosy pension on top for doing a great job at securing jobs for the country

in fact looking at CSO stats this startling table spring to mind

during the worst recession in this country the number of public workers has GROWN while over 100K people lost their jobs in private sector

Talk about trying to mislead people. The recruitment ban in the PS came into operation in Jan 2009 and the figures show a drop since Q4 2008. How the hell that is the numbers going up??

The_Honeybadger

ei.sdraob wrote: »

wasnt it not quoted in previous thread by someone on whole debate that only 15% of the PS workers are on temp contracts

the rest literally cant bet removed (i would really love to see stats as too how many people on full time contract were let go)

so a better question when was last time someone with full contract in PS got fired for being incompetent, and for that matter not receive a generous golden handshake

I was responding to a question about teachers, my point being that if they are not very good at teaching, or are unable to control the class, they will be found out early in their careers and should not have their contracts renewed. I believe from anecdotal evidence (I am friendly with alot of teachers) it is not uncommon for teachers to be let go in this way, perhaps a teacher on here could clarify whether this happens alot? I know permanent staff cannot be fired in most cases and that is simply wrong. But if the system is used properly they should never get a permanent position in the first place, unless they are up to the job.

EDIT: Apologies OP gone way off topic. This is a matter for another thread

ei.sdraob

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Talk about trying to mislead people. The recruitment ban in the PS came into operation in Jan 2009 and the figures show a drop since Q4 2008. How the hell that is the numbers going up??

you are right that table is not up to date

heres a more recent one

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/current/psempearn.pdf





this is very interesting

A total of 360,900 people were employed in the Public Sector in September 2009
compared to 369,100 in September 2008, a decrease of 8,200. This compares to a
decrease of 2,700 in the year to June 2009. In the year to September 2009
employment in Regional Bodies fell from 40,400 to 37,000, a decrease of 3,400. In
the same period there were 1,200 fewer people employed in the Civil Service
where numbers dropped to 38,100 in September 2009. Employment in the Health
Sector fell to 110,200 in the year to September 2009, a drop of 600. Employment in
An Garda Síochána rose by 500 from 14,200 in September 2008 to 14,700 in
September 2009.


In the four years to September 2009, employment in the Public Sector rose by
17,300 to 360,900. Employment in the Education Sector increased from 84,700 to
97,200, an increase of 12,500. Employment in An Garda Síochána for the same
period rose by 2,400 from 12,300 to 14,700, reflecting the level of recruitment to
that body. Employment in the Health Sector increased from 101,500 to 110,200,
an increase of 8,700*. From September 2005 to September 2009 employment in
the Semi-State Sector fell from 57,400 to 52,300, a decrease of 5,100. This is due
in part to the privatisation of some companies. Employment in the Regional
Bodies decreased from 38,200 to 37,000, a drop of 1,200.

anyways lets not go offtopic


to get back in thread, what should be done to make it more attractive again to bring companies like Intel into Ireland, and for that matter holdon to existing lot and make sure they dont do a Dell on it
needless to say the recent Ryanair debacle has shown that theres no hope for enterprise in this country while FF are in power

.

View

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Talk about trying to mislead people. The recruitment ban in the PS came into operation in Jan 2009 and the figures show a drop since Q4 2008. How the hell that is the numbers going up??

ei.sdraob's point is still valid. The table shows the number of Public Sector workers is higher at the end of the time period - even with the recruitment ban - than it was at the start. Given that the chasm between the state's income and expenditure started to open up in mid 2007, that means there was 6 quarters during which recruitment continued despite the state's increasing borrowing.

Also, given the state's income has fallen back to the level of 2003 or 2004, the valid figure for comparasion should probably be the number of Public Servants then not the figure from Q1 2008.

AlekSmart

Needless to say the recent Ryanair debacle has shown that theres no hope for enterprise in this country while FF are in power

Absolutely !

The Ryanair/Hangar 6 debacle is showing to all and sundry just what skills are lacking WITHIN the Irish Government.

Now that the Numbers are slowly becoming public knowledge we see a vast purpose built (now empty) Heavy-Maintenance facility being sub let to Aer Lingus at a still secret rent in order to be partially utilized for LIGHT Maintenance.

Some 98 skilled positions were maintained in the process.

Ryanair offer to take the same facility at market rates,prior to the original occupier vacating it,and to maintain 500 skilled positions employed on the HEAVY maintenance tasks the facility was designed and built for.

Yet we have seen nothing from any of the relevant authorities,The Government,The DAA or the IDA to address the BASIC issues contained herein.

Instead we have all of these agencies introducing totally irrelevant legalese in relation to Lease`s and Property Rights which were never part of the central issue to begin with.

All of this displays to me an inbuilt inability (disability?) to deal with commercial issues at any level,something which assumes even greater pathos when we learn of the DAA CX`s salary package of some €680,000 pa.

Quite what a successful foreign businessman such as Craig Barrett would make of this stuff is perhaps best left unsaid.

Welease

mickeyk wrote: »

We have, secondary teachers are put on part-time temporary contracts to begin with and these are not renewed if they don't cut the mustard

Yes, but once past that simple test we don't appear to do anything to ensure we continue to have top levels of education. There needs (as with all areas, not just education) an ongoing meritocracy system where the top people are rewarded, and those who are failing the system are cut loose.

We don't have subject matter experts teaching maths and sciences, we don't get rid of the underperforming teachers, and yet we are surprised that we don't have a world class education system.

We either attempt to solve the problem, or except the reality that we are falling behind the rest of the world, and are unlikely to attract foreign companies.

Welease

ei.sdraob wrote: »

to get back in thread, what should be done to make it more attractive again to bring companies like Intel into Ireland, and for that matter holdon to existing lot and make sure they dont do a Dell on it
needless to say the recent Ryanair debacle has shown that theres no hope for enterprise in this country while FF are in power

.

Well i think Barrett made a very important statement which seem to be overlooked...

Essentially, if you want to be paid X times more than you competitors then you need to deliver X times more value.
Why should a factory line worker in the US who does the exact same job as a factory line worker in China need to be paid 10 times the salary.. Logic dicates where there is no extra value then you locate to the cheapest location.. i.e. a race to the bottom.

Our unions, don't want wages cut, our employee's dont want wages cut etc etc etc.. So we need to aggresively drive to deliver more value than our competitors..

Barrett suggest focussing on a race to the top.. The government, companies, unions, employes should be 100% focussed on delivering X times the value of our competitors. The ability to deliver that would allow us to continue to demand the higher pay that people want (and in some cases need to meet their outgoings/loans).

Sadly, I have not heard one minister, one union or one employee demand a race to the top...

The_Honeybadger

Welease wrote: »

Yes, but once past that simple test we don't appear to do anything to ensure we continue to have top levels of education. There needs (as with all areas, not just education) an ongoing meritocracy system where the top people are rewarded, and those who are failing the system are cut loose.

We don't have subject matter experts teaching maths and sciences, we don't get rid of the underperforming teachers, and yet we are surprised that we don't have a world class education system.

We either attempt to solve the problem, or except the reality that we are falling behind the rest of the world, and are unlikely to attract foreign companies.

Agreed, changes are needed in education I doubt anybody would disagree, however I outlined above in an earlier post why this won't happen within our current political system, that would be long term strategic planning, and FF can't see past the next election. I also believe that the current system suits those not pulling their weight just fine, so why would they agree to change in how their job performance is measured, especially with their unions backing them to the hilt. We really should listen when someone like Mr Barrett gives his advice to us for free but thats FF for you.

Jip

Welease wrote: »

our education system is average at best.. We don't have subject matter experts teaching maths and science.

I'd qualify that by specifying primary and post primary education. In my experience, from the very early 90s when I was doing my leaving, there was a handful of us in maths that wanted to do honours. However, and this is my understanding, there was no teacher qualified to teach us so we had to breeze though the regular classes, i.e. finish whatever exercises we had and then give other students a hand.

But this lead to problems when I went onto third level in that I have a significant disadvantage when doing engineering in that I struggled for a while to catch up with those that came from honours maths and physics. I would estimate that about a third of first year at the time failed the various maths subjects and was the main reason for many dropping out of the course.

ei.sdraob

@Welease good post

Welease wrote: »

Sadly, I have not heard one minister, one union or one employee demand a race to the top...

they did (sort of)

it was called benchmarking

except no productivity gains or reforms materialized as promised and the public bill kept going up and up

#15

I am a primary teacher and these are some observations of mine which I believe are relevant to the thread.

Primary education: I would be in favour of specialist subject teachers, at the minute primary teachers are meant to be jacks-of-all-trades.

11 curriculum subjects weekly; English, Irish, Maths, History, Geography, Science, Art, Music, Drama, SPHE and PE.
That is before you take into account the waste of time that is religious instruction.

This needs to be streamlined a bit. Is it really necessary for small children to be studying history? (I say that as a History graduate btw)
Do children need one hour of Drama per week?
Do they need to be spending 3 and a half hours per week learning Irish?
Is it morally correct to be subjecting them to 2 and a half hours per week of Catholic doctrine in state schools?

We need to focus on a number of things in primary education IMHO:
Literacy, Numeracy (and other maths skills when appropriate), Science and modern languages.
Children should leave primary school with solid skills in Languages, Maths and Scence.
Obviously a large amount of time also has to be spent on developing social skills with young children.

Small schools should be closed.
It is pointless having a number of small* schools in relatively small areas.
Where I grew up, there are 6 schools within a 10 mile radius. All small, with poor facilities. If there was one large school, it would be possible to have much better facilities (IT, Gym, assembly area, library).
It would also mean one principal for a large school. Surely it is better than paying 6 principals?

Also, people need to realise that the pupil-teacher ratio is more important when children are young. The PT ratio does impact upon the performance of young children. There is a decreasing impact as children get older.

So if we must have high PT ratios, at least have them in areas where it causes the least damage.

I also believe that skilled teachers should be educated to a high standard, and paid well too.
The deadwood should be cut adrift, and the public needs to lose the attitude that teachers are childminders.

It's time to get serious about our education system.


* less than 6 teachers per school (my own definition!)

Welease

I don't profess to be an expert on education, but I absolutely agree with every point you have made...

For me, one of the issues is the apparent lack of a "bigger" education/employment plan.. Why are we spending all this money on education to churn out average students with average expertise in average areas? If thats the plan, then average teachers with average facilities and average respect is probably all that is required. As Barrett said, in the US teachers are pretty much pulled from the lower 25% of students (they have the same problems as us), whereas in Finland (i think it was) teachers come from the very best academic student population.

If however, you want to provide X times the value of your competition (in a race to the top), then you need to understand which area's provide the most value (essentially apply LEAN concepts to education), move resource from unproductive areas to the high value areas and ensure you have high quality trainers in place. Barrett specifically mentions places like MIT.. We don't have anything resembling that in Ireland, in fact as he mentioned the key educations of science and maths are well behind.

I (humbly) believe we need to look at the type of high value jobs we want to bring into this country, and start leveraging our education system to facilitate a world class workforce capable of doing those jobs. Those who are not capable of providing that level of education should be removed form the system.

ardmacha

except no productivity gains or reforms materialized as promised

I previously asked on another thread for an actual concrete example of a reform promised by a Union and not delivered where there was a definite effort to achieve this. Productivity was not valued by the government, hence not much productivity (although this may have suited Unions too).

This country needs to accept that as a prosperous country we can only advance by doing things in a way that is productive on a world stage. People have to accept that, they have to stop valuing building houses and people becoming solicitors to convey sale of same. This attitude has to become intrinsic to government and passed on to the management of education and other public services. Not more "t'will do".

ei.sdraob

ardmacha wrote: »

I previously asked on another thread for an actual concrete example of a reform promised by a Union and not delivered where there was a definite effort to achieve this. Productivity was not valued by the government, hence not much productivity (although this may have suited Unions too).

what exactly were the benchmarking raises given for so then?


i dont care what the government value as they have shown recently with NAMA they are incapable of "valuing" anything

the people of this country want better productivity and value for money from the public sector who are meant to serve the public (they are doing a great job at doing at not doing their jobs now)

#15

Welease wrote: »

I don't profess to be an expert on education, but I absolutely agree with every point you have made...

For me, one of the issues is the apparent lack of a "bigger" education/employment plan.. Why are we spending all this money on education to churn out average students with average expertise in average areas? If thats the plan, then average teachers with average facilities and average respect is probably all that is required. As Barrett said, in the US teachers are pretty much pulled from the lower 25% of students (they have the same problems as us), whereas in Finland (i think it was) teachers come from the very best academic student population.

In Ireland, primary teachers seem to be coming from the higher achieving Leaving Cert students (not including graduate entrants to the profession).
It usually requires 450 points or more to get into teacher training.
I think subject specialisation needs to be considered seriously. You cannot expect someone to teach all 11 subjects to an equal standard. Some people will be naturally stronger/better in certain areas. I think they should be allowed to focus on those areas.

If however, you want to provide X times the value of your competition (in a race to the top), then you need to understand which area's provide the most value (essentially apply LEAN concepts to education), move resource from unproductive areas to the high value areas and ensure you have high quality trainers in place. Barrett specifically mentions places like MIT.. We don't have anything resembling that in Ireland, in fact as he mentioned the key educations of science and maths are well behind.

I firmly believe there should be more emphasis on Maths and Science in primary schools.
Establish the interest and the building blocks early.

I (humbly) believe we need to look at the type of high value jobs we want to bring into this country, and start leveraging our education system to facilitate a world class workforce capable of doing those jobs. Those who are not capable of providing that level of education should be removed form the system.

I agree.

Such a system would cost big bucks though.
High quality teachers and well resourced schools needs to be paid for. I think many people, especially those with the attitude that teachers are childminders and not educators, would baulk at the cost.

Personally I would favour some sort of privatisation of the education system.

Schools established on different educational philosophies would provide variety and competition (and outcomes).

The_Honeybadger

#15 wrote: »

Such a system would cost big bucks though.
High quality teachers and well resourced schools needs to be paid for. I think many people, especially those with the attitude that teachers are childminders and not educators, would baulk at the cost.

Personally I would favour some sort of privatisation of the education system.

Schools established on different educational philosophies would provide variety and competition (and outcomes).

Good posts, big bucks are needed alright and we should not be afraid to spend them on something like this.

Just imagine if we could have invested what we are putting into the banks into education & broadband and other worthwhile projects. I know it would take over a decade to see results but it would be worth every penny in the end.

Not sure I know anybody who feels teachers are childminders but you'd know more about that than I would

Welease

mickeyk wrote: »

Good posts, big bucks are needed alright and we should not be afraid to spend them on something like this.

Just imagine if we could have invested what we are putting into the banks into education & broadband and other worthwhile projects. I know it would take over a decade to see results but it would be worth every penny in the end.

Not sure I know anybody who feels teachers are childminders but you'd know more about that than I would

I don't think the cost is as high as we would imagine.. It shouldn't nessarily cost anymore to spend more time on maths/sciences etc. and less time on some less valuable subjects (it is a long time since i was in school, but I spent as much time doing religion as I did maths... there is something wrong there).

As you have said before, if we streamlined the choice of classes then teachers could focus on more depth.

Putting meritocracy in place could save money on teachers.. Those who fail can be replaced with good teachers, and those who excel will be rewarded.. Those teachers who excel over time would end up with a much better salary than those who are average.. Giving everyone the same pay rise is just rediculous and an unnecessary cost that some don't deserve.

#15

mickeyk wrote: »

Just imagine if we could have invested what we are putting into the banks into education & broadband and other worthwhile projects. I know it would take over a decade to see results but it would be worth every penny in the end.

Not sure I know anybody who feels teachers are childminders but you'd know more about that than I would

Unfortunately such a long (even medium) term view seems to have been beyond our politicians.

Re: childminding comment, it was something I had picked up on boards, but I could be just reading too much into some comments.

#15

Welease wrote: »

I don't think the cost is as high as we would imagine.. It shouldn't nessarily cost anymore to spend more time on maths/sciences etc. and less time on some less valuable subjects (it is a long time since i was in school, but I spent as much time doing religion as I did maths... there is something wrong there).

As you have said before, if we streamlined the choice of classes then teachers could focus on more depth.

Putting meritocracy in place could save money on teachers.. Those who fail can be replaced with good teachers, and those who excel will be rewarded.. Those teachers who excel over time would end up with a much better salary than those who are average.. Giving everyone the same pay rise is just rediculous and an unnecessary cost that some don't deserve.

That's the problem really. I have nothing against religious schools if they are privately funded, but they should not be the default option for state schools.
Priorities have been skewed.

About meritocracy, it's a fair point. I would agree totally with you if some form of fair assessment (of teachers) was implemented.
A results based approach (at least at primary, I don't know enough about secondary) would be difficult to implement, and might not reveal the best teachers.
It's a tough one. I agree with you in principle, but I'm at a loss as to how it would be carried out in practice.

Welease

#15 wrote: »

About meritocracy, it's a fair point. I would agree totally with you if some form of fair assessment (of teachers) was implemented.
A results based approach (at least at primary, I don't know enough about secondary) would be difficult to implement, and might not reveal the best teachers.
It's a tough one. I agree with you in principle, but I'm at a loss as to how it would be carried out in practice.

I don't think a results (as in exam) based approach is probably the best method, it can be prone to social strata skewing for example, and that may not necessarily reflect the ability of the teacher..

A relatively simple approach employed by a lot of companies is grouped meritocracy which could be done on a district or county level in some cases. Every teacher sets out specific goals for the year, and they are measured on those, but more importantly on the achievements of the other teacher in the "ranking" group. If you aim low with goals and achieve them, and everyone else aims higher and achieves them.. they you will end up in the bottom distribution.

The "ranking" groups are pooled together by head teachers. So for example, each school has 20 teachers and the locale is 5 schools.. You would expect a distribution of about 10% excel, 80% satisfactory and 10% slower.. The 5 head teachers pre rank their teachers, and together they ensure the proper distribution is met. The head teacher is close enough to the individual teacher to be able to asses their contribution (they are essentially managers)

10% excel get a 2-3x pay rise based on average amount
80% get .5-1.5x pay rise based on average amount with pay scale
10% slower get nothing.

Head teachers are ranked in a similar manner by whoever they report to..

There are no autopromotions or pay rises for length of service etc..

I've seen it used in lots of companies and it works pretty well..

Head The Wall

Welease wrote: »

10% excel get a 2-3x pay rise based on average amount
80% get .5-1.5x pay rise based on average amount with pay scale
10% slower get nothing.

Head teachers are ranked in a similar manner by whoever they report to..

There are no autopromotions or pay rises for length of service etc..

I've seen it used in lots of companies and it works pretty well..

I would agree with that but the 80% average should get no payrise (leaving aside inflation and deflation increases)

If you are average you are just doing your job and for that you get your wage.

people that are slower should get a written warning on performance, be given a review date and will receive a reduction in wages based on that review. Subsequent failures would lead to dismissal