Dublin Bus GPS?

Cianos

With the low cost of gps units nowadays, why don't Dublin Bus introduce some kind of gps based system to give real time updates of when to expect bus arrivals? The sat navs on each bus could feed in to a central database from which the commuter could check online where exactly the next bus was.

If they started with the most infrequent routes, where there's a bus every 45 mins or something like that, it'd make getting these buses way less painful. For example, the 84 bus route - where I used to often arrive 10 or 15 mins early to make sure I got it. If I could check where the bus was I'd know pretty much exactly what time I should leave at to get to the bus stop on time with minimum waiting around time (in the past, guessing if the bus is actually going to come or not.)

Victor

You mean put a GPS on the bus, connect that to some gadget that transmits it too a central computer and have various ways that people can check out the position of the bus and expected arrival time. Thats exactly what they are doing and they've a contract for more than a 100 units already and its being tried out on the 123.

Cianos

Victor wrote: »

You mean put a GPS on the bus, connect that to some gadget that transmits it too a central computer and have various ways that people can check out the position of the bus and expected arrival time. Thats exactly what they are doing and they've a contract for more than a 100 units already and its being tried out on the 123.

Okay, lthats good to hear! I did a search for "bus gps" but no threads showed. Why would they pilot it on the 123 route? That bus comes every 10 minutes or so doesn't it? Wouldn't it make more sense to start with the most infrequent routes so people can use the service to know when to go to the bus stop? The 123 is the kind of route you dont bother looking up the timetable for because you know that if you miss one you won't have to wait long for the next.

Also because there's less buses on the infrequent routes, it's easier to equip all the buses so you're getting more value out of the first 100 units or whatever.

colsku

nice comments op! I reckon the bus drivers may not be too happy being tracked like that though...

markpb

colsku wrote: »

nice comments op! I reckon the bus drivers may not be too happy being tracked like that though...

The project is already underway and the drivers haven't objected at all.

OP, as far as I know, buses aren't assigned to specific routes so it's not possible to put trackers on the 84 because it could be operated by any of the 100+ buses in it's depot.

Also, it's a very complicated project. The gps device needs to be fitted, the radio upgraded (so there's some way for the buses location to be sent somewhere), the backend software needs to be installed in an office, the displays need to installed on the street and a communication method between the office and the display needs to be provisioned. There is no excuse for the delay though.

Cookie_Monster

markpb wrote: »

The project is already underway and the drivers haven't objected at all.

I'm sure the union will manage to come up with some source of nonsense to insist on higher pay for driving buses with GPS when it goes live :rolleyes:

bmaxi

colsku wrote: »

nice comments op! I reckon the bus drivers may not be too happy being tracked like that though...

I can't see what objection there could be. The whole point of running to a schedule is, you are in a certain place at a certain time.

Cianos

markpb wrote: »

The project is already underway and the drivers haven't objected at all.

OP, as far as I know, buses aren't assigned to specific routes so it's not possible to put trackers on the 84 because it could be operated by any of the 100+ buses in it's depot.

Also, it's a very complicated project. The gps device needs to be fitted, the radio upgraded (so there's some way for the buses location to be sent somewhere), the backend software needs to be installed in an office, the displays need to installed on the street and a communication method between the office and the display needs to be provisioned. There is no excuse for the delay though.

I'd imagine the on-street displays would be the biggest cost and cause of delay. But why don't the just start it off as a purely online-based information service and to improve the bus text service too. Having to walk to the bus stop to see how long a bus will be kind of defeats the purpose.

Cookie_Monster

bmaxi wrote: »

I can't see what objection there could be. The whole point of running to a schedule is, you are in a certain place at a certain time.

the boses will now be able to keep tabson them so if they're standin around chattin and not leaving on time they'll get in trouble, unlike now where can just lie on the radio about location

noelfirl

Cianos wrote: »

I'd imagine the on-street displays would be the biggest cost and cause of delay. But why don't the just start it off as a purely online-based information service and to improve the bus text service too. Having to walk to the bus stop to see how long a bus will be kind of defeats the purpose.

The on street displays are supposed to come on stream, presumably if cooperation with the local authorities can be achieved, in 2011. The latter text and online update system is supposed to be rolled out this year.

More information here: http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/About-Us/Projects/RTPI/

serfboard

Cianos wrote: »

With the low cost of gps units nowadays, why don't Dublin Bus introduce some kind of gps based system to give real time updates of when to expect bus arrivals?

Indeed. Bus Eireann have been operating such a system for quite a while now.

Zoney

Cianos wrote: »

Okay, lthats good to hear! I did a search for "bus gps" but no threads showed. Why would they pilot it on the 123 route? That bus comes every 10 minutes or so doesn't it? Wouldn't it make more sense to start with the most infrequent routes so people can use the service to know when to go to the bus stop? The 123 is the kind of route you dont bother looking up the timetable for because you know that if you miss one you won't have to wait long for the next.

Also because there's less buses on the infrequent routes, it's easier to equip all the buses so you're getting more value out of the first 100 units or whatever.

I don't know but I wouldn't assume that it was a mindless decision. For example, perhaps it is in a sense a stress-test, as presumably on a high frequency route the accuracy needed on times/estimates would be tighter.

The pilot is presumably for the benefit of ironing out problems before a general roll-out, not specifically to give some passengers early benefit from the system.

EDIT: How did I miss that Bus Éireann service? I must give it a go - has anyone had any experience with it? Also what do they mean by standard SMS charges - do they mean just ordinary text message rate (if so that's fantastic) or some standard premium rate? A test look at the UL route seems to show an upcoming gap in service (these are the most infuriating aspect of using buses in Limerick, so if you can see in advance when they are - i.e. when not to bother with the bus and just walk or postpone a trip, that's fantastic).

bmaxi

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the boses will now be able to keep tabson them so if they're standin around chattin and not leaving on time they'll get in trouble, unlike now where can just lie on the radio about location

Undoubtedly, but surely even the NBRU wouldn't have the gall to consider that a valid bargaining point. :eek:

patrickbrophy18

I assume that a bus tracking system will be fitted to every stop in the network! The reason I am suggesting this is that the intermediate stops are the biggest priority for these systems. This is because it is near impossible to determine when a bus will arrive at an intermediate stop. I used to avail of the 38 and 38A buses to get out to Damastown where I could be waiting up to 40 minutes for a bus. A lot of bus drivers used to pull very sneaky moves on passengers on this route which was absolute farcilce. A lot of them didn't even stick to the timetable and pulled an "Ás Serbhis" when about 20 or so passengers where blatently waiting on the service to leave. A lot of them used pathetic excuses like "the timetable changed" to explain their personal short comings. The 38 and 38A are two examples of services where drivers have shown blatent disregard for it's passengers. At least if every bus in the fleet is fitted with a GPS and AVCL, bus drivers will be kept on their best behaviour.:D

bmaxi

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

I assume that a bus tracking system will be fitted to every stop in the network! The reason I am suggesting this is that the intermediate stops are the biggest priority for these systems. This is because it is near impossible to determine when a bus will arrive at an intermediate stop. I used to avail of the 38 and 38A buses to get out to Damastown where I could be waiting up to 40 minutes for a bus. A lot of bus drivers used to pull very sneaky moves on passengers on this route which was absolute farcilce. A lot of them didn't even stick to the timetable and pulled an "Ás Serbhis" when about 20 or so passengers where blatently waiting on the service to leave. A lot of them used pathetic excuses like "the timetable changed" to explain their personal short comings. The 38 and 38A are two examples of services where drivers have shown blatent disregard for it's passengers. At least if every bus in the fleet is fitted with a GPS and AVCL, bus drivers will be kept on their best behaviour.:D

It can happen, if buses are seriously delayed that they will be instructed to run " As Seirbhís ", for part or all of their route. GPS will not solve this, it will however, give controllers a better idea of how to manage the route.

Cookie_Monster

I doubt it will be at every stop due to sheer numbers, rather just the main one were the volume of commuters is highest

snappieT

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I doubt it will be at every stop due to sheer numbers, rather just the main one were the volume of commuters is highest

The roadside displays are going to be installed at the 1000 most-used bus stops in Dublin. How they're determining which stops are most-used I have no idea.

silverharp

tbh I'd be happy with an SMS system. In my case the main bus I use is the No 2/3 and I'm about 3min walk from the stop. If every stop has a unique no. (or some such ref) I should be able to get the ETA or the location of the nearest Bus.
At the moment its easier to alk 10min to the DART even if it means waiting 10min as there is less uncertainty

veryangryman

Silverharp2 wrote: »

tbh I'd be happy with an SMS system. In my case the main bus I use is the No 2/3 and I'm about 3min walk from the stop. If every stop has a unique no. (or some such ref) I should be able to get the ETA or the location of the nearest Bus.
At the moment its easier to alk 10min to the DART even if it means waiting 10min as there is less uncertainty

Linkpoping in Sweden has such a system (displays how far away bus is in time) which adjusts if he is being held up or gets a break in traffic. Very handy as your not left with your knob in your hand waiting in the freezing cold/pissing rain. If my bus is more than 5 mins away, i go indoors for the while

KevR

snappieT wrote: »

The roadside displays are going to be installed at the 1000 most-used bus stops in Dublin. How they're determining which stops are most-used I have no idea.

I presume they will only be installed at stops which have shelters (i.e. - the display unit hanging from the roof of the shelter) and stops which don't get vandalised on a regular basis..

Cianos

Silverharp2 wrote: »

tbh I'd be happy with an SMS system. In my case the main bus I use is the No 2/3 and I'm about 3min walk from the stop. If every stop has a unique no. (or some such ref) I should be able to get the ETA or the location of the nearest Bus.
At the moment its easier to alk 10min to the DART even if it means waiting 10min as there is less uncertainty

This is what I was thinking as well. Every bus stop could have a reference code which is displayed on the bus stop itself and on the website. You text the route number and bus stop code, so like "145 8" and the text tells you the estimated arrival time for the next 3 buses to that stop, based on average journey times for that time of day. This info could also be available on the site.

KC61

Cianos wrote: »

This is what I was thinking as well. Every bus stop could have a reference code which is displayed on the bus stop itself and on the website. You text the route number and bus stop code, so like "145 8" and the text tells you the estimated arrival time for the next 3 buses to that stop, based on average journey times for that time of day. This info could also be available on the site.

All of what you are looking for is in the pipeline. All the bus stops are now numbered.

The 123 was the pilot route for the AVLC (Automatic Vehicle Location and Control) system. Once the initial gremlins are ironed out I understand it will be rolled out across all of the Summerhill routes and then across the full fleet.

Real Time Passenger Information will follow from this.

Guy:Incognito

Cianos wrote: »

. Having to walk to the bus stop to see how long a bus will be kind of defeats the purpose.

The timetables are on the DB site are they not?

veryangryman

Stekelly wrote: »

The timetables are on the DB site are they not?

Plus the purpose is not just to say when the bus is next "scheduled". It will also clue you in on how late it may be running

Busy cities like Dublin badly need such information available. For instance, If the 72A is running half hour late and you need to be in town within half hour, it may not be worth your while getting on

markpb

Stekelly wrote: »

The timetables are on the DB site are they not?

Haha :-)

Yes but unless you have extensive local knowledge of each route (for example, I know the 17A takes 10 minutes to get from Kilbarrack to my house in the mornings but longer in the evenings) it's pretty useless. The point information on the timetables is worse than useless because it doesn't take into account levels of traffic at different times of the day.

Creamy Goodness

Silverharp2 wrote: »

tbh I'd be happy with an SMS system. In my case the main bus I use is the No 2/3 and I'm about 3min walk from the stop. If every stop has a unique no. (or some such ref) I should be able to get the ETA or the location of the nearest Bus.
At the moment its easier to alk 10min to the DART even if it means waiting 10min as there is less uncertainty

SMS is old hat, dead and buried.

When I lived in chicago the CTA had a website you could log onto with your smartphone/laptop which produced a google map with markers of all the busses on a route and clicking on one would tell you what bus that was i.e. the 10am 93 and whether or not it was on time or if it wasn't it would tell you how delayed it was. combined this with google maps traffic overlay it was a brilliant service.

after using this i honestly can't say that an SMS system would be worth it.

markpb

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

after using this i honestly can't say that an SMS system would be worth it.

SMSs are a lot more universal though. There are still a lot of phones that aren't internet enabled and that will take time to change.

Once the data is available, they should be pushing it out in as many forms as possible. On-street displays, SMSs, websites, mobile websites, iphone apps, google maps, etc.

Creamy Goodness

markpb wrote: »

SMSs are a lot more universal though. There are still a lot of phones that aren't internet enabled and that will take time to change.

Once the data is available, they should be pushing it out in as many forms as possible. On-street displays, SMSs, websites, mobile websites, iphone apps, google maps, etc.

ohh yes i totally agree, data should be delivered in as many forms as possible. i was more attacking the part where he/she said that they'd be happy with an sms service.

We need to think to the future with things like this and not just settle for one means of delivery.

silverharp

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

ohh yes i totally agree, data should be delivered in as many forms as possible. i was more attacking the part where he/she said that they'd be happy with an sms service.

We need to think to the future with things like this and not just settle for one means of delivery.

no offence taken I'm a pre twitter kinda person, the more flexible the better.

Capt'n Midnight

snappieT wrote: »

The roadside displays are going to be installed at the 1000 most-used bus stops in Dublin. How they're determining which stops are most-used I have no idea.

The ticket machines can tell how many people buy/validate tickets when they board the bus.

stop

I've noticed some new shiney poles going in at the bus stops (16/a/49) in Terenure - could this be part of the RTPI works?

KC61

stop wrote: »

I've noticed some new shiney poles going in at the bus stops (16/a/49) in Terenure - could this be part of the RTPI works?

Yes - these are being gradually installed by Dublin City Council.

L1011

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The ticket machines can tell how many people buy/validate tickets when they board the bus.

Makes a dangerous assumption that the driver is correctly advancing the stage on the Wayfarer...

sdanseo

Any driver even objecting to driving one of these buses should be sacked instantly.

KC61

sdonn wrote: »

Any driver even objecting to driving one of these buses should be sacked instantly.

I'm not sure where you're getting this impression from?

There is full agreement in place with drivers for the implementation of AVLC and it is already operating in full in four depots.

KD345

I noticed a lot of bus stops around Finglas have had a new brackets placed on the poles. This bracket contains a large 4 digit number. I presume this number represents the position of the stop for passengers to text and recieve information of the next bus?

Or they could be for something else entirely.

Victor

KD345 wrote: »

I noticed a lot of bus stops around Finglas have had a new brackets placed on the poles. This bracket contains a large 4 digit number. I presume this number represents the position of the stop for passengers to text and recieve information of the next bus?

All stops have a 4-digit identifer, not location as such. Indeed many have two different ones. I don't know why there was duplication.

MYOB wrote: »

Makes a dangerous assumption that the driver is correctly advancing the stage on the Wayfarer...

Well, AVLS should fix that.

KC61

Victor wrote: »

All stops have a 4-digit identifer, not location as such. Indeed many have two different ones. I don't know why there was duplication.

Every bus stop has been assigned an individual number by Dublin Bus which will be usable by passengers when the Real Time Passenger Information systems go live. They will (I understand) be able to check the live times of buses at a stop either online or via mobile phone.

Each bus shelter has always had a different number assigned to it by Adshel for their own internal purposes.

KC61

Some good news to report.

The on street Real Time Passenger Information display at Donnycarney Church has gone live this morning - pictures here. Similar displays are being installed by Dublin City Council at various locations.

At present the AVLC system is now operational in Ringsend, Clontarf, Summerhill and Harristown depots, and it will be routes from these depots that will see this rolled out first.

Still to go are Donnybrook 1 & 2, Phibsboro and Conygham Road.

devnull

Some good news at last with regards to on street information.

Do we know how many stops will get these and what the areas will be? Hopefully a good spread, rather than all being in one area unlike the bus shelters which tend to be on a vastly high number of south side locations than northside.

KC61

The spec is (if I recall correctly) for 1000 locations which have high usage across the network.

snappieT

I'm surprised they've rolled out the signs before making it accessible online first - hopefully that'll come sooner than later.
Very impressed.

KC61

It is still on trial - I doubt the online / mobile feature will release until the remaining four depots are completed.

The on-street facilities are only being rolled out on trial on routes whose depots have fully functioning AVLC in operation.

noelfirl

KC61 wrote: »

The spec is (if I recall correctly) for 1000 locations which have high usage across the network.

:eek: 1000. Good grief, here was me thinking it would be no more then a hundred or two. Do you know, does that include all counties, i.e. the current trial is limited to the city council area, are Fingal, DL&R and South Dublin signed up too at some stage?

Random

thanks for the linked photos. it seems there is a future for dublins public transport system!

KC61

noelfirl wrote: »

:eek: 1000. Good grief, here was me thinking it would be no more then a hundred or two. Do you know, does that include all counties, i.e. the current trial is limited to the city council area, are Fingal, DL&R and South Dublin signed up too at some stage?

Well ultimately it will be right across the network. The Quality Bus Network Office at Dublin City Council co-ordinates works across all the councils.

Initially - keep an eye out for the silver poles.

The final exact number of locations I am unsure of - but it will be primarily stops with good numbers boarding.

etchyed

KC61 wrote: »

The on-street facilities are only being rolled out on trial on routes whose depots have fully functioning AVLC in operation.

From the accounts of the people at the bus stop today, the screen is working fine and the timings are fairly accurate. But you keep emphasising that this is a trial. So I wouldn't imagine all 1000 of these things have been paid for yet and if the first few get destroyed by vandals there'll be reluctance to pay for more.

From the photo it looks like they're being put quite high up but I doubt that'll be much of a deterrent. The ones in London are inside the shelters themselves, well within reaching distance. I don't know how they survive.

Hopefully my pessimism will be proven wrong, and the relatively low rate of vandalism of Dublin Bikes (compared to Paris, for example) could be a good sign.

KC61

I'm emphasising that it is in the trial phase at the moment. Primarily because only one was switched on today!

The full rollout will follow next year once the full rollout of AVLC has been completed by Dublin Bus across their garages.

Cianos

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

ohh yes i totally agree, data should be delivered in as many forms as possible. i was more attacking the part where he/she said that they'd be happy with an sms service.

We need to think to the future with things like this and not just settle for one means of delivery.

I was suggesting SMS as the first deployment of real-time scheduling on request because close to 100% of bus users would be able to use the service.

Also people are used to texting for the static timetable, so it'd be natural enough to text for the real-time schedule (I wonder would the first service just be seamlessly replaced by the second or are they going to run two different numbers?).

An online version would be great, an iphone/Android app would make a lot of sense too. As many forms of data as possible as you said yourself.

Vic_08

Cianos wrote: »

I was suggesting SMS as the first deployment of real-time scheduling on request because close to 100% of bus users would be able to use the service.

Also people are used to texting for the static timetable, so it'd be natural enough to text for the real-time schedule (I wonder would the first service just be seamlessly replaced by the second or are they going to run two different numbers?).

Until the entire fleet is equipped to provide the data it would just result in unreliable and confusing data being sent with certain routes in real time and others just on terminus start times. It is far better to wait until it is 100% coverage and tested reliable before releasing it to the public. Las thing that is needed is bad publicity due to it being available before it is reliable.

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KC61

The plan is for online and mobile realtime information to be available but not until next year when AVLC is fully operational.