Categories of Membership / Interclub Golf

ShriekingSheet

Are 5 day members considered equally for teams as full members in people's clubs? What about juniors, students and other categories?

It's hard to know in a way. From one POV it's a golf competition, so the best golfers should play. But in another way, these days you have annual and 5 day members breezing in and out of clubs which could be disruptive to pairings and teams that have built up experience and spirit over the years.

I'm on the fence.

f22

A friend of mine is a 5 day member of a very well known Dublin club. He was sidelined purely because he was a 5 day and the fact it may upset certain other players.

This was despite the fact he would wipe the floor with 90% of the people they played.

GreeBo

f22 wrote: »

he would wipe the floor with 90% of the people they played.

Does that not mean his handicap is too high?
(Serious question btw)

ShriekingSheet

f22 wrote: »

A friend of mine is a 5 day member of a very well known Dublin club. He was sidelined purely because he was a 5 day and the fact it may upset certain other players.

This was despite the fact he would wipe the floor with 90% of the people they played.

So in your place are 5 days involved?

I think a lot of the time, because the team captain's are guys who volunteer who may not have a strong view one way or the other, but they understandably don't want the hassle of complaints from people if they do pick a 5 day member.

f22

No, he was on a junior cup panel but wasn't played because i was felt it may upset some. Some they played may struggle to get on a metro cup team.

No 5 day in my club.

Daithio9

Only full members are considered for interclub competitions in our club and rightly so imo.

jimjo

You have to draw the line somewhere. I’m all for picking the best team but…

If you want to play team comps that are played on weekends surely this would require 7 day membership…? You will be playing on Saturday or Sundays which if you chose 5 day membership you are not entitled to do. I have sympathy for a good golfer who could really be useful on a Junior cup team and is a 5 day member but how would your normal member who may pay €1900 a year to be a 7 day member compared to that of €800 to be a 5 day member feel? There’s €1,100 in the difference, they pay this extra amount to entitle them to play weekends. If you want to play on weekends like the 7 day members, pay the 7 day rate like everyone else. Might ring up VHI and ask for the extra benefits of plan C when I’m paying for Plan B, I would like to hear their response...

Might ask my club can I be become a 5 day member and then ask by the way stick me down for all team competitions will ya, not messing here, would love to do it to see the looks on their faces!!!

IITYWYBMAD

GreeBo wrote: »

Does that not mean his handicap is too high?
(Serious question btw)

From the POV of a "team comp" not at all.

ShriekingSheet

Yeah, agree the above points are very valid. Also, politics and fees aside, the main vehicle through which any player stakes a claim in a team is through performance in major competitions such as Medals, Captain's Prize etc... which a 5 day has signed up not to play in.

jimjo wrote: »

You have to draw the line somewhere. I’m all for picking the best team but…

If you want to play team comps that are played on weekends surely this would require 7 day membership…? You will be playing on Saturday or Sundays which if you chose 5 day membership you are not entitled to do. I have sympathy for a good golfer who could really be useful on a Junior cup team and is a 5 day member but how would your normal member who may pay €1900 a year to be a 7 day member compared to that of €800 to be a 5 day member feel? There’s €1,100 in the difference, they pay this extra amount to entitle them to play weekends. If you want to play on weekends like the 7 day members, pay the 7 day rate like everyone else. Might ring up VHI and ask for the extra benefits of plan C when I’m paying for Plan B, I would like to hear their response...

Might ask my club can I be become a 5 day member and then ask by the way stick me down for all team competitions will ya, not messing here, would love to do it to see the looks on their faces!!!

But if you talk about money paid, do you not have to apply the same to Juniors & Students? It seems every succesful team now has a mix of ages, including teenagers these days. As a product of that kind of inclusive junior policy I know it's brilliant. But purely talking about money, can someone logically argue it's okay for a junior to pay €250 and play, and a 5 day player to pay €750 and be prohibited?

f22

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

But purely talking about money, can someone logically argue it's okay for a junior to pay €250 and play, and a 5 day player to pay €750 and be prohibited?

Valid point there, consider how many teams out there you see fielding teams of nippers.

ShriekingSheet

f22 wrote: »

Valid point there, consider how many teams out there you see fielding teams of nippers.

Yeah, as I said, I'm not arguing one way or the other - just some awkward elements to it.

You could be scheptical and point out that juniors have been welcomed so much in recent years, as it's become clear that a young 'un flying down the h'caps is a useful tool in winning trophies.

I've seen it myself, in 2002, Club A, with no junior policy or interest in junior golf, gets hammerd in Barton Cup by Club B, who field a number of teenagers. Club A notices this, and spends a year developing a Junior Programme, rewrites it's rules governing Junior eligibilty for Medals, teams etc and shows up in 2003 with an average age of 22 years.

There's a lot in that... my take on it is it got golf clubs to a good place, if for slightly ulterior reasons

Note that there's also a bananas element in some clubs, who've done a complete 180, and now discriminate against adult players in things like Junior Cup, thinking that kids are the only way to win. Not the case either!

jimjo

Everyone’s going to have a different point of few here.

When it comes to Juniors and students (I think for some team comps you need be over 18, so not sure if they are still classed as juniors) but yes I feel they should be allowed. I know in a way that contradicts my earlier comment but these are generally people who are still in full time education and unable to earn an income. Again people could argue the point by saying some 5 day members are unemployed and aren’t earning anything. Once you leave full time education you enter the senior category and chose if you want to become a 5 or 7 day member.

It’s a tricky subject...

ShriekingSheet

jimjo wrote: »

Everyone’s going to have a different point of few here.

When it comes to Juniors and students (I think for some team comps you need be over 18, so not sure if they are still classed as juniors) but yes I feel they should be allowed. I know in a way that contradicts my earlier comment but these are generally people who are still in full time education and unable to earn an income. Again people could argue the point by saying some 5 day members are unemployed and aren’t earning anything. Once you leave full time education you enter the senior category and chose if you want to become a 5 or 7 day member.

It’s a tricky subject...

Yep, it's a mess. For the record, I also fully agree with the inclusive Junior policy.

In my experience, many little in-team squabbles over issues like this have scupperd other-great teams' chances of success.

Russman

You, its a very difficult one alright - don't know what my opinion is on it really, they are two very valid points of view.

I guess it depends on how important each individual club views inter-club comps.

Not sure about the money side of the argument though - is it not the same as arguing that someone who joined, say, this year with no joining fee shouldn't be allowed to play as they didn't pay huge money a few years ago when times were different ? Ok, the cost of the annual subs probably comes into it to.

As I say, I'm very much on the fence on this one but juniors should definitely be allowed and encouraged. I see the same faces so many times year after year in our place, fellas playing on the same teams for 20 years because they were good back in the 80s.....

Par71

My opinion is if you sign up to be a 5 day member thats all you get. As a junior member (the future of most clubs) you should get the right to partake in these interclub comps. A junior doesnt get the choice of being a 5 day member or a 7 day so why take the oppertunity away from them just because they pay less, they are juniors afterall.

If a club has a 5 day member single figure golfer it is up to them to try and convince that player to become a full member so he can play for the club. Its in the clubs hands imo.

GreeBo

jimjo wrote: »

If you want to play on weekends like the 7 day members, pay the 7 day rate like everyone else. Might ring up VHI and ask for the extra benefits of plan C when I’m paying for Plan B, I would like to hear their response...

Might ask my club can I be become a 5 day member and then ask by the way stick me down for all team competitions will ya, not messing here, would love to do it to see the looks on their faces!!!

That only makes sense if the rules of the club state that a 5/6 day member is not an ordinary member. In my club 5,6,7 day members are all "Ordinary" members, the only difference is in the playing rights they have on the course. There is nothing to state that they cannot represent their club on teams, its never mentioned. If I was blocked from playing because of my category I would raise hell.

Also, its not always by choice that people are 5 or 6 day instead of 7. Its easier to get in as a 5 or 6 day in my rather than a 7 day. Also, you cant just decide to move up a category, there has to be space for you to move into.

f22

GreeBo wrote: »

That only makes sense if the rules of the club state that a 5/6 day member is not an ordinary member. In my club 5,6,7 day members are all "Ordinary" members, the only difference is in the playing rights they have on the course. There is nothing to state that they cannot represent their club on teams, its never mentioned. If I was blocked from playing because of my category I would raise hell.

Also, its not always by choice that people are 5 or 6 day instead of 7. Its easier to get in as a 5 or 6 day in my rather than a 7 day. Also, you cant just decide to move up a category, there has to be space for you to move into.

Very valid points Greebo, another is the fact that certain Interclub competitions can be played mid-week, such as Barton Cup.

ShriekingSheet

GreeBo wrote: »

There is nothing to state that they cannot represent their club on teams, its never mentioned. If I was blocked from playing because of my category I would raise hell.

Well that's the thing, it's not that you'd raise hell, it's if a 5 day member gets on a team, the full members raise hell! And the reason there's no official rule against it is because none is needed - whether a 5 day member is permitted or not, a team captain isn't going to pick him.

jimjo

GreeBo wrote: »

That only makes sense if the rules of the club state that a 5/6 day member is not an ordinary member. In my club 5,6,7 day members are all "Ordinary" members, the only difference is in the playing rights they have on the course. There is nothing to state that they cannot represent their club on teams, its never mentioned. If I was blocked from playing because of my category I would raise hell.

Also, its not always by choice that people are 5 or 6 day instead of 7. Its easier to get in as a 5 or 6 day in my rather than a 7 day. Also, you cant just decide to move up a category, there has to be space for you to move into.

GreeBo I wish you paid more attention to the opening and closing line of that comment I made. I wasn't saying my suggestion was the be all and end all, just a thought on a tricky subject area.

jimjo wrote: »

Everyone’s going to have a different point of few here.

It’s a tricky subject...

I see Ashbourne golf club on their membership page they have distinguished who exactly can and can not play on inter club teams. I'm not saying the route they've gone down is 100% correct (not letting annual members play on inter club comps is a bit harsh) but it is crystal clear to all members and team captains on who they can pick.

http://www.ashbournegolfclub.ie/club.php?filename=club_membership