Conclusive Scientific proof against religions and the afterlife.

lostboy

well some of you have seen my other threads in christianity and I said i would start one here also.

other thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64428115#post64428115

So what im looking for here is conclusive proof that there is nothing when we die or things that strongly suggest it.

For those of you that have not seen my other posts I would like to say in posting this I am posting it as someone who is agnostic and constantly questioning an afterlife.

the_syco

lostboy wrote: »

So what im looking for here is conclusive proof that there is nothing when we die or things that strongly suggest it.

The film "Flatliners" comes to mind... and I can't see someone doing that to get conclusive proof, or even if they have, if it would be taken as "proof".

GLaDOS

Religions have so many different beliefs that they can literally come up with anything and challenge science to disprove it, when all that is needed is a good dose of common sense

Flamed Diving

Proof of nothing is impossible, sorry.

Daftendirekt

I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed.

For starters 'conclusive proof' doesn't exist outside of mathematics. The best we can hope for is evidence supporting a particular proposition.

Most people here (I'd imagine) adhere to the null hypothesis, which basically means sticking with the default position that there is no afterlife until some evidence comes to light which suggests otherwise.

Since sufficient evidence has never been presented to support the idea that life continues after death, and since there doesn't seem to be any part of us that could survive after we've been physically destroyed, the most honest position to take on the subject of the afterlife is 'I don't know for sure, but I'm not holding my breath.'

toiletduck

I'm kinda curious as to how we would "prove" it to you.


e.g.
*Attempts to contact the dead*
*No response*

There's nothing after this life Q.E.D.

ChocolateSauce

lostboy wrote: »

well some of you have seen my other threads in christianity and I said i would start one here also.

other thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64428115#post64428115

So what im looking for here is conclusive proof that there is nothing when we die or things that strongly suggest it.

For those of you that have not seen my other posts I would like to say in posting this I am posting it as someone who is agnostic and constantly questioning an afterlife.

As has been said, if you're looking for conclusive proof of anything to do with reality you're setting your sights too high.

Furthermore, it is impossible to prove a negative, so no one can prove that something doesn't exist; people can only fail to prove something exists.

I take the view that absence of evidence is evidence of absence, but I must always reserve ultimate judgement.

Flamed Diving

Jakkass, with the ever sneaky 'thanks' contribution. At least it's better than having to put up with his banal ramblings.

Ickle Magoo

Just how do you propose that living people provide you with;

lostboy wrote: »

conclusive proof that there is nothing when we die

I can't prove nothing exists, how does one prove nothing, the onus of proof lies with those who claim in the positive. The distinct lack of evidence would suggest to me that when my brain dies, I die with it. Obviously, until I'm dead I won't know for sure and once I'm dead, I have no way of coming back & telling you one way or the other.

drkpower

lostboy wrote: »

So what im looking for here is conclusive proof that there is nothing when we die or things that strongly suggest it.

I have absolute and completely certain incontravertible conclusive proof that there is no God/afterlife/fairies. However, I am not going to share it with anyone. And if you dont believe me, I challenge you to prove that I dont have such proof.

pH

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

As has been said, if you're looking for conclusive proof of anything to do with reality you're setting your sights too high.

Furthermore, it is impossible to prove a negative, so no one can prove that something doesn't exist; people can only fail to prove something exists.

I take the view that absence of evidence is evidence of absence, but I must always reserve ultimate judgement.

This is another one of these much repeated memes, that just ain't true. As you've already said (in the first paragraph) that proofs of any type positive or negative are not possible, I'm taking you to mean you're relaxing your definition of proof when you say you "can't prove a negative".

In fact, it's what science does all the time, take an idea, say Luminiferous aether, you do an experiment, and you *do* prove a negative: that it doesn't exist.

In fact, in science it's the opposite that's true, you can't prove a positive, no matter how much experimental evidence you gather, none of it would prove aether exists, yet one experiment that contradicts it does prove the negative.

Turtwig

OP,
Firstly, it is not a question of science. Secondly, there are certain things in life that you just cannot prove either. You're asking me to prove to you that there is no afterlife. I take it then, that you've accepted the proof that shows we're not living in the Matrix. Or the proof that disproves the idea that the universe was created last Thursday and that you've were given the illusion of having memories. Such is the nature of reality that you cannot prove the existence of God, nor can you disprove it. All you can do is say whether it is reasonably plausible that God does or does not exist. In my case I'd say there is strong reasonable doubt that God, the afterlife, and any other supernatural stuff doesn't exist. As I'm not the one making the claims of such existences I don't have to prove jack sh1t.

Turtwig

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I take the view that absence of evidence is evidence of absence, but I must always reserve ultimate judgement.

No it doesn't.

Outside the realm of mathematics, there is no such thing as absolute proofs: You can't absolutely prove a negative nor can you absolutely prove a positive.
Absence of evidence is not proof of absence; aether may still exist. It's just not really that plausible anymore.

Sam Vimes

lostboy wrote: »

So what im looking for here is conclusive proof that there is nothing when we die or things that strongly suggest it.

You'll be disappointed I'm afraid, as people have said. As for your conclusive proof in the christianity forum, if it was conclusive proof that a prediction had been made then every Israelite alive would have been waiting at that manger for the predicted Messiah to be born and there wouldn't have been a shadow of a doubt as to who he was. As with all prophecies of this nature they are vague enough to fit a wide variety of scenarios

And besides that, the old testament prophecies were commonly known before Jesus was born, I don't think I've ever seen anyone dispute that so this "proof" only proves something I already knew. Do you really see no possible way other than divine involvement that a group of 12 people could have written down that their favourite cult leader fulfilled these prophecies? Say that today on this thread I make a prophecy that a car will be crashed into the spire on O'Connell street and three weeks from now Ickle Magoo, having read my post, crashes a car into the spire. Is that miraculous?

Ickle Magoo

*makes mental note not to drive near spike for next couple of weeks just in case*

liamw

What a silly argument. "You can't disprove X, therefore X is a valid belief".

There's an INFINITE amount of things you could believe but what's the point in believing in them unless there is positive evidence to support them?

I'm tempted to use an FSM analogy, but I'll refrain.

My question to you would be, why do you think there is an afterlife? What evidence do you have to support it? If brain activity ceases when you die, why should it be any different than before you were born?

lostboy

someone said in another thread,it has been proven that when you die your consciousness ceases to exist and you have nothing to worry about with death because it was just like before you were born.

obviously there is no conclusive proof either way so maybe the thread title is a bit misleading but i did not know any other title to stick on it.

Sam Vimes

lostboy wrote: »

someone said in another thread,it has been proven that when you die your consciousness ceases to exist and you have nothing to worry about with death because it was just like before you were born.

obviously there is no conclusive proof either way so maybe the thread title is a bit misleading but i did not know any other title to stick on it.

While we can't prove anything about this conclusively, all of the evidence suggests that your consciousness is a result of the electrical activity in your brain, therefore no activity=no consciousness. I see no more reason to ask where we go when we die than to ask where windows goes when I turn my computer off

Turtwig

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I see no more reason to ask where we go when we die than to ask where windows goes when I turn my computer off

Brilliant, unfortunately I have to play devil advocate here. Do I not reincarnate my computer when I turn it back it on. Does it not remember everything that it was told remember?

Yeah, but the point was electrical acitivity. When there's no electricity Windows can't remember anything.

Sam Vimes

Malty_T wrote: »

Brilliant, unfortunately I have to play devil advocate here. Do I not reincarnate my computer when I turn it back it on. Does it not remember everything that it was told remember?

Yeah, but the point was electrical acitivity. When there's no electricity Windows can't remember anything.

I don't know exactly how the brain works. I'm not sure if your memories are stored electrically or chemically so it could be that if we had the technology to switch back on the activity in a brain they'd come back exactly as they were. Or it could be that it's stored electically like ram and once the power is cut it's gone

Either way if your brain decomposes or you take an axe to your hard drive it's gone for good

(please don't bring up data recovery software :P)

Turtwig

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I don't know exactly how the brain works. I'm not sure if your memories are stored electrically or chemically so it could be that if we had the technology to switch back on the activity in a brain they'd come back exactly as they were. Or it could be that it's stored electically like ram and once the power is cut it's gone

Either way if your brain decomposes or you take an axe to your hard drive it's gone for good

(please don't bring up data recovery software :P)

The point I was trying to make Sam. (Rather badly.) Was that the computer analogy works best when you consider Windows as the "flow" of electrons (electricity) within the components of the computer. This electricity is still there when the computer has been switched off. If you remove this electricity or damage the pattern of it (e.g via a strong magnetic field.) then the computer no longer has the same memory. It's the same for the human brain. Disrupt the neurons and memory is altered; cease the neurons firing altogether and the mind and memory is gone forever.

Does that make it any clearer?

ChocolateSauce

pH wrote: »

This is another one of these much repeated memes, that just ain't true. As you've already said (in the first paragraph) that proofs of any type positive or negative are not possible, I'm taking you to mean you're relaxing your definition of proof when you say you "can't prove a negative".

In fact, it's what science does all the time, take an idea, say Luminiferous aether, you do an experiment, and you *do* prove a negative: that it doesn't exist.

In fact, in science it's the opposite that's true, you can't prove a positive, no matter how much experimental evidence you gather, none of it would prove aether exists, yet one experiment that contradicts it does prove the negative.

I certainly should be more consistent, shouldn't I? In the first paragraph I was referring to proof on a mathematical scale, in the second one I was referring to proof on a much more down-to-earth scale. That word (proof) can certainly get people into trouble, can't it? Best to avoid using it when speaking about science....

Malty T wrote:

Absence of evidence is not proof of absence; aether may still exist. It's just not really that plausible anymore

Certainly not proof, I said evidence. If you look and can't find any evidence for something, it is IMO evidence that the thing being searched for isn't there. This line is best applied to god!

Sam Vimes

Malty_T wrote: »

The point I was trying to make Sam. (Rather badly.) Was that the computer analogy works best when you consider Windows as the "flow" of electrons (electricity) within the components of the computer. This electricity is still there when the computer has been switched off. If you remove this electricity or damage the pattern of it (e.g via a strong magnetic field.) then the computer no longer has the same memory. It's the same for the human brain. Disrupt the neurons and memory is altered; cease the neurons firing altogether and the mind and memory is gone forever.

Does that make it any clearer?

Na I think you've had one too many magnetic fields :P

Yeah I get you now

Dades

lostboy wrote: »

someone said in another thread,it has been proven that when you die your consciousness ceases to exist

Someone in the other thread was wrong.

However in my view and that of other posters here, it would seem the most logical belief that when your brain dies - so does your consciousness. A sharp crack on the head with a baseball bat would back this up.

rccaulfield

Iwill, but only after u prove that theres no such thing as a dreglactorglurby.

Ciaran500

rccaulfield wrote: »

Iwill, but only after u prove that theres no such thing as a dreglactorglurby.

Google hasn't heard of it so it doesn't exist.


QED

oeb

lostboy wrote: »

well some of you have seen my other threads in christianity and I said i would start one here also.

other thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64428115#post64428115

So what im looking for here is conclusive proof that there is nothing when we die or things that strongly suggest it.

For those of you that have not seen my other posts I would like to say in posting this I am posting it as someone who is agnostic and constantly questioning an afterlife.

well some of you have seen my other threads in After Hours and I said i would start one here also.

So what im looking for here is conclusive proof that god/gods exist.

For those of you that have not seen my other posts I would like to say in posting this I am posting it as a thinly veiled attempt to troll.


I'll tell you what OP. You answer my question with an answer I accept, and I'll answer yours.

Galvasean

lostboy wrote: »

someone said in another thread,it has been proven that when you die your consciousness ceases to exist and you have nothing to worry about with death because it was just like before you were born.

Dades wrote: »

Someone in the other thread was wrong.

Sounds a lot like my post here (the second part, not the football bit). However, plase be noted that I did NOT say it had been proven.

Zillah

lostboy wrote: »

someone said in another thread,it has been proven that when you die your consciousness ceases to exist and you have nothing to worry about with death because it was just like before you were born.

obviously there is no conclusive proof either way so maybe the thread title is a bit misleading but i did not know any other title to stick on it.

There's no proof, but there is evidence to suggest we cease to exist. For example, we know that damage to the brain causes proportional damage to the conciousness. Put a railroad spike through the right part of your brain and I can turn you into a selfish, abusive asshole (this has actually happened). Cut out your frontal cortex and you lose the ability to think in higher orders, you are essentially less sentient.

The evidence would suggest that our conciousness is dependent on our brain, ergo, when the brain no longer exists neither does our conciousness.

By its very nature, the question precludes a solid answer. All we can tell you is that there is no evidence for the afterlife, and anyone who has claimed otherwise has been shown to be lying or confused.

iUseVi

Zillah wrote: »

There's no proof, but there is evidence to suggest we cease to exist. For example, we know that damage to the brain causes proportional damage to the conciousness. Put a railroad spike through the right part of your brain and I can turn you into a selfish, abusive asshole (this has actually happened). Cut out your frontal cortex and you lose the ability to think in higher orders, you are essentially less sentient.

The evidence would suggest that our conciousness is dependent on our brain, ergo, when the brain no longer exists neither does our conciousness.

By its very nature, the question precludes a solid answer. All we can tell you is that there is no evidence for the afterlife, and anyone who has claimed otherwise has been shown to be lying or confused.

lostboy, if you have some time on your hands I highly recommend this essay: http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/ghost.html

Its really long indeed but I think it will answer a lot of your questions, and you will I'm sure find lots of the info useful in later debates. Its well worth the effort. (No, I don't know the guy who did it, its justs that good.)

Antbert

Surprisingly, I'm not here to offer to you lots of proof against there being a god. Except to echo the whole Celestial Teapot, proving a negative argument (just in case you haven't heard of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

I do like the computer analogy, and the argument against it about switching it back on. The whole computer thing was interesting, basically.

Tim Robbins

lostboy wrote: »

well some of you have seen my other threads in christianity and I said i would start one here also.

other thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64428115#post64428115

So what im looking for here is conclusive proof that there is nothing when we die or things that strongly suggest it.

You won't get conclusive proof for anything outside maths. When you start thinking scientifically and logically, every major claim by every religion looks very far fetched.

vibe666

drkpower wrote: »

I have absolute and completely certain incontravertible conclusive proof that there is no God/afterlife/fairies. However, I am not going to share it with anyone. And if you dont believe me, I challenge you to prove that I dont have such proof.

dude, seriously you could totally start a religion with an attitude like that!

there's only one way for you to conclusively get proof one way or the other, but unfortunately the method is known to be somewhat, err...'terminal' if you get my meaning.

Rb

I believe the burden of proof is on those making the claims to existence.

However that's something that Christians just do not get.

Flamed Diving: Absolutely.

vibe666

Rb wrote: »

I believe the burden of proof is on those making the claims to existence.

that's the whole problem, when you have something like "faith" you have no need of proof. the whole thing was built from the ground up by the church for their disciples to not question the 'word of god'.

that's the way it is, it's the absolute truth beyond reproach, therefore you have no need to question is.

oh, you do question it do you? well, in that case you must be a witch/demon/heretic etc. etc. BURN THEM! and so on and so forth.

a few hundred years of that and you have your market pretty much sewn up. if you don't question the absolute truth of the word of your god then things like the actual 'truth' and 'science' and 'facts' are meaningless and just the devils way of trying to lead you away from the path.

rccaulfield

Ciaran500 wrote: »

Google hasn't heard of it so it doesn't exist.


QED

Prove it!;)