post 2012 what would flat rate work out at

alleyb

a lot of talk of ireland moving to flat rate per acre post 2012, does anyone have an idea what that rate would be

Sam Kade

Who said it was going to be flat rate? What they are saying is that it will go to active farmers.

leg wax

Sam Kade wrote: »

Who said it was going to be flat rate? What they are saying is that it will go to active farmers.

how will they stop it going to land owners who send in the maps but then lease out the land.

tabby aspreme

they know the active farmers from sheep census, cattle movements / registrations etc. WE ARE ALL BEING WATCHED :cool:

tvo

i seem to remember reading a report or article somewhere that if ireland moved to a flat rate it would be about €300/Hectare

leg wax

tabby aspreme wrote: »

they know the active farmers from sheep census, cattle movements / registrations etc. WE ARE ALL BEING WATCHED :cool:

that still will not stop it. you rent 100 acres transfer 50 cattle into his herd no you farm away for the year, he sells cattle takes rent out gives you hopefully whats left, is he active?

dryan

tvo wrote: »

i seem to remember reading a report or article somewhere that if ireland moved to a flat rate it would be about €300/Hectare

€300/Hectare would be a serious kick in the nuts to alot of active farmers out there.

tabby aspreme

They would probably put the onus on the farmer to prove they are farming with big penaltys on any false claims, one thing for sure there will be plenty of red tape with any new scheme to keep jobs in the dept. I would be happy 300 / hectare as i dont get that now for i began farming during the reference years

leg wax

i agree any money in post for nothing is a bonus. i have always said farmers should never get money from the eu.

tabby aspreme

leg wax wrote: »

i agree any money in post for nothing is a bonus. i have always said farmers should never get money from the eu.

The floodgates have just been opened:D:D:D, let the fun begin

tophat

Somewhat off topic but related: At our REPS course last week we were told everone is getting maps this year for the SFP. Areas deemed not forage/crops (i.e. scrub etc) will be outlined and removed from you're acerage. It will be up to you to fight your case on it then... even more fun/strife with the dept.

John_F

leg wax wrote: »

i agree any money in post for nothing is a bonus. i have always said farmers should never get money from the eu.

are you saying you would survive with no EU support at all, i.e. no intervention, import and export tariffs, no grants, no sfp? because the world price of milk last year worked out at 16-18 euro cent per litre

Europe has no adopted a policy of safe food and this means added costs to the system with more parties and staff involved. Europe has a stick and needs a carrot which are supports, if supports dropped in the morning so too would the willingness for farmers to fill out forms for this that and the other thing

do you agree?

leg wax

yes i would without any support from the eu as in sfp/ reps/ grants for buildings etc, i got out of dairy into suckling, i produce a product that the italians want, i will not produce a product for anyone in ireland because they cannot pay for it[not all weanlings at the top yet] doubling cow numbers at the moment. a cheque in the post is only prolonging the agony of small farmers who are producing a product that no one wants to pay for,if they cannot make money from the product that they produce then let them sell up their farms and the people that are left can make a even better livelihood, look at the sheep farmers are now starting to make money because of less ewe numbers, but what will happen, farmers will get back in and flood the market again.the cheque in the post always went to the wrong people as larry goodman .sorry for rant but it makes me think what are people at when they are on here wanting to know if the dept has paid out cheques this week.

reilig

I'd agree with you somewhat. Things will have to change in Irish farming. Abolishing the SFP would see my profits half. But I'm making a small profit on my farm unlike 90% of farmers out there. If market prices improved, I would be willing to work on without EU or Government support. But I'll take what I get at the moment and try to invest it back into the farm to prepare it for post 2013. I think the reason why a lot of people come on here wondering if the cheque has been paid is that they owe money and have people on their back about it (I know that's my scenario anyway).

But there's another hand dipping into the pocket of Irish farmers and you unwittingly gave the name of the birth father of this hand, Mr Goodman. All of the other meat factories jumped on his bandwagon and dipped into our pockets. The supermarkets then followed suit for all food products. The government and department of ag enabled this by putting restrictions in place which put small slaughter houses, dairy's and food processors out of business and leaving the above to charge what they liked and pay what they liked. Did you know that 80% of meat bought in any butcher's in the country has been slaughtered at one of the 10 big meat factories in the country??? 5% Comes from outside of Ireland and is rebranded as Irish meat. The other 15% comes from the few slaughter houses in the country that are still in operation after complying with the nonsensical dep of ag/food restrictions.

Our co-ops, all of which were set up by farmers for farmers have all turned into profit making machines with no consideration for farmer survival or profit. Co-ops were established to return the profits to the farmers, not to make huge profits which are to be reinvested into property or manufacturing in other countries with the hope of yielding even more profit. The farmer has been totally forgotten about.

Again, as I said, I would love to see the end of direct supports from the EU. But in order for this to happen, there will need to be competition introduced for the processors. Competition that will allow farmers to share the profits of their food. If tesco can sell a litre of milk for EUR1, why can farmers not establish farm shops to sell their milk at 80c?? I'll tell you why, there are too many restrictions in place to allow them to set up the production facilities or even to sell the milk. Years ago, most food was sold from the stall, the butcher or direct from the farm. The profit went straight back to the farm. We now have all these middle men who buy the food from us, put a gloss on it and sell it at twice the price that we get for it.

We need to get rid of the middle men, then irish farming will be profitable and we will be well able to survive without the SFP and reps etc.

How we do this is anyone's guess!!!!

Tora Bora

tophat wrote: »

Somewhat off topic but related: At our REPS course last week we were told everone is getting maps this year for the SFP. Areas deemed not forage/crops (i.e. scrub etc) will be outlined and removed from you're acerage. It will be up to you to fight your case on it then... even more fun/strife with the dept.

Didn't a lot of people get maps last year outlining non forage areas like roads, yards, not declared or properly declared when the map system came in x number of years ago. In some cases new roads etc, were built and not declared in the intervening years.

Many people were fined retrospectively. One person I know with a large holding was fined over €3k. Another guy, with a small holding €620.

Surely they are not coming back again this year for more!

John_F

leg wax wrote: »

.... their farms and the people that are left can make a even better livelihood, look at the sheep farmers are now starting to make money because of less ewe numbers, but what will happen, farmers will get back in and flood the market again.the cheque in the post always went to the wrong people as larry goodman .sorry for rant but it makes me think what are people at when they are on here wanting to know if the dept has paid out cheques this week.

reilig wrote: »

I'd agree with you somewhat. Things will have to change in Irish farming. Abolishing the SFP would see my profits half. But I'm making a small profit on my farm unlike 90% of farmers out there. If market prices improved, I would be willing to work on without EU or Government support. But I'll take what I get at the moment and try to invest it back into the farm to prepare it for post 2013. I think the reason why a lot of people come on here wondering if the cheque has been paid is that they owe money and have people on their back about it (I know that's my scenario anyway). .......


...........If tesco can sell a litre of milk for EUR1, why can farmers not establish farm shops to sell their milk at 80c?? I'll tell you why, there are too many restrictions in place to allow them to set up the production facilities or even to sell the milk. Years ago, most food was sold from the stall, the butcher or direct from the farm. The profit went straight back to the farm. We now have all these middle men who buy the food from us, put a gloss on it and sell it at twice the price that we get for it.

We need to get rid of the middle men, then irish farming will be profitable and we will be well able to survive without the SFP and reps etc.

How we do this is anyone's guess!!!!

legwax: totally agree with your point there on larry and such getting most of the cake, however you say that if more farmers flood the lamb market then prices drop . . simple math... BUT what happens when quota goes, three years ago the media were saying we need one more new zealand (production amount) each year to meet demand.... the demand dropped and look where we are now. So i believe that even if quotas go there will be some mechanism in place to protect european farmers and food supply, such as shares in their milk supplier. Also the USA has alot of heifers coming on this year to make the whole world supply even greater, Drought this summer in NZ however may lead to lower production there and the amount of conversions are slowing down.


reilig: totally agree that european policy has only created more and more chains of command and too many cooks, but how on earth do we reverse years of a culture of cheap food and dictation by processors and supermarkets, its on john bryans adgenda but im still waiting.

i also believe that the grants irish farmers get are put back into the economy such as student grants are given back to the government in tax on drink :P

a low cost system can work such as the new zealand system provided there is sufficient scale, something that is hard to do with high land prices in ireland... rip off republic

reilig

John_F wrote: »

reilig: totally agree that european policy has only created more and more chains of command and too many cooks, but how on earth do we reverse years of a culture of cheap food and dictation by processors and supermarkets, its on john bryans adgenda but im still waiting.

I suppose what I was suggesting was that farmers are already producing very cheap food in Ireland. We need to find a way of bypassing the processors and supermarkets to sell our food, which will still be cheap but all or most of the margin on the food will be returned to the producer. I don't know how this could be done, but it needs to be done. It used to happen as i detailed above, but food producing and sale restrictions prevent us from doing it anymore.

John_F

reilig wrote: »

I suppose what I was suggesting was that farmers are already producing very cheap food in Ireland. We need to find a way of bypassing the processors and supermarkets to sell our food, which will still be cheap but all or most of the margin on the food will be returned to the producer. I don't know how this could be done, but it needs to be done. It used to happen as i detailed above, but food producing and sale restrictions prevent us from doing it anymore.

in this shop (if it was a shop) farmers would have to hire staff, have various depts, and also sell other products if it is to get customers inn the door e.g. shampoos, it would take alot of work and bygod if the IFA are after giving up to the factories with the new price grid no hope they can aid in the start up of direct seling

eorna

In the near future in small farm the only way to make money is direct selling, you get more money than the factory (not hard) the buyer gets a cheaper price than supermarkets(not hard either) and everybody happy, you have to find and deal with costumers...that's the hard part..:D.