Nice and Lisbon for jobs

ART6

In the build up to Nice 2 we were told that approving the treaty was essential for jobs, even when it should have been obvious even to a politician that allowing low cost Baltic states into the EU would encourage employers to move there. If the guy down the road makes widgets cheaper than you do, that's who the widget company will go to. The same script was used for Lisbon 2. Meanwhile, Dell have gone to Poland, and it looks like Cadbury will too, following their take over by Kraft. After all, they are closing much of their UK operation. The tap is open and the flow has started.

Since all of the mainstream political parties pressed the same message, and were either so stupid that they should't be allowed out alone, or they deliberately lied in the face of common sense. I am quite looking forward to the next time the b*****s come canvassing:mad:

Mark200

I think it's very easy to point to jobs lost to other EU countries while ignoring jobs gained. I don't know if we've had a nett gain or loss of jobs due to the treaties, but pointing to Dell and Cadbury doesn't prove your point.

Buford T Justice

Mark200 wrote: »

I think it's very easy to point to jobs lost to other EU countries while ignoring jobs gained. I don't know if we've had a nett gain or loss of jobs due to the treaties, but pointing to Dell and Cadbury doesn't prove your point.

Has there been a net gain in Jobs in Ireland over the last two or so years?

bonerm

Dey dukur chacklat.

reprazant

Fingers McGee wrote: »

Has there been a net gain in Jobs in Ireland over the last two or so years?

What has the job situation been like over all of Europe?

Do you think that because we said yes to Lisbon, Ireland should have lots of jobs even though jobs are being lost all over Europe?

Dravokivich

neither treaties were set with creating jobs...

Both the Yes and No campaign were morons for trying to use "Jobs / Economy / Fordiners" as excuses for goign for yes / no...

neither of them actually pointed out what was to be gained or lost by going with them.

Politics in Ireland in general is a load of hog wash... there is no plan... and the only agenda is to ridicule the other guy...

As long as this continues... we'll be stuck in the rut we're in...

it was no different during the "Celtic Tiger" boom. Fianna Fail just rode the coat tails saying it was them that brought in up the economy... same thing would of happened no matter who's leading the Circus in Leinster House that promised lower tax rates...

- Drav!

Most pointless thread I've seen ina while. We don't have an Ireland sans Nice and Lisbon to compare to so we don't have anything to talk about.

humanji

Well if they'd pulled their finger out and conscripted people into this EU army the anti-Lisbon crowd harped on about, then there'd be loads of jobs for everyone.

Menengroth™

i hear there's a global recession on.

biko

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sED3iApAvE

Yup politicians led us up the garden path on both occasions and numpties fell for it. And they will fall for it next time too and the time after that.
Because as long as you put an EU stamp on anything the reality distortion field kicks in!

Mind you, the media had a massive part to play too. They went all out on the bs spreading and fear mongering, Irish Times editorial where they call No voters mad (or a word to that effect) comes to mind.

Menengroth™

Menengroth™ wrote: »

i hear there's a global recession on.

There was a global recession on back then too, didnt stop the lies though.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

There was a global recession on back then too, didnt stop the lies though.

What lies? How do you know if there's any more or less jobs than if we voted no?

Dyr

Look it's not the pro europeans fault that you lot assumed the " vote lisbon for jobs" schtick meant that the jobs would be in Ireland..

mikom

Our employment worries will be at an end once the Lisbon facilitated abortion clinics start hiring.

*runs away laughing manically*

Buford T Justice

reprazant wrote: »

What has the job situation been like over all of Europe?

Do you think that because we said yes to Lisbon, Ireland should have lots of jobs even though jobs are being lost all over Europe?

Dont answer a question with a question.:p

stovelid

Non-curved bananas was the straw that broke the camel's back for me.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

What lies? How do you know if there's any more or less jobs than if we voted no?

Re read the posts, you do not understand what is being positioned here. And I personally did not claim anything about there being more or less jobs..

My common sense tells me that the jobs situation would be the same but the politicians used the claim that we would have more jobs to cajole a yes vote.

It really sickens me how desperate Irish people can get when the J word is used. Jobs for this and jobs for that, we really do not do ourselves any favours by falling for the jobs lies every time.

evercloserunion

mikom wrote: »

Our employment worries will be at an end once the Lisbon facilitated abortion clinics start hiring.

*runs away laughing manically*

Yeah, between abortion clinics and the EU superarmy we'll be sorted.

And who wouldn't want to hire someone for €1.84 an hour anyway?

aidan24326

Deleted User wrote: »

What lies? How do you know if there's any more or less jobs than if we voted no?

We don't, though I suspect it would have made no difference anyway, certainly not in the short to medium term since jobs are being lost over the place in the current climate, Lisbon or no Lisbon.

The whole thing of 'Vote Yes to Lisbon for Jobs' was just the usual election sloganeering, the attitude from government being that a good % of the elctorate are too thick to understand the real issues anyway so just wave the jobs placard and we'll have them onside. Lisbon wasn't going to make a difference either way, it was never primarily about jobs, and in any case with you know who in charge of the Department of Trade and Enterprise don't expect to see too many new jobs coming our way.

AckwelFoley

This reminds me of a gobsh1te rte econimics presenter that joind a political parter and thought he was going to be the head of the party in 4 weeks, leader of the country in 8 weeks and Jesus after a full 12 months.

Lisbon / Nice.. they're called frameworks.. frameworks to achieve things in a more efficent matter. The key point is TIME.

Patience, enjoy the recession while it lasts, it wont last forever... im old enough to remember the last one.

One thing is for sure though, we irish like to whinge moan and bitch about things - if we focused more on doing things rather than waiting on others to do it we'd be alot better off

evercloserunion

Deleted User wrote: »

Re read the posts, you do not understand what is being positioned here. And I personally did not claim anything about there being more or less jobs..

My common sense tells me that the jobs situation would be the same but the politicians used the claim that we would have more jobs to cajole a yes vote.

It really sickens me how desperate Irish people can get when the J word is used. Jobs for this and jobs for that, we really do not do ourselves any favours by falling for the jobs lies every time.

You're right that people are idiots to think that Lisbon was going to give them all jobs in the middle of one of the worst domestic and global economic crises in history. But TBH it's only the Eurosceptic hacks who think that (or pretend to think that) anyway. Ask a normal person in the real world whether they expected the country to go back to boom-time unemployment levels in the months following Lisbon and they'll say no, of course not, it's a recession.

But you are wrong to say that there was no truth at all in the jobs and recovery promises. Our yes vote wes definitely perceived by investors as a good thing. On the Monday following the Yes vote, the IT reported that the ISEQ lifted as investors responded to the vote. Even Moody's, which is usually (IMO) the most pessimistic towards Ireland of the ratings agencies, said that the Lisbon vote was "rating positive". Higher investor confidence and cheaper debt are key to recovery. Uncertainty generally is a bad thing for the economy, and uncertainty is what you get when a treaty is agreed by the democratically elected leaders of the EU member states and ratified in a majority of countries but then rejected by one small nation for reasons that don't make sense.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Re read the posts, you do not understand what is being positioned here. And I personally did not claim anything about there being more or less jobs..

My common sense tells me that the jobs situation would be the same but the politicians used the claim that we would have more jobs to cajole a yes vote.

It really sickens me how desperate Irish people can get when the J word is used. Jobs for this and jobs for that, we really do not do ourselves any favours by falling for the jobs lies every time.

Ok.. can you highlight anything else that has changed since the vote?

If we havn't done ourselves any favours, have we done something bad? My life has been completely unaffected so I'm interested so see if yours has been..

reprazant

Deleted User wrote: »

Re read the posts, you do not understand what is being positioned here. And I personally did not claim anything about there being more or less jobs..

My common sense tells me that the jobs situation would be the same but the politicians used the claim that we would have more jobs to cajole a yes vote.

It really sickens me how desperate Irish people can get when the J word is used. Jobs for this and jobs for that, we really do not do ourselves any favours by falling for the jobs lies every time.

As opposed to how desperate the Irish people can get when the rubbish that the No vote campaign were sprouting?

Abortion is on its way! And if your children don't get aborted, they will be enlisted into a European army to fight in wars they know nothing about. All while earning €1.84 an hour!

evercloserunion

reprazant wrote: »

As opposed to how desperate the Irish people can get when the rubbish that the No vote campaign were sprouting?

Abortion is on its way! And if your children don't get aborted, they will be enlisted into a European army to fight in wars they know nothing about. All while earning €1.84 an hour!

To be fair, the Irish saw through that sh*t fairly quickly, the second time round at least.

evercloserunion

evercloserunion wrote: »

But you are wrong to say that there was no truth at all in the jobs and recovery promises. Our yes vote wes definitely perceived by investors as a good thing. On the Monday following the Yes vote, the IT reported that the ISEQ lifted as investors responded to the vote. Even Moody's, which is usually (IMO) the most pessimistic towards Ireland of the ratings agencies, said that the Lisbon vote was "rating positive". Higher investor confidence and cheaper debt are key to recovery. Uncertainty generally is a bad thing for the economy, and uncertainty is what you get when a treaty is agreed by the democratically elected leaders of the EU member states and ratified in a majority of countries but then rejected by one small nation for reasons that don't make sense.

Ahh good ol Moody's, the same agency that kept rating the funds containing the sub primes loans as a good investment...I would take their expert advice with a pinch of salt. I'm not saying I know any better, I certainly don't, but I would be very skeptical given recent history.

As for investor confidence you do have a point but if we had not opened up our economy so much to globalisation in the first instance then I am certain we would not have suffered as much.

hooradiation

ART6 wrote: »

In the build up to Nice 2 we were told that approving the treaty was essential for jobs, even when it should have been obvious even to a politician that allowing low cost Baltic states into the EU would encourage employers to move there. If the guy down the road makes widgets cheaper than you do, that's who the widget company will go to. The same script was used for Lisbon 2. Meanwhile, Dell have gone to Poland, and it looks like Cadbury will too, following their take over by Kraft. After all, they are closing much of their UK operation. The tap is open and the flow has started.

Since all of the mainstream political parties pressed the same message, and were either so stupid that they should't be allowed out alone, or they deliberately lied in the face of common sense. I am quite looking forward to the next time the b*****s come canvassing:mad:

Maybe if people took it upon themselves to take a damn interest in things which affect them, like these treaties, we wouldn't have to deal with peoples astounding disbelief that a complex treaty doesn't boil down to a three word slogan very well.



Now, where's the rampant EU abortion machine, i want to have one before i join the EU super-army.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

If we havn't done ourselves any favours, have we done something bad? My life has been completely unaffected so I'm interested so see if yours has been..

Give it time:
In a parallel move, Commission chief Jose Barroso said Brussels has treaty powers allowing it to take the reins of economic management. "

This is a time for boldness. I believe that our economic and social situation demands a radical shift from the status quo. And the new Lisbon Treaty allows this," he said.

In other words, we have given the EU carte blanche to impose whatever economic powers they want. How does it feel to have laws imposed on you by someone you do not have a chance to vote on? Welcome to the new democracy free EU.

reprazant

reprazant wrote: »

As opposed to how desperate the Irish people can get when the rubbish that the No vote campaign were sprouting?

Abortion is on its way! And if your children don't get aborted, they will be enlisted into a European army to fight in wars they know nothing about. All while earning €1.84 an hour!

I understand why you raise that point, that is what the media were pushing as the main reasons for the No vote. They were wrong, a cursory glance at the MB IMS research findings post Lisbon 1 will tell you that the main reasons were:
Fear of loss of sovereignty and lack of understanding of the treaty.

But many intelligent people fell for the media propaganda, its a classic tactic to make the opposition look like loons.

And as hooradiation correctly points out people dont have the time to find out for themselves.

evercloserunion

Deleted User wrote: »

As for investor confidence you do have a point but if we had not opened up our economy so much to globalisation in the first instance then I am certain we would not have suffered as much.

Nor would we have gained so much. Globalisation and economic integration is a fact of life, like it or not. The question is how we can best act in that context. Pursuing a policy of isolationism is not a good idea.

Dave!

You know there's a global recession going on at the moment, right? Were you expecting thousands of jobs to be cropping up during this?

evercloserunion

evercloserunion wrote: »

Nor would we have gained so much. Globalisation and economic integration is a fact of life, like it or not. The question is how we can best act in that context. Pursuing a policy of isolationism is not a good idea.

There is a mid way point but we went too far and are now one of the most open economies in the world.

If we had any sense we would have seen that the investment was temporary and not allowed so much into the country. This gave a false feel good factor which made the country go silly on cheap credit which has made the bust far worse for individuals.

Think of all the people who worked for multinationals and took out huge mortgages and are now unemployed and soon to lose their house. Sure its great they were able to live well for a few years but they are now fooked; globalisation has been proven to be unsustainable.

What we really needed was temperance but those in power were rolling in the good headlines and false pride brought about by each announcement of jobs. What they did was incredibly detrimental to the country but it helped them stay in power...

Dave!

Dave! wrote: »

You know there's a global recession going on at the moment, right? Were you expecting thousands of jobs to be cropping up during this?

read the full thread

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64405965&postcount=12

Dave!

Deleted User wrote: »

read the full thread

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64405965&postcount=12

Not arsed with Lisbon discussions anymore, but I always took it that they were talking about in the long-term it's better for jobs if we are seen to be at the heart of Europe rather than the fringes.

fontanalis

Deleted User wrote: »

There is a mid way point but we went too far and are now one of the most open economies in the world.

If we had any sense we would have seen that the investment was temporary and not allowed so much into the country. This gave a false feel good factor which made the country go silly on cheap credit which has made the bust far worse for individuals.

Think of all the people who worked for multinationals and took out huge mortgages and are now unemployed and soon to lose their house. Sure its great they were able to live well for a few years but they are now fooked; globalisation has been proven to be unsustainable.

What we really needed was temperance but those in power were rolling in the good headlines and false pride brought about by each announcement of jobs. What they did was incredibly detrimental to the country but it helped them stay in power...

What would you have done? Whether you like it or not Ireland is a tiny, tiny player in the world. The country has NOTHING, I repeat that NOTHING to build a internal economy on. In the long term being part of a big trading block and attracting sustainable outside investment will be more beneficial than some tiny little island that thinks it doesn't need the rest of the world.
As for loss of sovereignty and other such crap, I'd rather be governed by a competent German or Swedish politician than some pub owners son or whatever passes for an irish politician these days.

IrishManSaipan

evercloserunion wrote: »

Yeah, between abortion clinics and the EU superarmy we'll be sorted.

And who wouldn't want to hire someone for €1.84 an hour anyway?

Forget Coir for a minute........

Lets look back on the Nice treaty.......


Quotes on East European immigration.

" There is no reason to believe...... that large numbers of workers will
wish to come"
[ Dick Roche I.T. Letters 12/7/2002 ]

"Mr. XXXX also repeats the line propagated by the No to Nice campaign that
only four countries are to permit immigration after enlargement. This
statement grossly misrepresents the position of the other member states."
[ Dick Roche I.T. Letters Aug/Sept. 2002. ]

" Ireland will be in precisely the same position as all other member states
on the question of free movement following any enlargement of the
Community."
[ Dick Roche - as reported in I.T. xx/09/2002

" It is the view of the Irish government and a number of other governments
that this idea that there is going to be a huge influx of immigrants is just
not supported. The evidence is just not there for it. They are not going to
flood to the west. The same rules are going to apply in all 15 states. There
is no evidence to suggest that the people of the Czech Republic or Poland
are less anxious to stay in their home as (sic) we are.
[ Dick Roche transcript of interview with The Irish Catholic, Govt.
Buildings 19/9/2002. ]

" It is a deliberate misrepresentation to suggest that tens of thousands
will suddenly descend en masse on Ireland." [ P. De Rossa I.T. Letters
20/8/2002 ]

" The expected trickle of immigration to Ireland will on balance benefit the
Irish economy."
[ P. De Rossa I.T. Letters 20/8/2002

" I estimate that fewer than 2,000 [ two thousand] will choose our distant
shores each year."
[ P. De Rossa I.T. Letters 20/8/2002 ]

" There is no evidence there would be a problem with free movement of
workers on accession." [ Bertie Ahern Dail Eireann 10/9/2002 ]

"Efforts have been made to foment fears that migrants from the new member
states could flock to Ireland. This is not only unpleasant but plainly
wrong."
[ Brian Cowan Sunday Business Post 7/7/2002 ]

" Ireland is already benefiting from the skills and energy of workers from
the applicant states, about 7,000 [ seven thousand] of whom received work
permits last year. There is no basis whatever for expecting a huge upsurge
in these numbers."
[ Brian Cowan Sunday Business Post 7/7/2002 ]

" The second myth is that the Nice Treaty will mean mass immigration from
the new EU member countries in Eastern Europe. This is probably the most
odious of the myths propagated by some in the "No" campaign."
[ Willie O'Dea Sunday Independent Summer 2002]

IrishManSaipan

fontanalis wrote: »

As for loss of sovereignty and other such crap, I'd rather be governed by a competent German or Swedish politician than some pub owners son or whatever passes for an irish politician these days.

Exercise your treaty rights and move to Sweden or Germany so.....

K-9

Deleted User wrote: »

I understand why you raise that point, that is what the media were pushing as the main reasons for the No vote. They were wrong, a cursory glance at the MB IMS research findings post Lisbon 1 will tell you that the main reasons were:
Fear of loss of sovereignty and lack of understanding of the treaty.

But many intelligent people fell for the media propaganda, its a classic tactic to make the opposition look like loons.

And as hooradiation correctly points out people dont have the time to find out for themselves.

Another big reason was people copped to the more outlandish Anti Lisbon points. The loons didn't need the media make them look like loons, they did that themselves, Farrange in particular.

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Forget Coir for a minute........

Lets look back on the Nice treaty.......


Quotes on East European immigration.

" There is no reason to believe...... that large numbers of workers will
wish to come"
[ Dick Roche I.T. Letters 12/7/2002 ]

"Mr. XXXX also repeats the line propagated by the No to Nice campaign that
only four countries are to permit immigration after enlargement. This
statement grossly misrepresents the position of the other member states."
[ Dick Roche I.T. Letters Aug/Sept. 2002. ]

" Ireland will be in precisely the same position as all other member states
on the question of free movement following any enlargement of the
Community."
[ Dick Roche - as reported in I.T. xx/09/2002

" It is the view of the Irish government and a number of other governments
that this idea that there is going to be a huge influx of immigrants is just
not supported. The evidence is just not there for it. They are not going to
flood to the west. The same rules are going to apply in all 15 states. There
is no evidence to suggest that the people of the Czech Republic or Poland
are less anxious to stay in their home as (sic) we are.
[ Dick Roche transcript of interview with The Irish Catholic, Govt.
Buildings 19/9/2002. ]

" It is a deliberate misrepresentation to suggest that tens of thousands
will suddenly descend en masse on Ireland." [ P. De Rossa I.T. Letters
20/8/2002 ]

" The expected trickle of immigration to Ireland will on balance benefit the
Irish economy."
[ P. De Rossa I.T. Letters 20/8/2002

" I estimate that fewer than 2,000 [ two thousand] will choose our distant
shores each year."
[ P. De Rossa I.T. Letters 20/8/2002 ]

" There is no evidence there would be a problem with free movement of
workers on accession." [ Bertie Ahern Dail Eireann 10/9/2002 ]

"Efforts have been made to foment fears that migrants from the new member
states could flock to Ireland. This is not only unpleasant but plainly
wrong."
[ Brian Cowan Sunday Business Post 7/7/2002 ]

" Ireland is already benefiting from the skills and energy of workers from
the applicant states, about 7,000 [ seven thousand] of whom received work
permits last year. There is no basis whatever for expecting a huge upsurge
in these numbers."
[ Brian Cowan Sunday Business Post 7/7/2002 ]

" The second myth is that the Nice Treaty will mean mass immigration from
the new EU member countries in Eastern Europe. This is probably the most
odious of the myths propagated by some in the "No" campaign."
[ Willie O'Dea Sunday Independent Summer 2002]

Well relating that to the OP, that means Nice was great for jobs as we had more or less full employment, despite all the immigration.

Kev_ps3

ART6 wrote: »

In the build up to Nice 2 we were told that approving the treaty was essential for jobs, even when it should have been obvious even to a politician that allowing low cost Baltic states into the EU would encourage employers to move there. If the guy down the road makes widgets cheaper than you do, that's who the widget company will go to. The same script was used for Lisbon 2. Meanwhile, Dell have gone to Poland, and it looks like Cadbury will too, following their take over by Kraft. After all, they are closing much of their UK operation. The tap is open and the flow has started.

Since all of the mainstream political parties pressed the same message, and were either so stupid that they should't be allowed out alone, or they deliberately lied in the face of common sense. I am quite looking forward to the next time the b*****s come canvassing:mad:

Dont know why your surprised.

JordyWordy

The only thing that prevented Ireland from going completely bankrupt last year was our EU membership. Without the EU we would've had the same problems as Iceland, with no-one to dig us out of it. Politicians in this country need to stimulate the economy, the EU can only do so much.

The "jobs" issue is , to use Michael O'Leary's words: "a red herring". We're not doing too bad really, considering all of our major banks almost went bust, and thousands and thousands of people across the continent lost jobs too.

View

Deleted User wrote: »

Give it time:
In a parallel move, Commission chief Jose Barroso said Brussels has treaty powers allowing it to take the reins of economic management. "

This is a time for boldness. I believe that our economic and social situation demands a radical shift from the status quo. And the new Lisbon Treaty allows this," he said.

If you took the time to read what Barroso actually said (see link below), you'd see that he did not say that "Brussels has treaty powers allowing it to take the reins of economic management" - the closest you find is he advocates "stronger economic coordination" which falls far short of the above claim.

Offhand, in the midst of a major global economic crisis, it is hard to see why the member states should be opposed to the idea of "stronger economic coordination" amongst themselves, particularly in pursuit of objectives that they have previously agreed to amongst themselves - i.e. the "Europe 2020" strategy of "promoting jobs through sustainable growth".

Still, no doubt you'll keep the Telegraph up there on its pedestal...

Link for Barroso's speech is here: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=SPEECH/10/21&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

View

View wrote: »

If you took the time to read what Barroso actually said (see link below), you'd see that he did not say that "Brussels has treaty powers allowing it to take the reins of economic management" - the closest you find is he advocates "stronger economic coordination" which falls far short of the above claim.

Offhand, in the midst of a major global economic crisis, it is hard to see why the member states should be opposed to the idea of "stronger economic coordination" amongst themselves, particularly in pursuit of objectives that they have previously agreed to amongst themselves - i.e. the "Europe 2020" strategy of "promoting jobs through sustainable growth".

Still, no doubt you'll keep the Telegraph up there on its pedestal...

Link for Barroso's speech is here: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=SPEECH/10/21&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

Ahem, did you really read the speech??
I QUOTE:

This is a time for boldness. This is a time to show our citizens that we care, and that the entry into force of the Lisbon Treaty will make a real difference in our ability to serve their interests.

I believe that our economic and social situation demands a radical shift from the status quo. And the new Treaty allows this.

As for the Telegraph, grow up and learn to build an argument without attacking the messenger.

humanji

Deleted User wrote: »

Ahem, did you really read the speech??
I QUOTE:

This is a time for boldness. This is a time to show our citizens that we care, and that the entry into force of the Lisbon Treaty will make a real difference in our ability to serve their interests.

I believe that our economic and social situation demands a radical shift from the status quo. And the new Treaty allows this.

As for the Telegraph, grow up and learn to build an argument without attacking the messenger.

That's still a fair bit off what was originally claimed.

twinQuins

I'm still waiting for on-demand abortion, conscription, an EU wide army, an EU superstate and whatever other bullshit the idiots on the "No" side warned us of.

Morkarleth

Morkarleth wrote: »

I'm still waiting for on-demand abortion, conscription, an EU wide army, an EU superstate and whatever other bullshit the idiots on the "No" side warned us of.

*SIGH*

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64407168&postcount=29

twinQuins

You lost me at "media propaganda". Do you mean to imply the "Yes" side had the media in their pocket?

hooradiation

Actually, that reminds me.

You misunderstand me, my point wasn't that people didn't have the time. That's fucking rubbish.

People had the time to find out everything, they lacked the inclination because they are lazy fucks.

Now that people are turning around and complaining that "ohh, where are the jobs i was promised" is of no surprise, but frankly i don't give two fucks if they feel they've been cheated.

If your stupid enough to take a complex and important issue like the Lisbon treaty and then actively fail to educate yourself on it then you deserve to have every one of Coirs half backed fear mongering prophecies visited upon you a hundred fold.

I have no sympathy for people who shirk their responsibility to be an informed voter and nothing but for contempt for people who encourage or excuse them.

evercloserunion

hooradiation wrote: »

Actually, that reminds me.

You misunderstand me, my point wasn't that people didn't have the time. That's fucking rubbish.

People had the time to find out everything, they lacked the inclination because they are lazy fucks.

Now that people are turning around and complaining that "ohh, where are the jobs i was promised" is of no surprise, but frankly i don't give two fucks if they feel they've been cheated.

If your stupid enough to take a complex and important issue like the Lisbon treaty and then actively fail to educate yourself on it then you deserve to have every one of Coirs half backed fear mongering prophecies visited upon you a hundred fold.

I have no sympathy for people who shirk their responsibility to be an informed voter and nothing but for contempt for people who encourage or excuse them.

Again, you have a point but again, I must ask, who is saying "ohh, where are the jobs i was promised"? No one except the disingenuous, agenda-driven loons who have been against every EU Treaty since accession in the 70s. THEY are the ones who are pretending to feel cheated because if they can convince people that Ireland voted the way it did because of an absolute promise of jobs for all, then they can discredit the vote. Unfortunately for them Ireland did not vote on that basis and that is quite evident in the lack of public dissatisfaction with the Lisbon Treaty.

Mal-Adjusted

Menengroth™ wrote: »

i hear there's a global recession on.

I hear it's pretty much over

cooperguy

stovelid wrote: »

Non-curved bananas was the straw that broke the camel's back for me.

You know thats a myth right?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6481969.stm

EvilMonkey

So were what 3 - 4 months into Lisbon? way to soon to judge it, especially when it took 8 or 9 years to negotiate and get ratified.