A shot in the arm for Ireland's economy

Amhran Nua

While there is no quick fix or panacea for the economic troubles plaguing the country at the moment and probably for years to come, some of the damage can be mitigated by a spot of innovative thinking, using our cultural resources. A report has been released recently highlighting the beneficial effects of major sporting events on cities and countries, leading to economic and cultural growth, which may sound like a no-brainer, but sometimes the writing on the wall needs to be spelled out as it were.

Top sports events 'boost economy'

Hosting major sports events, such as the Winter Olympics or football World Cup, can help boost a city's economy and global image, a new report says.

Social development also benefits, says the Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu report.

It says hosting an event allows a city or country to move quickly on a wide range of issues and activities that might otherwise not get under way.

Winter Olympic host Vancouver has used the games to build a convention centre, rapid transit rail line, and motorway.

"Emerging countries and cities are seeking to distinguish themselves in the new economy by hosting major events to put themselves front and centre on the global stage," says the report's co-author Greg Pellegrino, of DTT.

He said the rigid deadlines associated with international sports events could help accelerate economic development.

Mr Pellegrino said major sports events could boost tourism, improve infrastructure and provide an opportunity to elevate the host's stature among the top global brands.

The report, A Lasting Legacy, also looks at how hosting such international tournaments can foster collaboration among the public and private sector.

In terms of the economy, there's not much better than tourism for bringing capital into a country - minimal expenditure, existing infrastructure already in place, no real production required. What we in AN have been proposing for a while is the (re)creation of such a sporting event or events, and the release of this report is a good time to highlight the policy.

The Tailteann games
The central policy for the enhancement of our cultural profile is the revival of the Tailteann Games. These were a form of "Celtic Olympics" that originate in the 6th century BC, supposedly by Lugh, and were held continuously up until the 12th century AD, before being revived in the 1880s and lapsing in the early 1920s.

A description of the Tailteann games in the early twenties comes to us from professor Mike Cronin, of Boston University.

"Yet the Tailteann Games, which catered for 5,000 competitors and hundreds of thousands of spectators, was held in very adverse circumstances."

The first games were to be held in 1922, but the outbreak of the Civil War meant the American athletes pulled out and the idea was abandoned. When revived two years later, however, the games were a runaway success: there were over 5,000 competitors in disciplines as diverse as hurling and Gaelic football, a full athletics programme, swimming, motor-cycle and airplane racing, art and music competitions."

At the time they attracted hundreds of thousands of people. Given the intense interest that is generated by the Olympics, sporting events and athletic competitions in general these days, we are going to produce a full revival of the games, stretching over a month, sited at several areas around the country which would benefit greatly from the event, complete with modern facilities with an Irish-themed look.

The events will be marketed heavily throughout the world as national prestige events, although the emphasis will be on Gaelic sports and culture, including hurling, Gaelic football, and camogie, along with outreach efforts to the huge global Irish diaspora, which should generate enormous amounts of tourism related revenue.

By combining the cultural power of Ireland with the attraction of an international sporting event of a distinctly historical pedigree with the elan and flash of for example the lord of the dance productions (which four times the population of Ireland has paid good money to see), basing it at several locations - not neccessarily municipal centres, in fact something like air races would want to be far away from inhabited areas - we can provide a powerful stimulus for the hospitality industry at many locations around the country, on a tight budget.

Permabear

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flutered

well why not mix and match, use every asset at the countrys disposal, the main critism i have of this country is no body seem to respect or mabey even consider the other persons point of view, we are too srtict in our viewpoints.

Amhran Nua

donegalfella wrote: »

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One drop of culture is worth a bucket of money - just ask this fella:

donegalfella wrote: »

Even in the unlikely event that we did realise a profit of €1 billion from hosting a once-in-a-lifetime event such as the World Cup, that would only keep the public sector going for around 3 weeks.

Who was talking about the world cup?

donegalfella wrote: »

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I'd correct your statement there by saying that the answer to Ireland's economic woes lies in cutting expenditure and coming up with ideas for raising liquidity in the economy through sporting events, among other things.

Permabear

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Amhran Nua

donegalfella wrote: »

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Ah yes, I see where the confusion arises. The thread is intended to be more focused on the second part of the post though, the Tailteann games.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Agreed completely on encouraging investment and entrepreneurship (and we have lots of ideas on that front too), however the readies made available by an annual, widely based and internationally high profile series of sporting events under the umbrella of an ancient Celtic sporting festival should not be underestimated.

You would have fans and supporters from all over the globe arriving into the country, spending money which in turn stimulates local economies wherever a games segment was based (not even talking about tax revenues here although thats another obvious benefit), as well as close links being forged with the influential Irish diaspora, raising the profile of the country, the list of benefits is endless.

We saw a similar event here in Galway with the Green Dragon and the boat racing - the local authority and heads of business went all out to ensure maximum returns from the festival, even going so far as to clear out some old oil tanks at the docks. It went very well indeed, the only problem is there is no guarantee Galway will ever be a stopover city again. Thats a small local example, but the general idea is, I hope, clear.

Valmont

The tall ships race is set to generate quite a bit of local income for Waterford whenever its on. I think the publicity of these events is definitely good for raising the profile of our country. Although its not much good if we are still borrowing out the arse for social and civil services.

hinault

I know from talking to my folks and older relatives that sports events like Ras Tailteann has a huge following.

40,000 - 50,000 people would turn up in the Phoenix Park to watch the final stage of the Ras for example during the 1950/60's.

So yes, sports events, home grown sports events, can attract the public and hence engender spending.

Amhran Nua

hinault wrote: »

So yes, sports events, home grown sports events, can attract the public and hence engender spending.

Indeed, the trick is to use the proven international appeal of Irish culture to attract the public from other countries!

hinault

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Indeed, the trick is to use the proven international appeal of Irish culture to attract the public from other countries!

I'm not a "GAA" person, per se.

However, I do believe that we have the greatest field game in the world, in the game of hurling.

If we could market this game worldwide - and not just market it to the Irish diaspora abroad - this might be a basis for staging an international event on a regular basis in the future.

Amhran Nua

hinault wrote: »

If we could market this game worldwide - and not just market it to the Irish diaspora abroad - this might be a basis for staging an international event on a regular basis in the future.

If Flatley can pull it off on the basis of a Eurovision intermission song, you can believe we can get the word out about something like this. The intention is to cover a wide range of sporting events, inclusing non-traditional Irish games and sports.

Godge

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Indeed, the trick is to use the proven international appeal of Irish culture to attract the public from other countries!

Proven international appeal of Irish culture. Let me see - U2, a washed-up rock band who were great in their heyday but have become caricatures of themselves. The Corrs, now split up. The Script?? We punch at our weight not above, not below. Where is our great modern theatre, opera or ballet?? Literary giants of the distant past who wrote in English rather than Irish have only a limited appeal. We have a niche in animation and short film, granted but does that amount to proven international appeal?

As for the Tailteann games, the bottom line for all sporting events is the TV audience. I bet Wigan v Bolton on a Monday night in February would attract more TV viewers. The fastest growing TV audience is for cricket because the fastest growing TV owners are in India.

The Tailteann games are an idea of the 1960s. Just like the Commonwealth games and the Winter Olympics, the time has passed. Unfortunately, we didn't even have the vision to do it when the time was right.

Amhran Nua

Godge wrote: »

Proven international appeal of Irish culture. Let me see - U2, a washed-up rock band who were great in their heyday but have become caricatures of themselves. The Corrs, now split up. The Script?? We punch at our weight not above, not below. Where is our great modern theatre, opera or ballet?? Literary giants of the distant past who wrote in English rather than Irish have only a limited appeal. We have a niche in animation and short film, granted but does that amount to proven international appeal?

16 million people have paid to see Riverdance and its associated productions, thats four times the population of the country - this was pointed out in the OP. Not too limited from where I'm sitting, and they weren't sitting in front of their tellies either.

Godge wrote: »

As for the Tailteann games, the bottom line for all sporting events is the TV audience. I bet Wigan v Bolton on a Monday night in February would attract more TV viewers.

I'll take that bet.

ei.sdraob

the govt cant even retain 500 existing jobs

you seriously think the likes of these "games" can be organised?

i sure hope your party spends more time on down to earth pursuits not pie in the sky dreams of doubtful benefits

Amhran Nua

ei.sdraob wrote: »

the govt cant even retain 500 existing jobs

you seriously think the likes of these "games" can be organised?

We're not the government. Not yet, anyway.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

i sure hope your party spends more time on down to earth pursuits not pie in the sky dreams of doubtful benefits

Talk to the report if you like, its well known that major sporting events draw in serious amounts of capital to a country as well as many other benefits including raising the country profile, and we do it for less by taking advantage of the culture of the nation with its proven appeal. Where some might have to spend millions on a setting, we might only have to spend a few hundred thousands for a bit of greyish wall covered in knotwork, and that will get them oohing and ahhing.

Now can you see any realistic flaws with this line of thinking?

ei.sdraob

Amhran Nua wrote: »

We're not the government. Not yet, anyway.

of course your not, and if you ever are i sure hope you spend more time on more "mundane" and boring work of "governing" instead of wasting energy on pursuits like this

how is what you proposing any different from Fianna Fail's "Bertie Bowl" idea? a big white elephant project with questionable value (especially at times like this when the piggy banks are broke)

for your proposal to have any serious traction you would have to do a study and provide people with the economic positives (if any) based on research and facts, unfortunately the country is broke so playing the "nationalistic prestige" bell rings rather hollow

where will the money for this "shot in the arm" come from? better not be more borrowing

if we use your line of thinking then why not borrow another "NAMA load" of money and send a man to Mars (@ cost of 55 billion US$) the scientific, engineering and "country dickflag planting/waving" value out of such an endeavour would pay itself back over few decades


sorry for being critical, i understand your party is coming up with idea (thats more than can be said for the rest of the bad bunch) so well done there its just without any figures that can illustrate any positives theres just too many unknowns and question marks

Amhran Nua

ei.sdraob wrote: »

of course your not, and if you ever are i sure hope you spend more time on more "mundane" and boring work of "governing" instead of wasting energy on pursuits like this

You'll find no shortage of dry socioeconomic analysis and policies on the site, not to worry.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

how is what you proposing any different from Fianna Fail's "Bertie Bowl" idea? a big white elephant project with questionable value (especially at times like this when the piggy banks are broke)

The bertie bowl was a vanity project by a single politician from start to finish, there is no comparison.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

for your proposal to have any serious traction you would have to do a study and provide people with the economic positives (if any) based on research and facts

A bit like that report I linked to in the OP?

ei.sdraob wrote: »

its just without any figures that can illustrate any positives theres just too many unknowns and question marks

Without a doubt I see where you are coming from, especially given the former track record of governments in similar pursuits. However I think you are coming at it from the wrong angle - you are saying that the primary advantage would be in prestige, which is not what we are saying. The primary advantage would be in hard cold capital, prestige is a distant but important second.

Lets look at the bones of the proposal; major sporting events do bring major revenue into countries and areas, unless the organisers completely lose the run of themselves and spend huge amounts on setting it up. This is a fact. This specific event was run previously, successfully, and there are numerous examples of unrelated sporting events throughout the country that had a similar effect, two were already mentioned in this thread.

Irish "Celtic" culture has a serious international appeal, people love the stuff, diaspora or not. Some might turn up their nose and sneer at the twee overtones, but Michael Flatley sneers right back from his private castle. The pageantry, energy, elan, spirit and feel of the cultural profile of that aspect of Ireland made riverdance and its related shows some of the most wildly successful ever. Nobody else has anything quite like it, so we need to own that image completely.

What we're talking about is using the latter to reduce the cost of running the former.

The entire project needs to be set up to maximise the returns for the economy, spread it out over a month, don't organise it to clash with other major sporting events like the Olympics (that might be one year off three years on), select locations for each event based on the value they will bring to that area among other things - widely spread out across the country, carefully market it to international audiences, work with private enterprise (no reason why the whole thing need be taxpayer funded) to make it run smoothly, perhaps airline discounts given to people flying into Ireland who also hold event tickets for the Games, there are a lot of ways this could be optimised.

The preponderance of evidence is without a doubt in favour of this intiative.

Welease

I think your example oversimplifies the situation.. (not to say that this couldn't work).

As far as I am aware 16 million people didn't travel to see Flatley perform in Ireland.. The show travelled the world and hit the major cities. A sporting event requires people to travel to this country, which is a vastly different proposition.

People will travel to major events where they have a big interest in the team/country etc. hence why it's possible to make a large amount of revenue from world cups/olympics. Do Irish sports have the same level of global appeal, whereby people would choose to come here and follow their teams? (do they even have teams). At present I don't think so.

Global level events take global level infrastructure, put simply we don't have that type of infastructure available to host a global event, and we don't have the type of capital available to build it.. Sure, we could aim smaller, but then we have to be realistic and understand the revenue generated will be a lot smaller than the world cup & olympic examples cited.

Ireland has a rich culture that is already globally recognised. We should continue to work on developing that abroad through our state agencies. Our appeal is our friendliness, music and ancient culture/lore... not sports. In my opinion, money would be better spent to continue to develop those brand characteristics.

Amhran Nua

Welease wrote: »

I think your example oversimplifies the situation..

No doubt, but this isn't a white paper here. I hope the fundamental idea is clear though.

Welease wrote: »

As far as I am aware 16 million people didn't travel to see Flatley perform in Ireland.. The show travelled the world and hit the major cities. A sporting event requires people to travel to this country, which is a vastly different proposition.

Not so much. Besides I doubt that 16 million would ever be showing up for the Tailteann games from around the world, which is alright because we don't near need anywhere that many for it to be a roaring success.

Welease wrote: »

Do Irish sports have the same level of global appeal, whereby people would choose to come here and follow their teams? (do they even have teams). At present I don't think so.

Sorry just to correct a misapprehension there, the policy states an emphasis on Gaelic games, but that is definetely not to the exclusion of all else. The last time the games were held in a similar fashion, as indicated in the OP, with motorcycle races, air races, football, and musical and poetry competitions. The broader it is the more appeal it has.

Welease wrote: »

Global level events take global level infrastructure, put simply we don't have that type of infastructure available to host a global event, and we don't have the type of capital available to build it..

These events are used to fast track infrastructure projects, and unlike the Olympics or world cup, as already mentioned, this would have a very decentralised focus, spread around the country for maximum advantage and reducing strain on existing networks.

Welease wrote: »

Our appeal is our friendliness, music and ancient culture/lore... not sports.

I hope the connection between sports and income is supported by the discussion thus far, and the cultural assets we have can be used to reduce initial and ongoing costs in order to make that happen.

SkepticOne

Godge wrote: »

Proven international appeal of Irish culture. Let me see - U2, a washed-up rock band who were great in their heyday but have become caricatures of themselves. The Corrs, now split up. The Script?? We punch at our weight not above, not below. Where is our great modern theatre, opera or ballet?? Literary giants of the distant past who wrote in English rather than Irish have only a limited appeal. We have a niche in animation and short film, granted but does that amount to proven international appeal?

As for the Tailteann games, the bottom line for all sporting events is the TV audience. I bet Wigan v Bolton on a Monday night in February would attract more TV viewers. The fastest growing TV audience is for cricket because the fastest growing TV owners are in India.

The Tailteann games are an idea of the 1960s. Just like the Commonwealth games and the Winter Olympics, the time has passed. Unfortunately, we didn't even have the vision to do it when the time was right.

It might possibly be because sentiments like the above become increasingly dominant that something like what is being suggested - a major public event - becomes necessary. The benefit may not be immediately financial. It could merely be something that could be pointed to when it seems that Ireland is capable of nothing.

dunsandin

If you are a cynic who holds the view that entertainment, be it sport or x-factor are simply the opiate of the masses(if they are obsessing about man-u then they won't notice what we're up to), you won't hold your breath for dancing or ball kicking to re-invigorate the economy. What probably would do the job though, would be real backing for indigenous entrepreneurs. If you are an average business-person in Ireland, who has a good idea that would create employment and boost exports, you have as much chance of getting backing from our government as you do of buying scratch cards to win the start-up capital. If on the other hand you are an American multi-national, the govt. will fall over itself to ensure that your every whim is met by the IDA(Implement Daft Ideas). Once these companies have absorbed ever tax break available, and sucked down every capital grant, they will just look around for the next sucker state to bleed. (I hear easten europe and India are good spots at the moment.) If Ireland Inc. decided to support its own, and build companies that are culturally more inclined to employ locals, remit taxes to Ireland, retain profit within Ireland, and boost our balance of trade with the rest of the world, we would be better off. At the end of the day, an economy only prospers through export of goods and services, as does a family or individual- if you dont sell your time or product or expertise, you wilt. To boost Irelands economy, back Irish industry and entrepreneurs, and stop pandering to the so called "multi-nationals", who come and go when it suits them, not us. Its a bit like ryanair's current drama - if Micktaker O'Leary was an american, The gap of dunloe would have met his every whim, and cunni lingus would have been evicted so fast their turbines would have spun.

dunsandin

Or, maybe we could hold a "Special Olympics" where we get together the Politicos, the bankers, the Clergy and anyone else we can think of, line them up in a field near Termonfeckin, and give them a five minute head start................

baalthor

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Now can you see any realistic flaws with this line of thinking?

Cynicism and contempt for your target audience maybe?

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Where some might have to spend millions on a setting, we might only have to spend a few hundred thousands for a bit of greyish wall covered in knotwork, and that will get them oohing and ahhing.

Welease

Amhran Nua wrote: »

No doubt, but this isn't a white paper here. I hope the fundamental idea is clear though.

The problem is... any fundamental idea can be made to sound feasible..
Unless more specific details are forthcoming, then it's just an unformed idea with little merit.

I don't mean that to sound rude, it's just a basic part of business.. Everything can look rosy from 50,000 ft.. but until a plan is drawn up with real meat in the detail, all discussion is really irrelevant, because every counter arguement can be sidestepped with glib statements and noone can prove otherwise.

baalthor

hinault wrote: »

I'm not a "GAA" person, per se.

However, I do believe that we have the greatest field game in the world, in the game of hurling.

If we could market this game worldwide - and not just market it to the Irish diaspora abroad - this might be a basis for staging an international event on a regular basis in the future.

We need to market it in Ireland first !

dunsandin

And anyway, hurling is too new to know wether it will catch on big time with other nations................oh no, hang on, its been around ages, and still hasn't caught the worlds imagination - they just dont
know what they're missing, the fools.

Amhran Nua

dunsandin wrote: »

What probably would do the job though, would be real backing for indigenous entrepreneurs.

Yes and we have buckets of ideas about those on the site as well. This thread however is about one particular idea, I'll be quite happy to start other threads about the other ideas if you like.

baalthor wrote: »

Cynicism and contempt for your target audience maybe?

Pick a turn of phrase and someone somewhere will be offended by it. Can you clarify exactly for us all how that implies contempt and cynicism?

Welease wrote: »

The problem is... any fundamental idea can be made to sound feasible.

Sorry, you haven't a leg to stand on here to be honest. Two well-proven, rock solid ideas don't get combined into one and fail, certainly not on their combined merits. What you are saying here is "I don't believe you", which is somewhat like saying you don't believe in the postman. Its real, it has happened in the past and will happen again in the future.

Welease

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Sorry, you haven't a leg to stand on here to be honest. Two well-proven, rock solid ideas don't get combined into one and fail, certainly not on their combined merits. What you are saying here is "I don't believe you", which is somewhat like saying you don't believe in the postman. Its real, it has happened in the past and will happen again in the future.

No thats not what I am saying, don't try and put words into my mouth because you don't have any detail behind your plans...

The modern Olympics have been run for the past 100 years or so... As far as I am aware no Olympics turned a profit until the LA Olympics.. So what changed.. The competition was the same, the format was the same, the fuindamental plan was the same.. BUT THE IMPLEMENTATION WAS DIFFERENT.. (implementation is based on the specific details)

If you can't grasp that simple concept, then maybe you and your party shouldn't be proposing grand ideas.

Amhran Nua

Welease wrote: »

No thats not what I am saying, don't try and put words into my mouth because you don't have any detail behind your plans...

Who was putting words in your mouth? If you want more details ask for them - instead you've been saying you don't think so because you don't think so.

Welease wrote: »

The modern Olympics have been run for the past 100 years or so... As far as I am aware no Olympics turned a profit until the LA Olympics.. So what changed.. The competition was the same, the format was the same, the fuindamental plan was the same.. BUT THE IMPLEMENTATION WAS DIFFERENT.. (implementation is based on the specific details)

Yes, because those were intended to be primarily prestige events, not moneymakers, hence the title of the thread, to illustrate our order of priorities in case anyone got confused. There have also been details discussed in several posts about exactly how those direct economic benefits would be practically realised, that implementation you are talking about. Have you addressed those posts?

Welease wrote: »

If you can't grasp that simple concept, then maybe you and your party shouldn't be proposing grand ideas.

Dealing with constructive criticism goes both ways, in fairness.

Welease

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Who was putting words in your mouth? If you want more details ask for them - instead you've been saying you don't think so because you don't think so..

I have made only 2 posts on the subject.. One of them (the first) clearly stated

Welease wrote: »

not to say that this couldn't work

I have not once stated that this couldn't work... Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.. I have however stated both times that you plan seems to lack "real" detail on how exactly this would work.. I haven't seen anything that addresses those concerns.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Yes, because those were intended to be primarily prestige events, not moneymakers, hence the title of the thread, to illustrate our order of priorities in case anyone got confused. There have also been details discussed in several posts about exactly how those direct economic benefits would be practically realised, that implementation you are talking about. Have you addressed those posts?

Both posts I have made have referred to the fact you actually have no detail in any of your posts.. Show me any specific post which talk about funding, marketing, concerns/issues. risks... How are you going to get X amount of people to come to this country for an event? Less people are going on vacation (apparently), we have had a 12% drop off in people visiting this country due to (apparently) percieved lack of value.
Saying we could have motorbike races isn't detail.. it's a 50,000 ft vision. What race? Why would people care? Who would fund this race? How would you attract the top racers that would make people travel to this country? Why wouldn't they continue to go spent their money at GP races and IOM? How do we retain people for a month? Why would the TV / Sponsors give a damn.. thats detail. Thats the sort of detail that takes a vision into a proper business case. You continually avoid getting into any type of detail, so of course it can sound great.
Neither of my 2 posts have varied from this. You only response was the this isn't a whitepaper.. (which broadly means you don't have any of the detail which would be required to ensure this would be a success... and thats fine it can be developed, but do you and your party have the integrity to admit as much? or is it more of the same old way....)

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Dealing with constructive criticism goes both ways, in fairness.

I have (to my mind) provided constructive criticism on the level of detail required to understand if this could be a success, you responded by (to my mind) by either misinterpreting or willful misrepresenting what I said..

Rgds,
Welease.

Amhran Nua

Welease wrote: »

I have not once stated that this couldn't work... Feel free to correct me if I am wrong..

Sure:

In my opinion, money would be better spent to continue to develop those brand characteristics.

Perhaps that could be read a few different ways, but is this initiative not in fact developing those very brand characteristics as well?

Welease wrote: »

Both posts I have made have referred to the fact you actually have no detail in any of your posts.. Show me any specific post which talk about funding, marketing, concerns/issues. risks... How are you going to get X amount of people to come to this country for an event? Less people are going on vacation (apparently), we have had a 12% drop off in people visiting this country due to (apparently) percieved lack of value.

Okay just to go over the points that have been specifically touched on in the thread:
Funding: private-public combination, with business leaders in areas that stand to benefit supplementing the public funding put into the project. This model has been used very successfully in areas like Galway with the Green Dragon boat races. It went a lot farther than a franchise shop as well, an area of the docks was cleared of a few eyesores (long term benefit) and a massive open market for local vendors to sell their goods was set up in their place; it was packed day and night for the duration of the festival, in a tourism off season.

Marketing: This has been covered extensively, using the methods, branding and approach used by the wildly successful riverdance show and associated events to reduce costs in both diplay and infrastructure and in getting the word out there. Then we have the established machinery of tourism marketing which has already benefited this country greatly. Sports is also great for marketing, because if for example the US javelin team is here, the US networks are going to want to cover it. This worked in the 1920s, can you think of any particular reason why it wouldn't work today?

Less people going on vacation: mentioned already was a reduction in air fares for Tailteann event ticket holders, more private-public cooperation.

High cost of Ireland: This hasn't been mentioned so far, but its an important one. Set up a "Tailteann card" scheme, a two tier card system to give discounts for cardholders in participating outlets, which would be most of them, and additional benefits for the "gold card", which could be also used to direct people to particular events that you want to emphasise - buy a ticket to a certain event and get a gold card upgrade.

Other issues: By spreading it over a month and putting it in geographically diverse locations you extend the benefit while simultaneously reducing infrastructure stress. This also gives the opportunity to increase coverage of Ireland's other tourist attractions. On top of that if various areas are in competition for Tailteann inclusion, things like tidy towns competitions take on a whole new meaning, as well as being given the opportunity to build valuable new infrastructure which will have a lasting regional effect beyond the games themselves. Then you have the national profile benefits, it would certainly make attracting FDI a lot easier.

Welease wrote: »

Neither of my 2 posts have varied from this. You only response was the this isn't a whitepaper..

Indeed its not a whitepaper, but if any reasonable objections can be raised to the real and substantial points put forward, I've yet to hear them.

Welease

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Sure:

Perhaps that could be read a few different ways, but is this initiative not in fact developing those very brand characteristics as well?.

So in essence, I didn't say what you attributed to me..... Is it that difficult to just admit it?
I stated the idea could work, but felt that focussed spending on our current branding was a better consolidated use of our limited funding. I made no reference to the specific merits of your ideas because frankly (again) you have not provided any real detail.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Okay just to go over the points that have been specifically touched on in the thread:
Funding: private-public combination, with business leaders in areas that stand to benefit supplementing the public funding put into the project. This model has been used very successfully in areas like Galway with the Green Dragon boat races. It went a lot farther than a franchise shop as well, an area of the docks was cleared of a few eyesores (long term benefit) and a massive open market for local vendors to sell their goods was set up in their place; it was packed day and night for the duration of the festival, in a tourism off season.

So what were the figures for this? I assume if it was "very succesful" then the figures have been gone over..

How much was spent?
how much extra revenue was generate above and beyond the normal income for that region in that given time period?
What was the burden on those private companies?
Is that burden realistic given the current economic climate?
How many people specifically came from abroad for that event? (if you are going to use an example, then the example has to be relevant)
Does this model scale countrywide?
If multipe events are being run across the country then the TAM is split across those events?
How much external sponsorship and TV coverage was their of this event? How many foreign teams came? etc etc..
that the type of detail that is required to understand if events can be profitable.
There are plenty of very successful local events run every year, but they do not constitute proof positive that a globalised event is a dead cert.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Marketing: This has been covered extensively, using the methods, branding and approach used by the wildly successful riverdance show and associated events to reduce costs in both diplay and infrastructure and in getting the word out there. Then we have the established machinery of tourism marketing which has already benefited this country greatly. Sports is also great for marketing, because if for example the US javelin team is here, the US networks are going to want to cover it. This worked in the 1920s, can you think of any particular reason why it wouldn't work today?.

Sorry but with respect, if you think you have covered the marketing extensively, then I don't honestly think you understand the concept of marketing or the detail involved in a plan.
The Riverdance show bears no relation to what you are proposing here. It was a single high profile event that went around the globe as a result of the demand the Eurovision created. You plan is a multiple unconnected events festival that will be restricted geographically to Ireland.. A fraction (i'd imagine) of the 16m people who saw that show came to Ireland.. the success of your plan is dependant on people coming to Ireland..

Lets take your US Javeling example..
How are you going to get them to come here?
Do you honestly believe that people will travel across the world to watch a minor competition?
How many people routinely travel from the US to Europe to watch grand prix Athletics events (which would be more important than your games)... I'm guessing the number is close to 0.
Tv coverage...???? TV coverage in the US (if it even happened) would happen when then results were announced (as in the way sports shows also work here).. some networks may (unlikely) show it as a frivilous topic at the end.. In either case, it's too late to generate fans who will travel to Ireland for the actual event.
Team participation - There are events calendars for sports.. Most events are decided well in advance, and the top athletes etc. will only attend those. How do you propose to have a random event with multiple sports sanctioned by those sports bodies.
Which stadiums would we use for hosting these events? Which stadiums are precisely big enough to generate enough revenue to pay people the huge prizes they expect. (there is probably a reason why we don't already have international events like this already......)

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Indeed its not a whitepaper, but if any reasonable objections can be raised to the real and substantial points put forward, I've yet to hear them.

Again, because you haven't put any detail.. I have responded to a couple above.. Let get some detail on those, then people are in a position to respond with real and substantial points.

Just to clarify, I am not raising these in order to have some pointless internet war with you.. You are coming and raising this plan as a proposal from a political party, and in essence looking to promote your own cause. I have no issue with that, but I do firmly believe that you should therefore expect people to question you on the details of those proposals. I am of the belief that you don't really have any detail (or in essence a business plan) to make this happen, but want to try and pass it of as a sure fire winner without doing due diligence. That to me, if precisely whats wrong with politics in Ireland.. I am hoping you can prove me wrong. (and all my posts are done with the upmost respect to you and you beliefs.)

Rgds,
Welease.

Amhran Nua

Welease wrote: »

I stated the idea could work, but felt that focussed spending on our current branding was a better consolidated use of our limited funding.

Talk about damning with faint praise.

Welease wrote: »

I made no reference to the specific merits of your ideas because frankly (again) you have not provided any real detail.

Except for the ones which have been provided.

Welease wrote: »

How much was spent?
how much extra revenue was generate above and beyond the normal income for that region in that given time period?
What was the burden on those private companies?
Is that burden realistic given the current economic climate?
How many people specifically came from abroad for that event? (if you are going to use an example, then the example has to be relevant)
How much external sponsorship and TV coverage was their of this event? How many foreign teams came? etc etc..

All in one fell swoop:

Over 650,000 people visited the Race Village and Salthill during the festivities last summer, bringing a value of €55.8 million to the area – 1.327 billion viewers tuned in to watch the event on television.

That's about half the local authority's budget for the year in benefits.

Ongoing benefits:

Interest in going offshore continues to build with 25 inquiries for June’s Round Ireland Race, well ahead of normal levels. Wicklow Sailing Club has confirmed the first entry received was from an eager Isle of Man sailor Robin Wooton.

Welease wrote: »

Does this model scale countrywide?

Its not the only festival being held in Ireland.

Welease wrote: »

There are plenty of very successful local events run every year, but they do not constitute proof positive that a globalised event is a dead cert.

If you want a dead cert become a taxman. Other than that, you have to weigh the odds and decide whats favourable or not. This is favourable.

Welease wrote: »

Sorry but with respect, if you think you have covered the marketing extensively, then I don't honestly think you understand the concept of marketing or the detail involved in a plan.

Once again, dismissing the entire concept out of hand because you don't have enough detail, when there clearly is enough to move ahead with it, is exactly why the country is in the state that its in.

Welease wrote: »

A fraction (i'd imagine) of the 16m people who saw that show came to Ireland.. the success of your plan is dependant on people coming to Ireland..

If 16m people descended on the country we'd be wiped out. A more likely goal figure would be a quarter or a fifth of that.

Welease wrote: »

Lets take your US Javeling example..
How are you going to get them to come here?
Do you honestly believe that people will travel across the world to watch a minor competition?
How many people routinely travel from the US to Europe to watch grand prix Athletics events (which would be more important than your games)... I'm guessing the number is close to 0.
Tv coverage...???? TV coverage in the US (if it even happened) would happen when then results were announced (as in the way sports shows also work here).. some networks may (unlikely) show it as a frivilous topic at the end.. In either case, it's too late to generate fans who will travel to Ireland for the actual event.
Team participation - There are events calendars for sports.. Most events are decided well in advance, and the top athletes etc. will only attend those. How do you propose to have a random event with multiple sports sanctioned by those sports bodies.
Which stadiums would we use for hosting these events? Which stadiums are precisely big enough to generate enough revenue to pay people the huge prizes they expect. (there is probably a reason why we don't already have international events like this already......)

Actually you know what you could do here, you could ask for invoices from the companies that produce wooden planks for temporary seating arrangements which will no doubt be used in several events. That would be about as constructive. These events have been run before successfully, and not a single query you have raised is unusual for handling these events, therefore they are unlikely to raise significant obstacles.

So let me ask you, have you any particular reason for thinking that the Irish couldn't manage such an event successfully? Since thats exactly where your string of questions are leading. Weren't you talking before about how the Irish lacked innovation? I may have you confused with another poster there, if so apologies.

Welease wrote: »

I have no issue with that, but I do firmly believe that you should therefore expect people to question you on the details of those proposals.

Theres quite a difference between putting an idea out there to gain support for it and demanding a depth of detailed answers which you are quite aware aren't available at this stage in order to derail the entire concept.

Welease wrote: »

I am of the belief that you don't really have any detail (or in essence a business plan) to make this happen, but want to try and pass it of as a sure fire winner without doing due diligence.

If someone walked up to me right now and said we have half a billion Euros, lets do Tailteann, you can believe due diligence would be enacted first and foremost. Again I'd contrast the difference between putting an idea out there to gain support for it and making unreasonable demands for detail in an effort to stop the entire discussion.

Welease

This is becoming pointless, you just want to waffle around the point, and fail to understand any point being put to you.. You avoid every question.

Once again I have never stated it couldnt be done... not have I ever stated that the Irish couldn't manage such an event. So stop suggesting that I have made such comments.

I have merely questioned your certainty that it would make money, based on limited facts. If you can't see the issue in that, then it suggests to me much like the rest of our politicians you have no experience of running a business.

Yes money could be made, yes it could work... noone is disputing that.. Will it make money?... that depends on how it is implemented.. and you don't have any detail on how it would be implemented.. When you have some detail, then it will be worth discussing.

If you aim is to continually avoid the specifics being asked, then waste someone elses time, while you pat yourself on the back for being innovative.

Amhran Nua

Welease wrote: »

This is becoming pointless, you just want to waffle around the point, and fail to understand any point being put to you.. You avoid every question.

Those questions which have answers were answered, those which don't were not. The relative importance of the questions is the important area to focus on.

Welease wrote: »

Once again I have never stated it couldnt be done... not have I ever stated that the Irish couldn't manage such an event. So stop suggesting that I have made such comments.

But those particular questions were in common with every major sporting event in the world. Clearly they don't present much of a difficulty for the rest of the world, otherwise we wouldn't have any major sporting events. So what makes Ireland different?

Welease wrote: »

I have merely questioned your certainty that it would make money, based on limited facts. If you can't see the issue in that, then it suggests to me much like the rest of our politicians you have no experience of running a business.

There is no certainty in setting up something like this, nor is there certainty in most enterprises. Given the facts presented I would say the odds are quite favourable. As for my personal experience in running a business, I have done so since 2003 in a ferociously competitive market, quite successfully, thanks.

Welease wrote: »

Yes money could be made, yes it could work... noone is disputing that.. Will it make money?... that depends on how it is implemented.. and you don't have any detail on how it would be implemented.. When you have some detail, then it will be worth discussing.

Sorry, lets be quite clear on this. There are plenty of details. There aren't all of the details you want at this point, but since there is no practical limit on the amount of details you can request, that's not what I would call a major problem at this stage.

Welease wrote: »

If you aim is to continually avoid the specifics being asked, then waste someone elses time, while you pat yourself on the back for being innovative.

Yes, imagine wasting time coming up with ideas to help the country struggle its way out of recession, on a tight budget, why would anyone do that. Just to reiterate:

Over 650,000 people visited the Race Village and Salthill during the festivities last summer, bringing a value of €55.8 million to the area – 1.327 billion viewers tuned in to watch the event on television.

Welease

Amhran Nua wrote: »

If someone walked up to me right now and said we have half a billion Euros, lets do Tailteann, you can believe due diligence would be enacted first and foremost. Again I'd contrast the difference between putting an idea out there to gain support for it and making unreasonable demands for detail in an effort to stop the entire discussion.

That seems to about sum it up... You want the Irish people (who are crippled with debt and taxes) to fund your plan.. only then will you do some basic diligence in actually working out what it is you want to do... Classic! Where do I sign up......

Noone is stopping the conversation, I have asked numerous questions, you have responded in detail to none, and continually make up statements which i never said.. If your looking for new members, maybe you should give Willie a shout.. seems to be about that level.

Amhran Nua

Welease wrote: »

That seems to about sum it up... You want the Irish people (who are crippled with debt and taxes) to fund your plan.. only then will you do some basic diligence in actually working out what it is you want to do... Classic! Where do I sign up......

Specific funding was addressed earlier, and it certainly wasn't "taxpayer pays for everything". Besides which, no matter what initiatives you put forward to help move the country forward, they are going to cost money. Have you any ideas which don't cost a cent to get us on the right economic track, I'd love to hear them.

Welease

Amhran Nua wrote: »

But those particular questions were in common with every major sporting event in the world. Clearly they don't present much of a difficulty for the rest of the world, otherwise we wouldn't have any major sporting events. So what makes Ireland different?:

Jeez.. again where did I state we couldnt do it.. Seriously, if you want to be taken seriosly then please consider responding to what I actually said.. This is getting rediculous...

We have successfully run many sporting events... remember the Ryder Cup, Rugby World Cup, Special Olympics etc etc etc.. remember them... I do, which is why i never said we couldn't...

However, you seem to miss the point completely.. you are proposing a wide ranging event covering gaelic games and other "stuff" because you lack detail.. I am asking for detail, because each of those events you mention have timetables and locations assigned to them.. How do you plan to make it all work in the timeframes you suggest... and how do you plan to attract foreign people across..

You can continue to quote 55.8m, but you again fail to understand how much of that was foreign money that was created as opposed to redistributed..

Amhran Nua

Welease wrote: »

I am asking for detail, because each of those events you mention have timetables and locations assigned to them..

Nope, never said that. I did say thats how the project would be envisioned to be organised, as it would appear to be the most optimal way to maximise and distribute returns while minimising costs. We don't have specifics of events/locations/times worked out yet, since its not at that stage.

Welease wrote: »

How do you plan to make it all work in the timeframes you suggest... and how do you plan to attract foreign people across..

We have eight million people that come to Ireland for the purposes of tourism annually regardless, even without any unified sporting event. In Ireland, tourism is one of the most important indigenous industries, employing more than 250,000 people and generating more than €4.2 billion for the economy. The appeal is proven, and an event like this stands a very good chance of pushing those numbers up considerably.

Welease wrote: »

You can continue to quote 55.8m, but you again fail to understand how much of that was foreign money that was created as opposed to redistributed..

Firstly, local redistribution within an economy is not a bad thing, thats liquidity being returned. Secondly, with over a billion viewers globally, I'd say quite a bit of that was foreign money.

ei.sdraob

wouldnt it be funny if a shed load of money was spend on organising such an event

only for the aitraffic controller unions to call another strike closing all the airports and preventing all travel to/from the country



you see @Amhran Nua as i said before, we have MUCH BIGGER issues in this country that need to be addressed

Amhran Nua

ei.sdraob wrote: »

you see @Amhran Nua as i said before, we have MUCH BIGGER issues in this country that need to be addressed

No question of that, but we can address those bigger issues while building on other areas at the same time. There's no single panacea, but a lot of smaller ideas like this put together will have a significant impact.

Welease

Amhran Nua wrote: »

We have eight million people that come to Ireland for the purposes of tourism annually regardless, even without any unified sporting event. In Ireland, tourism is one of the most important indigenous industries, employing more than 250,000 people and generating more than €4.2 billion for the economy. The appeal is proven, and an event like this stands a very good chance of pushing those numbers up considerably.

What event???? Again I have no idea what event you are actually talking about, because you can't even be specific on the core idea of your suggestion.

Is it your intention to bring the Volvo boat race back to Ireland (isn't that being done already), or run some form of gaelic games (isn't the All Ireland doing that already), or is it the motorbike races (what race are you proposing?) etc?

You are throwing out examples that have been done... and missing the point they they are being done already.. what specifically are you trying to add here as part of your claim to being innovative?

Those events that you are using as examples already exist a brands with sponsors etc. You will not be allowed to rebrand any of those events, and you are not in a position to dictate any terms unless you are going to create new events.

So I ask again, what specifically are YOU proposing that this event would contain? (and a variety of sporting type events over a month is not an answer)

Let's start with what your event is... then we can discuss how it could possibly happen....

Welease

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Secondly, with over a billion viewers globally, I'd say quite a bit of that was foreign money.

How so?... If they were viewing it abroad then they were obviously not in Ireland contributing to the economy.

Idbatterim

I keep on reading and hearing propoganda from various self interests, that we have turned the corner! We cant even see the corner! We have caught a slight breather because Lenihan did just enough to keep the wolves from the door, whats going to happen come December, when another 4 billion on so has to be found? I just read in the Sindo, that the amout of mortgage debt alone i.e ignore any other debt is €66 billion! This is more than the entire countries income. There is a perfect storm upon us and its not a good one! We have emigaration, falling incomes, fear to spend, those that have money hoarding it, consumers paying back debt quickly instead of spending and all of us have been hit to an extent, and serious lessons have been learned and the madness and obscenity of the celtic tiger era will never return, but we have still got celtic tiger era goverments overheads, without the celtic tiger tax takes. We are like a plane plummeting to the ground, spiralling out of control! Thats my 2c!

kuntboy

It's often said by Amhran Nua and others that there are "loads" of ideas for entrepreneurship being expressed here. This is simply not true. There was a thread a while ago called "What should Ireland seek to excel in". About 10 ideas were given, about 3 of which hadn't been heard before, and the rest of the thread turned into people saying "how very many ideas" were being given on that same thread and an argument about the appropriate level of government interference in the economy.

There should be hundreds, if not thousands, of ideas being expressed here. If the best a public forum can come up with is in the tens, then either there is a serious lack of imagination or people just think its hopeless and not worth it.

wasper

Amhran Nua wrote: »

While there is no quick fix or panacea for the economic troubles plaguing the country at the moment and probably for years to come, some of the damage can be mitigated by a spot of innovative thinking, using our cultural resources. A report has been released recently highlighting the beneficial effects of major sporting events on cities and countries, leading to economic and cultural growth, which may sound like a no-brainer, but sometimes the writing on the wall needs to be spelled out as it were.
In terms of the economy, there's not much better than tourism for bringing capital into a country - minimal expenditure, existing infrastructure already in place, no real production required. What we in AN have been proposing for a while is the (re)creation of such a sporting event or events, and the release of this report is a good time to highlight the policy.

By combining the cultural power of Ireland with the attraction of an international sporting event of a distinctly historical pedigree with the elan and flash of for example the lord of the dance productions (which four times the population of Ireland has paid good money to see), basing it at several locations - not neccessarily municipal centres, in fact something like air races would want to be far away from inhabited areas - we can provide a powerful stimulus for the hospitality industry at many locations around the country, on a tight budget.

Why do you think Greece is in trouble. Partly to the Olympics spending.

baalthor

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Pick a turn of phrase and someone somewhere will be offended by it. Can you clarify exactly for us all how that implies contempt and cynicism?

To me, saying:

"we might only have to spend a few hundred thousands for a bit of greyish wall covered in knotwork, and that will get them oohing and ahhing."

suggests that you don't think much of the cultural aspect yourself but you think that gullible foreigners will be easily impressed. I mean, the thing they will "ooh" and "aah" over is clearly a cheap knock-up instead of the real thing (whatever the real thing was supposed to be).

Idbatterim

Below are some of the thoughts i had on trying to solve our issues, I could elaborate on all points but it would take hours! And for some points their may be arguaments and counter arguaments, but I am putting them out there...

1.Lower minimum wage outside Dublin?
2.Banks or Gov Buy houses from elderly to release equity for their pensions etc (They would then rent the property back to the person / persons) Or they could move somewhere else.
3.Subsidised flights into Ireland (or scrap airport tax)
4.Lower top rate of tax
5.Domestic power generation to stop exporting of billions to foreign countries, and start possibly exporting energy.
6.Tackle high cost of doing business (mostly all goverment controlled)
7.Hospitality industry i.e accomodation, resteraunt and pubs / nightclub, costs to be analysed and action taken.
8.Good Business Bank, if banks wont lend to businesses, businesses can go to good bank, have their situation analysed and given loans if they have a good chance of survival, if not they could agree a restructuring and then release loan.
9.Tax all Goverment benefits.
10. Instead of throwing funding after problem has occurred, do it before, ie better schools, facilitites, education etc
11. Reform and privatise areas of the PS
12. Do not make welfare a "career choice" for some
13 Tackle upwards only rent reviews

The list goes on and on and on and on and on!