If THEY don't believe, how can anyone?

vibe666

this has been bugging me for a while so i thought it was time to put the question out there.

this whole thing with the pedo preists has been bothering me, but not because it was allowed to happen or that it was covered up (although those things bother me as well).

the reason it's bothering me so much is that these unforgivable, burn in hell, do not pass go 'sins' were committed by those people who are supposed to be the closest to their god.

now correct me if i'm wrong, but preists should be more certain than anyone that their god exists, given that they are supposed to be his messengers on earth, so how could any preist have any faith whatsoever that their chosen god exists and still commit such crimes that they can't possibly hide from their god that will lead to them burning in hell for all eternity?

i know i may be making this assumption, but it seems pretty logical to me that this should be the case.

given that assumption, how on earth could any member of that church still follow it knowing that their leaders could not possibly have any faith in the existence of their god?

I know there's been some trolling here recently, but this really isn't a troll post, it's a genuine problem i have that i just can't get my head around.

how can someone have faith in a religion when the actions of those who lead them have proven that they have none themselves?

iUseVi

We can't be sure what another person thinks in their head. But yes the priest's action suggest they did not truly believe I suppose.

How can others believe in the face of this? Well you posted on the Atheism forum for some reason, so the standard answer will be that there is no good reason to believe. Doesn't sound like thats what you wanted to hear though.

Fink Goddie

Yes you'd think knowing that the Catholic church was/is a paedo ring would put 99% of people off being a catholic anymore, but unfortunately its bread into people to believe, especially in rural Ireland, they still put priests on pedestals that they dont belong on.

vibe666

i just figured i'd get shot down in the Christianity forum, but i know there's a few lurking believers here so i thought there was a better chance of an answer without being smited from the safety of the A&A forum.

toiletduck

It is a pretty good question. One to which I have no answer.


Oh I think there was a thread about it before.

Lemegeton

its because of contradictions like this that i find religion as a whole so stupid.

robindch

vibe666 wrote: »

how can someone have faith in a religion when the actions of those who lead them have proven that they have none themselves?

Well, they haven't per-se proved that they have none themselves -- they've just carried out actions which are arguably incompatible with specific interpretations of certain general understandings. If the Vatican considered that these priests, and the hierarchy that protected them, were guilty of generally abandoning the religion, then the Vatican would excommunicate the lot of them. It hasn't done so.

While most religious believers in this country are unhappy about the actions of the priests concerned, most also don't seem excessively worried about what went on. It seems that they're able to compartmentalize the "message" of the religion on the one hand and the actions of the "messengers" on the other -- the imperfection of the one does not influence, nor is it influenced by, the perfection of the other.

However, if this is the case, then their claim that their religion is necessary for producing a good society falls flat on its face.

Fink Goddie

robindch wrote: »

Well, they haven't per-se proved that they have none themselves -- they've just carried out actions which are arguably incompatible with specific interpretations of certain general understandings.

Yes they have undoubtedly proved thay have no religion!!!

Arguably uncompatible?? How so??

Sam Vimes

Christianity teaches that we're all sinners by our very nature and no matter how much someone believes in Jesus they can't escape that. All you have to do is be really sorry afterwards and maybe pop into the confessional and you're back in the good books. The only thing you can do in christianity that won't be forgiven is not find a story about some Jewish bloke walking on water particularly plausible

Raping kids is very much in line with christian beliefs, it's what's expected of a sinner. It's just another example of the flawed nature that god has given us but which is nevertheless entirely our own fault

Fighting Irish

I don't know who i lol at more, the people who buy into religion or the people who have given up on religion because a few priests done something bad

Sam Vimes

Fighting Irish wrote: »

I don't know who i lol at more, the people who buy into religion or the people who have given up on religion because a few priests done something bad

I would agree that people shouldn't stop believing in a deity because of the actions of the church simply because one more horrific act to add to the massive pile of horrific acts carried out by human beings against other human beings does not mean a god doesn't exist but it's certainly a good reason to distance themselves from the church

Fink Goddie

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Raping kids is very much in line with christian beliefs

How??

Fighting Irish wrote: »

I don't know who i lol at more, the people who buy into religion or the people who have given up on religion because a few priests done something bad

A few priest?? More than a few!!!
Something bad is a bit of an understatment too!
The whole thing is rotten, if it was any other organisation it wouldnt still be up and running.

And its not just the priest thing that makes me not believe.

Religion is farcical in my opinion!

robindch

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Yes they have undoubtedly proved thay have no religion!!!

No, they haven't proved it. They just had sex with kids. That's got nothing to do with whether or not they believe that Jesus came to redeem mankind from the hell of sin, and that the Vatican is the sole authority on this earth permitted to speak for god. In one sentence, that's what the catholic religion is and what it requires you to believe.

Neither does the bible does not say that sex with people less than 18 is wrong -- in fact, arguably, it implies that in certain circumstances, it's permissible.

I think you're just making a common error in assuming that people are violating their religion when in fact, they're violating law or tradition. The three are really quite distinct and have to be thought about separately.

uncleoswald

Slightly off topic does anyone here know what the Bible specifically says about child abuse? Assuming it does cover such ground?

Fink Goddie

robindch wrote: »

No, they haven't proved it. They just had sex with kids. That's got nothing to do with whether or not they believe that Jesus came to redeem mankind from the hell of sin, and that the Vatican is the sole authority on this earth permitted to speak for god. In one sentence, that's what the catholic religion is and what it requires you to believe.

Neither does the bible does not say that sex with people less than 18 is wrong -- in fact, arguably, it implies that in certain circumstances, it's permissible.

I think you're just making a common error in assuming that people are violating their religion when in fact, they're violating law or tradition. The three are really quite distinct and have to be thought about separately.

So you're saying its not against religion to rape a child??

panda100

vibe666 wrote: »

the reason it's bothering me so much is that these unforgivable, burn in hell, do not pass go 'sins' were committed by those people who are supposed to be the closest to their god.
how can someone have faith in a religion when the actions of those who lead them have proven that they have none themselves?

Good question Op, something I have been thinking about myself!

My thoughts are that many Catholics believe that these men should not have been priests in the first place. Every Tom,Dick and Harry was entering the priesthood during this time because there was no other career options and it was seen as a respcted profession.
I think vast numbers of those entering the priesthood then had no real vocation to serve God and hence Catholics believe they wernt true priests, if that makes sense?

MrPudding

Fink Goddie wrote: »

So you're saying its not against religion to rape a child??

The only unforgivable act is to deny the holy spirit.

MrP

Fink Goddie

MrPudding wrote: »

The only unforgivable act is to deny the holy spirit.

MrP

“So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.” Matthew 7:12 NIV

Sam Vimes

Fink Goddie wrote: »

How??

As MrPudding says, the only unforgivable act is to deny the holy spirit. Beyond that it doesn't really matter whether you called someone a rude name or committed genocide, you're headed for hell.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

All you have to do is believe and you're grand. Sort of like the movie Hook where tinkerbell got sick when Peter said he didn't believe in fairies

robindch

Fink Goddie wrote: »

So you're saying its not against religion to rape a child??

No, it certainly isn't. Not that you'll heave ever heard that said in a church of course.

As I said above, the bible does not say that it's bad to have sex with a child. On the contrary, Deuteronomy 20:10-14 says quite clearly that if you arrive at a town with an army and they don't accept whatever you tell them, then it's ok to go in, kill all the men and keep the women, children, livestock and plunder "for your own enjoyment". You can interpret that however you want and there's a lot more of the same in the bible.

As MrPudding correctly points out, within christianity, the only sin that will never be forgiven is "sinning against the holy spirit", whatever that happens to be.

Sam Vimes

Fink Goddie wrote: »

“So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.” Matthew 7:12 NIV

Yeah it's the law but you can break the law and be forgiven, in fact you're expected to break the law because that's your "god given" nature. As long as you "repent" you get away with it

Zulu

Fink Goddie wrote: »

“So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.” Matthew 7:12 NIV

Breaking a rule doesn't prove a lack of faith or belief.

Fink Goddie

Sam Vimes wrote: »

All you have to do is believe and you're grand. Sort of like the movie Hook where tinkerbell got sick when Peter said he didn't believe in fairies

Its about as believable as the movie Hook alright yeh :pac::pac:

robindch wrote: »

On the contrary, Deuteronomy 20:10-14 says quite clearly that if you arrive at a town with an army and they don't accept whatever you tell them, then it's ok to go in, kill all the men and keep the women, children, livestock and plunder "for your own enjoyment".
.

Why anyone would follow the laws/beliefs of the bible then is beyond me!
Sick!

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Yeah it's the law but you can break the law and be forgiven, in fact you're expected to break the law because that's your "god given" nature. As long as you "repent" you get away with it

Such a load of bullsh1t really, isnt it!

panda100

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Yeah it's the law but you can break the law and be forgiven, in fact you're expected to break the law because that's your "god given" nature. As long as you "repent" you get away with it

I cant find it now,but isnt there some interesting statistic which shows that Catholics are more likey to commit serious criminal offences such as murder, because they can be resolved of their sins through reconcilation?

robindch

panda100 wrote: »

I cant find it now,but isnt there some interesting statistic which shows that Catholics are more likey to commit serious criminal offences such as murder, because they can be resolved of their sins through reconcilation?

Not sure about that, but it's fairly well-attested that the prisons are full of religious types and pretty much free of atheists.

vibe666

robindch wrote: »

Not sure about that, but it's fairly well-attested that the prisons are full of religious types and pretty much free of atheists.

no wonder we suffer from such a pronounced superiority complex.

Galvasean

robindch wrote: »

Not sure about that, but it's fairly well-attested that the prisons are full of religious types and pretty much free of atheists.

No atheists in foxholes prison.
A lot of cons tend to become more religious when in prison. There are a few reasons why this can occur:
1) They are genuinely repentent for their crimes
2) People are generally more religious when they need help
3) It has been observed many times that people with strong religious faith can get off more lightly than those without. Make friends with the prison chaplain and he will give you a good reference when you are up for parole.
Heck, if I was in jail and thought saying a few prayers would have them release me quicker you can bet that I'd do it!

That said, statistics also show that countries with higher percentages of non-believers have lower crime rates and that atheists are less likely to commit violent crime. So I guess the 'foxholes' argument does not realy stand up to a whole lot of scrutiny.

Fighting Irish

Fink Goddie wrote: »

A few priest?? More than a few!!!
Something bad is a bit of an understatment too!
The whole thing is rotten, if it was any other organisation it wouldnt still be up and running.

And its not just the priest thing that makes me not believe.

Religion is farcical in my opinion!

Ye i don't really care how many priests were involved in the wrong doing, that wasn't my point

rccaulfield

Because their sins can be forgiven- no problem to them. Doesn't point to them not believing at all 4 me!

Fink Goddie

rccaulfield wrote: »

Because their sins can be forgiven- no problem to them. Doesn't point to them not believing at all 4 me!

If they belived in what they were preaching about being a good person, they wouldnt do it!

aidan24326

iUseVi wrote: »

We can't be sure what another person thinks in their head. But yes the priest's action suggest they did not truly believe I suppose.

How can others believe in the face of this? Well you posted on the Atheism forum for some reason, so the standard answer will be that there is no good reason to believe. Doesn't sound like thats what you wanted to hear though.

Religious people seem to compartmentalise quite alot, so this is probably just more of the same. But whether the priests who abused children actually had real faith only they know. Some possibly didn't, and some no doubt went through all kinds of mental gymnastics in their head to somehow justify what they were doing. And as we know mental gymnastics is another thing that religious people tend to be adept at.

iUseVi

aidan24326 wrote: »

Religious people seem to compartmentalise quite alot, so this is probably just more of the same. But whether the priests who abused children actually had real faith only they know. Some possibly didn't, and some no doubt went through all kinds of mental gymnastics in their head to somehow justify what they were doing. And as we know mental gymnastics is another thing that religious people tend to be adept at.

Indeed, I know a person who is a professor in physics and is one of the smartest people I know. But they are also a christian and when they start saying things like "moved by the holy spirit" and "saved by grace" I am shocked the extreme amount of compartmentalisation that is possible.

Fink Goddie

iUseVi wrote: »

Indeed, I know a person who is a professor in physics and is one of the smartest people I know. But they are also a christian and when they start saying things like "moved by the holy spirit" and "saved by grace" I am shocked the extreme amount of compartmentalisation that is possible.

Just shows even really intelligent people can be brainwashed!

aidan24326

iUseVi wrote: »

Indeed, I know a person who is a professor in physics and is one of the smartest people I know. But they are also a christian and when they start saying things like "moved by the holy spirit" and "saved by grace" I am shocked the extreme amount of compartmentalisation that is possible.

Yeah it's something I've often wondered about, how somebody as smart as a physics professor can believe in things that I see to be highly irrational and in some cases obviously and even demonstrably nonsenical. Phyics and mathematics require alot of logical reasoning yet in this case the professor apparently chooses to turn off that part of his brain when dealing with matters of religion. It really is strange.

iUseVi

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Just shows even really intelligent people can be brainwashed!

Well some might cringe at the following but to me it shows the brain is well suited to that particular meme. I do think the differences in people's brain chemistry effects their religiosity but thats just a pet theory I have nothing to base that on.

*cringe* "You used the word meme!"

hiorta

'Brainwashing' is the sole purpose of theologians getting their 'truths' into schools asap.

Christianity, or the 'Greatest Hoax ever perpetrated upon Humankind in the last 1500 years' (Arthur Findlay) has never produced a shred of evidence in their favour, but torture, threat and obscene cruelty awaited those whose legitimate questions could not be answered.

When will we be informed as to the appointment of a Patron Saint of Paedophilia?

robindch

iUseVi wrote: »

"You used the word meme!"

No problems with that word here

Now, "ethos" is another matter...

Ghost Buster

If I remember my religion classes correctly a priest receives a calling from God. So this suggestes the question "Why is God calling paedophiles?":eek:

krudler

Ghost Buster wrote: »

If I remember my religion classes correctly a priest receives a calling from God. So this suggestes the question "Why is God calling paedophiles?":eek:

He's also calling homophobes, murderers, sociopaths, criminals and degenerates, apparently god created us in his image, if thats the case then god is a cnut

pH

vibe666 wrote: »

the reason it's bothering me so much is that these unforgivable, burn in hell, do not pass go 'sins' were committed by those people who are supposed to be the closest to their god.

As I remember, one of the first pedophiles to come to light, Fr Brendan Smyth was convinced that the abuse was not a major sin, I believe in Catholic parlance it's called a "venial sin".

In a telling phrase, one priest called child molestation "merely innocent pleasure", a blasphemous euphemism which rationalised child carnality as being only a venial -- and certainly not a mortal -- sin.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/archbishops-put-church-honour-before-children-1951090.html

Fink Goddie wrote: »

“So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.” Matthew 7:12 NIV

That seems less a prohibition of child-abuse, more advice that if you're engaged in fondling a child's genitals it's only fair to let them fondle yours too.

panda100

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Just shows even really intelligent people can be brainwashed!

Imo those who are deemed the most 'intelligent' in our society are actually the people who are least able to think for themselves. They can just retain a lot of facts on problems that have already been solved for them.
All my brothers and sisters are dentists and doctors,who got some of the highest points in the country, and all of them believe themselves to be 'good' catholics,same with the majority of the Irish people in my medicine class. They dont question anything to do with religion and just accept the way things are in the world. I know it may sound like I am generalising but thats just what I've notcied.

Those who have done well in the current education system usually dont think outside the box or question 'truths' that are laid down in front of them.

yaaaboy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg

Zillah

panda100 wrote: »

Imo those who are deemed the most 'intelligent' in our society are actually the people who are least able to think for themselves. They can just retain a lot of facts on problems that have already been solved for them.
All my brothers and sisters are dentists and doctors,who got some of the highest points in the country, and all of them believe themselves to be 'good' catholics,same with the majority of the Irish people in my medicine class. They dont question anything to do with religion and just accept the way things are in the world. I know it may sound like I am generalising but thats just what I've notcied.

Those who have done well in the current education system usually dont think outside the box or question 'truths' that are laid down in front of them.

I'd generally regard someone as intelligent if they have a high capacity for logical thinking, abstract reasoning, situational awareness and priority assessment (amongst many others). The people you're referring to are conformist enough to memorise the chosen knowledge and repeat it when required.

Are people like that really considered intelligent? I've seen pretty dumb people get 550+ in their leaving simply because they were willing to engage in rote memorisation of a staggering scale.

I suppose the problem is that we're referring to a definition of intelligence used by people who aren't all that intelligent :v:

strobe

vibe666 wrote: »

this has been bugging me for a while so i thought it was time to put the question out there.

this whole thing with the pedo preists has been bothering me, but not because it was allowed to happen or that it was covered up (although those things bother me as well).

the reason it's bothering me so much is that these unforgivable, burn in hell, do not pass go 'sins' were committed by those people who are supposed to be the closest to their god.

now correct me if i'm wrong, but preists should be more certain than anyone that their god exists, given that they are supposed to be his messengers on earth, so how could any preist have any faith whatsoever that their chosen god exists and still commit such crimes that they can't possibly hide from their god that will lead to them burning in hell for all eternity?

i know i may be making this assumption, but it seems pretty logical to me that this should be the case.

given that assumption, how on earth could any member of that church still follow it knowing that their leaders could not possibly have any faith in the existence of their god?

I know there's been some trolling here recently, but this really isn't a troll post, it's a genuine problem i have that i just can't get my head around.

how can someone have faith in a religion when the actions of those who lead them have proven that they have none themselves?

Because all of those priests were members of the atheist movement that infiltrated the church in order to molest kids and besmirch the good name of the sinless Roman Catholic Church, obviously.

Galvasean

yaaaboy wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg

Not too sure if that is particularly relevent in this particular thread, but man do i love that response.

vibe666

iUseVi wrote: »

I do think the differences in people's brain chemistry effects their religiosity but thats just a pet theory I have nothing to base that on.

looks like you could be right according to this: http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20100212/sc_livescience/linkstospiritualityfoundinthebrain

iUseVi

vibe666 wrote: »

looks like you could be right according to this: http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20100212/sc_livescience/linkstospiritualityfoundinthebrain

I'm always right! Sheesh. And I can always reinterpret my holy scriptures if new evidence comes to light.

vibe666

iUseVi wrote: »

I'm always right! Sheesh. And I can always reinterpret my holy scriptures if new evidence comes to light.

PRAISE THE LORD!!!

Xluna

Not all Catholics believe in a physical hell. I think Pope J.P.II defined it as a mental state of being eternally divorced from God,rather than demons sticking red hot pokers up your arse for all eternity.

Anyway I don't know the answer to that question and it's not one that bothers me really.

Xluna

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Raping kids is very much in line with christian beliefs, it's what's expected of a sinner. It's just another example of the flawed nature that god has given us but which is nevertheless entirely our own fault

DOES NOT COMPUTE.

Fink Goddie

pH wrote: »

That seems less a prohibition of child-abuse, more advice that if you're engaged in fondling a child's genitals it's only fair to let them fondle yours too.

It was in relation to rape!