Forgiveness for Haiti?

Glenster

I was just reading this article

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/11/we-should-beg-haitis-forgiveness

And though I do agree with the sentiment that the west should aid Haiti (contraversial I know) I really dont agree with what this lady is saying.

The gist is that industrialised nations have forgiven Haiti its debt, but in reality we owed Haiti all along because of Slavery, US Occupation, Dictatorships, and Climate Change.

Now Climate Change and US Occupation I agree with, and the western support for Hatian Dictators I at least understand, though they could be applied to most third world countries. But paying them back for Slavery??

the author cites the arrival of a french fleet in 1825 who extorted 10 times the GDP of Haiti. But I thought this was in retaliation for the uprising 30 years earlier when the slaves turned their masters off the land.

Surely a tenant farmer, no matter how badly treated does not have the right to just take the landlords land for free. Ireland had to pay. And it was our land we were buying back.

do you agree with the argument that the colonising powers owe Haiti for slavery?

Morlar

Namoi Klein is wrong.

Nodin

Glenster wrote: »

Surely a tenant farmer, no matter how badly treated does not have the right to just take the landlords land for free.?

Slaves, not tenant farmers and Yep, they do.

Glenster wrote: »

Ireland had to pay. And it was our land we were buying back.

Just because we got shafted is no reason to impose shafting on others.

Glenster wrote: »

do you agree with the argument that the colonising powers owe Haiti for slavery?

Its too far gone now. However events subsequent to that are a different matter.

Joey the lips

Your notion on tenament farmers depends on a couple of things. How was the land removed. What was the natives forced to farm its touching on the corn suitation in ireland at the time of the famine.


Yes the world owes haiti imo

bonerm

Wrt to Carribean slaves for the most part it was west Africans themselves who sold the people into slavery in the first place, so perhaps it's they should who be seeking forgiveness at this time.

However (even tho I had nothing to do with slavery or Haiti's position in the world) I'll be sure to ask the Haitians forgiveness .... after I get an apology from Britain for decimating my country, robbing me of my native tongue and scattering my people to the four corners of the earth in search of a livlihood. :rolleyes:

mikom

Glenster wrote: »

The gist is that industrialised nations have forgiven Haiti its debt, but in reality we owed Haiti all along because of Slavery, US Occupation, Dictatorships, and Climate Change.

What's this "We" business.

pickarooney

'The West', as though somehow we are responsible for slavery carried out between Africans and Americans hundreds of years ago?

That's like blaming the Egyptians of 3050 for something I did yesterday.

digme

pickarooney wrote: »

'The West', as though somehow we are responsible for slavery carried out between Africans and Americans hundreds of years ago?

That's like blaming the Egyptians of 3050 for something I did yesterday.

Never a truer word spoken.

stovelid

Any word on whether Naomi has donated her salary and expense account to assuage the no-doubt enormous Western guilt she is stricken with?

digme

mikom wrote: »

What's this "We" business.

He's white, he's programmed to feel guilt at a very young age.

karma_

Yup, theres nothing like turning up on a piece of land, planting a flag and claiming it's yours.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k

m@cc@

pickarooney wrote: »

'The West', as though somehow we are responsible for slavery carried out between Africans and Americans hundreds of years ago?

That's like blaming the Egyptians of 3050 for something I did yesterday.

And the French, I should add.

mikom

m@cc@ wrote: »

And the French, I should add.

No, the linesman told the ref that he did not see any slavery, so thats ok.

Quazzie

m@cc@ wrote: »

And the French, I should add.

Unless there names were all Paddy and they were born in the Republic I don't feel guilty for nought the French do.

me-skywalker

but but but Your Honour Christopher Columbus is Mr America!

prinz

pickarooney wrote: »

'The West', as though somehow we are responsible for slavery carried out between Africans and Americans hundreds of years ago?

The Americans...oh and most of the rest of the developed world.

Glenster wrote: »

...do you agree with the argument that the colonising powers owe Haiti for slavery?

No. In the words of The Flower of Scotland.. "those days are passed now, and in the past they must remain."

Glenster

mikom wrote: »

What's this "We" business.

Irish landowners in the carribean? Maybe? They existed. Me and you never owned slaves, but thats not the point.

mikom

Glenster wrote: »

Irish landowners in the carribean? Maybe? They existed. Me and you never owned slaves, but thats not the point.

Wrong.
You and I never owned slaves.

Glenster

My question was mainly whether we think that the land taken by the slaves in 179-something became automatically theirs, and if it was wrong for the french to demand restitution?

Guy:Incognito

Quazzie wrote: »

Unless there names were all Paddy and they were born in the Republic I don't feel guilty for nought the French do.

I still would'nt be feeling guilt. Unless I did it myself, but at which point I still probably wouldnt care because I'd have put my morals aside to become a slave trader in the first place.

manc

bonerm wrote: »

.... after I get an apology from Britain for decimating my country, robbing me of my native tongue and scattering my people to the four corners of the earth in search of a livlihood. :rolleyes:

.....dont forget those Scandinavians (Vikings) who raided and pillaged our country before the Brits

Glenster

mikom wrote: »

Wrong.
You and I never owned slaves.

Sentance Fragment.

Linguo sleep now.

Guy:Incognito

mikom wrote: »

Wrong.
You and I never owned slaves.

and you never will with that attitude.

bonerm

Glenster wrote: »

Sentance Fragment.

"SentEnce fragment"
- Linguo 2.0 (Grammar nazibot upgrade)

Glenster

bonerm wrote: »

"SentEnce fragment"
- Linguo 2.0 (Grammar nazibot upgrade)

Oh Yeah? But whats with that e? Thats not very smarts.

bonerm

Glenster wrote: »

Oh Yeah? But whats with that e? Thats not very smarts.

Don't blame me. I'm only reporting what Linguo 2.0 said.

droidus

Glenster wrote: »

My question was mainly whether we think that the land taken by the slaves in 179-something became automatically theirs, and if it was wrong for the french to demand restitution?

If a thief steals something and you steal it from him does he alone have the right to restitution? What about the native Caribbean Indians who were exterminated by colonists?

Slaves have the right to gain their freedom by whatever means necessary. Workers have the right to compensation for their labour.

Slavers have no right to restitution - in fact France should be paying Haiti for the agony they inflicted on it's people. The only reason 'restitution' was paid to the French is because they threatened the use of force, a threat that was maintained by the US until the mid-20th century.

Glenster

droidus wrote: »

What about the native Caribbean Indians who were exterminated by colonists?

They lived there though, They did own the land, before they mysteriously died off and they left it to the European Slavers in their wills.

Seriously though The Hatians took land from the slavers, they dont have to pay for it because they are slaves? or becasue they took it from Slavers?

droidus wrote: »

Slaves have the right to gain their freedom by whatever means necessary. Workers have the right to compensation for their labour.

I'm always nervous when someone says "by whatever means necessary"

If we're talking about rights, do people not have the right to own land?

Glenster

Keep in mind that the original author is talking about a legal obligation to compensation. I'm sure noone here would argue that slavery is ok or that the europeans did nothing morally wrong. The dispute is over the ownership of Haiti and if the Haitians shouldn't have paid for it.

Gyalist

pickarooney wrote: »

'The West', as though somehow we are responsible for slavery carried out between Africans and Americans hundreds of years ago?

That's like blaming the Egyptians of 3050 for something I did yesterday.

That's because you don't realise that Ireland benefited directly from slavery. There's a good reason why Dublin was known as the "second city of the Empire".

Morlar

Reading that article you would have to wonder how Naomi Klein feels about israeli compensation to palestinians ? Considering that is contemporary to the age we currently live in.

droidus

Glenster wrote: »

I'm always nervous when someone says "by whatever means necessary"

If we're talking about rights, do people not have the right to own land?

The right to freedom is a fundamental human right which trumps the right to private property, the right to resist slavery, imprisonment and exploitation is a fundamental part of the UN charter.

Slavery turns this on its head - it states that the right to private property trumps all other rights... Slaves are private property, therefore slavers have a right to own them.

By colonising countries and exterminating the natives in order to exploit their land for profit and then kidnapping (and also murdering) hundreds of thousands of human beings to serve as slaves in order to exploit their labour for profit, slavers and planters lost all moral rights.

In most civilised nations, those found guilty of crimes often have property bought with the proceeds of their crimes confiscated. Thats what this is like. Except of course that the French never 'owned' the land in the first place and the crimes they committed were crimes against humanity.

Gyalist

bonerm wrote: »

Wrt to Carribean slaves for the most part it was west Africans themselves who sold the people into slavery in the first place, so perhaps it's they should who be seeking forgiveness at this time.

Absolutely untrue. Slavery did exist, but it was mostly as the spoils of war, etc.between tribes hostile to each other.
What the Europeans did was slavery on an industrial scale.

However (even tho I had nothing to do with slavery or Haiti's position in the world) I'll be sure to ask the Haitians forgiveness .... after I get an apology from Britain for decimating my country, robbing me of my native tongue and scattering my people to the four corners of the earth in search of a livlihood. :rolleyes:

ejmaztec

Gyalist wrote: »

That's because you don't realise that Ireland benefited directly from slavery. There's a good reason why Dublin was known as the "second city of the Empire".

Ireland, and other European countries with coastlines, as far north as Iceland, also had large numbers of people kidnapped into slavery, and carted off to North Africa (e.g. Baltimore, where pretty much the whole population disappeared overnight a few hunded years ago). Where do the victims' descendants claim the compo?

Burning Eclipse

I despise Naomi Kline, despise her... and everything that she claims to stand for.

droidus

Whilst certainly criminal and just as reprehensible, the incidence of Europeans captured in Europe and taken abroad as slaves is miniscule in comparison to the scale and character of the Atalantic slave trade.

Gyalist

ejmaztec wrote: »

Ireland, and other European countries with coastlines, as far north as Iceland, also had large numbers of people kidnapped into slavery, and carted off to North Africa (e.g. Baltimore, where pretty much the whole population disappeared overnight a few hunded years ago). Where do the victims' descendants claim the compo?

Did you see me make an argument in favour of compensation?

mikom

Gyalist wrote: »

There's a good reason why Dublin was known as the "second city of the Empire".

Shares that with Glasgow as well.

ejmaztec

Gyalist wrote: »

Did you see me make an argument in favour of compensation?

No, I was simply asking your advice in these cash-strapped times.

CuriousOne

pickarooney wrote: »

That's like blaming the Egyptians of 3050 for something I did yesterday.

Please excuse my ignorance but is that 3050 B.C or A.D?

Modern day society with its hierarchical and compartmentalised construct, can easily trace its origins back to its original engineers, the Egyptians. Now, I know that the accepted modern wisdom, promulgated by MacGyver in Stargate, is that the Great Pyramids were/are docking stations for space ships and the like, when it is far more likely that they, the pyramids, represented the power and wealth distributive structure of that ancient society and that same structure is still in existence today, or yesterday if you prefer.

I am assuming you were referring to 3050 B.C and acknowledge an entirely different reply would be appropriate if I assumed incorrectly.

Saint Ruth

Gyalist wrote: »

That's because you don't realise that Ireland benefited directly from slavery. There's a good reason why Dublin was known as the "second city of the Empire".

And you don't realise that the Irish were actually slaves too.

Around 60,000 Irish slaves were sent to Barbados...(there are still some left there...they're called "Red Legs").

As for the point, Haiti has been independent for nearly 200 years.
When should people stop blaming others for their own mistakes and take responsbility for their situation (obviously, that excludes the earthquake. I mean the mess the country was in before that).

ejmaztec

CuriousOne wrote: »

Please excuse my ignorance but is that 3050 B.C or A.D?
[/FONT]

It's definitely A.D.:P

Hyperbullet

So we've to pay compensation to Haiti even though the only Irish people to ever set foot on their soil are missionaries and Charlie Bird, and we also have to bail out Greece because their economy is fecked....

And as for the price of turnips.....:mad:

droidus

Saint Ruth wrote: »

And you don't realise that the Irish were actually slaves too.

Around 60,000 Irish slaves were sent to Barbados...(there are still some left there...they're called "Red Legs").

As for the point, Haiti has been independent for nearly 200 years.
When should people stop blaming others for their own mistakes and take responsbility for their situation (obviously, that excludes the earthquake. I mean the mess the country was in before that).

The 'mess' the country was primarily a result of the crippling economic burden placed on it by France, and in the 20th century, by direct and often brutal political and military intervention by the US.

Haiti has been screwed time and again by Western powers. Their history is absolutely appalling.

Morlar

Hyperbullet wrote: »

So we've to pay compensation to Haiti even though the only Irish people to ever set foot on their soil are missionaries and Charlie Bird, and we also have to bail out Greece because their economy is fecked....

And as for the price of turnips.....:mad:

Greece is in the EU. Their problems are contemporary not being blamed on events of 1804. If the greek economy collapses the euro will be in crisis & this will affect us too. Any financial aid from the euro countries to greece will be dependent on the greek govt tackling greek public sector unions as there is no way Irish taxpayers, or French taxpayers, will donate to the greek public sector wage & pensions bill. In the same way that french & german taxpayers simply will not pay for our public sector wages hike and pensions bill if our economy degrades to the same level as the greek.

Morlar

droidus wrote: »

The 'mess' the country was primarily a result of the crippling economic burden placed on it by France,

In 1804 ? That is really the primary reason they have a basket case economy in 2010 ?

droidus wrote: »

and in the 20th century, by direct and often brutal political and military intervention by the US.

Haiti has been screwed time and again by Western powers. Their history is absolutely appalling.

The Haitians should take some level of responsibility for their own condition prior to the earthquake of 2010 - blaming it on events of 1804 is not convincing. Papa doc was of our lifetimes and did more damage and he was one of their own.

prinz

droidus wrote: »

The 'mess' the country was primarily a result of the crippling economic burden placed on it by France, and in the 20th century, by direct and often brutal political and military intervention by the US. Haiti has been screwed time and again by Western powers. Their history is absolutely appalling.

Nothing to do with the homegrown scum then no?

Naomi Klein is a fuking plank.. The type of person who turned to journalism because there was no other options left and has somehow landed a position where she can talk complete shite and have people listen.

ejmaztec

droidus wrote: »

Whilst certainly criminal and just as reprehensible, the incidence of Europeans captured in Europe and taken abroad as slaves is miniscule in comparison to the scale and character of the Atalantic slave trade.

The African continent was riddled with slavery on a grand scale before the Europeans showed up in great numbers. It then became a joint venture operation between interested parties on both continents, leading to the huge trans-Atlantic slave-trade which followed.

droidus

Morlar wrote: »

In 1804 ? That is really the primary reason they have a basket case economy in 2010 ?

You should have a look at how third world debt works. Its never ending. The Haitians only finished paying France back in 1947.

The Haitians should take some level of responsibility for their own condition prior to the earthquake of 2010 - blaming it on events of 1804 is not convincing. Papa doc was of our lifetimes and did more damage and he was one of their own.

Is this the same Papa Doc whose repressive dictatorship was supported by the US from '63 until his death in '71? His son was then supported until '86 and the US continued to support military and right wing elements throughout the '90s culminating in their kidnap of Aristide in 2004.

droidus

ejmaztec wrote: »

The African continent was riddled with slavery on a grand scale before the Europeans showed up in great numbers. It then became a joint venture operation between interested parties on both continents, leading to the huge trans-Atlantic slave-trade which followed.

This simply isnt true. There was slavery in Africa (in West Africa in particular), but the slave trade turned a local byproduct of war into a massive industry.