Spirit level for installing dish - why?

USA

Hi all,

I'm putting up a dish at the weekend (it's my first time) it's a standard 60cm dish with quad lnb. I have all the correct drill bits and screws/plugs/etc but was watching an install video where a guy used a spirit level to ensure the satellite was perfectly level before elevating it.

The dish I have has a bolt you can change the elevation before putting it up, (I have it at about 22 degrees for astra 28.2e),

Anyway I was just wondering what is the point of that step of using the spirit level?

thanks!

montgolfiere

It is very important that the dish is 'True' ie. the Arm of the LNB is level. Reception is much reduced if this is not the case.
the Skyman

tomslick

montgolfiere wrote: »

It is very important that the dish is 'True' ie. the Arm of the LNB is level. Reception is much reduced if this is not the case.
the Skyman

First time I've ever heard this. Spirit Level my arse..... If you are aiming to get 28east only don't worry about all the fancy stuff. Mount the bracket in a good spot and make it look good, not above front door etc. As long as you have a sat beeper etc, don't worry about elevation. Every type of dish is different. If you are using a sky dish it'll look kind of vertical but the LNB are will be not level/flat. Just point it roughly where your neighbors dish is and use the beeper for accuracy. Angles, elevation etc is really, I Find, for motors etc. Simple beeper and Patience is required for 28east, Can you link the video?

Calibos

Similar situation sometime in the future for me. Sparks is wiring renovated house soon and will be running indoor cabling to my spec. WF100 etc. He also said he could run the 4 outdoor cables I'd need for the LNB outside. I was thinking that from that point onwards, I'd have to get a independent Sat installer in. However it sounds like something myself and the sparks could do ourselves.

Sky installers are a non starter because its a Quattro LNB feeding a Triax 5/16 Multiswitch. The are also a non starter because the dish will be above their height limits (10m+ up on gable wall. Because its feeding a multiswitch I need a bigger dish than the sky minidish. Even if all that wasn't a problem, an install booking with Sky might not be soon enough before the scaffolding comes down.

This thread where I have discovered the thing doesn't even need to be uber accuratly mounted unless going motorised gives me the confidence to buy the Multiswitch (going in loft), dish and Quattro LNB myself, myself and sparks install dish while the scaffold is still up. Sparks runs cabling into loft etc.

Anyone see any problems with this? I guess I'll need to budget for a signal tester gadget though to align the dish to the Sky Astra sats?

One final question, The front of the house points SSE but I don't want dish visible from road. Gable wall where I want to put it faces EEN. Is there a standoff bracket arm that could be mounted to the gable wall to accomodate a larger dish. BTW what size would I need for Bray and a multiswitch quattro system. 60cm?? 80cm??

Bob_Harris

The reason you may want a spirit level is to get the bracket, or arm which the dish attaches to, perfectly vertical. To use the spirit level on the actual dish itself makes no sense.

tomslick

Just to clarify one point before I start.. To install a dish for sky you could really fire it up badly but it does need to be pointed accurately. So the pole doesn't need to be 100% vertical but you'll still get a signal. Millions have installed LIDL dishes themselves and when you see how they done them you would see they had no skill or taste.

Now back to your problem.
The minimum dish you should require is 80cm but 90/95cm would be recommended. You should use T&K brackets with a minimum 2inch diameter pole about 1meter should do. The reason for T&K and pole is dish is quite large and when the wind gets at it you don't want it to move.
Now will EEN do? Couldn't guarantee it. The dish will need to be pointing 28 degrees east of south so SSE is the general area. Maybe with 24inch T&K's? Remember the dish looks like its pointing at the horizon but it's really looking at the sun so will it clear your roof? So you'll have to figure that out yourself.

Now you'll need to aline the dish really with a universal lnb (cheap one) so you can be sure you've go the correct sat. Get a hold of a Lidl box from a friend and a portable TV and put them next to the dish and connect them up to dish. When you get BBC england you there. Then make sure you get a signal for the rest (pay ones will stay black but signal). Change LNB to quatro. Connect multi switch connections HH HL VH VL to corresponding connections on quatro and your done as such

Never as easy as it sounds with big dishes.........

Feasach

Have a look at these two URL's ......might help you with your Dish.......
http://bytelive.com/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=How%20to%20align%20a%20satellite%20dish

http://www.techtir.ie/forums/showthread.php?t=1265/

Feasach

Tony

A spiit level is only really necessary on a motorised system although your mounting bracket should be reasonably close to 90 degrees. If it is slighly off you can correct this by turning the lnb, this is know as "skew adjustment" .

Calibos

Ah! Maybe not as easy as I thought then. Perhaps I should get an independent installer after all. I guess I should ask the builder when the scaffolding on the gable is coming down and book and time an independent install of a dish just before it comes down.

That said, reading about offset on those links etc makes me think I can mount it lower. In fact its something I noticed that confused me just a few hours ago. Anyone know the house on the north facing foot of Bray head. Was walking the dogs that way and saw some dishes mounted on the owners roof garden that seemed to be pointing horizontal at the front of the second storey. "Didn't know dishes could 'see' through houses and a 100 million tonnes of Granite?"

The reason I thought it needed to be mounted on the gable wall at the apex of the roof level was the roof of the adjoining property. It seems I could have it mounted a fair bit lower level with the apex of their roof and thus 100% hidden. At that height a 20ft ladder on the top of a flat roof single storey extension at the back of the adjoining property could reach the dish. I'd still time the install while the scaffolding is up to make install a breeze (for whomever is doing it) but it would mean future maintenence would be much easier. (We own property next door so ladder on flatroof is no problem)

Can anyone recomend a competent independent installer that covers the Bray area who has the knowhow to install a Quattro 90cm dish. I guess if its a 90cm round dish that the standoff bracket needs to be over 45cm(18in). So surely a 20in bracket would work. Could actually probably get away with even shorter than 18in. Dish would probably be skewed 20-30º away from gable wall.

Heres an image of a Sky dish on the adjoining property who's gable wall is roughly parallel with ours.



[edit] just looked at other phot's in that picture set. My recollection of shapes and heights of rooves and who the direction that that dish is pointing relates to them makes me think that the best position for the dish is going to be harder to work out than I thought. I may even find I need to mount it on a pole at the back of the yard?? Definately think I need an indo to come out and do a site survey!!

Tony

Try instacom.ie

Calibos

Tony wrote: »

Try instacom.ie

Website looks like high end Home-Cinema installs. Do they do lowly sat dish installs too?

LordSutch

My EL60cm dish came with a spirit level incorporated in the moulded quad LNB! with the dish now mounted fifteen feet high, if you look up you can still see the spirit bubble 'in the middle' I presume the reason for this is so the LNB is precisely skewed clockwise (when facing the dish) > this presision is essential for perfect Astra 2D reception, so I'm told ..............

Tony

Calibos wrote: »

Website looks like high end Home-Cinema installs. Do they do lowly sat dish installs too?

They've been doing satellite for as long as I have

gsp119

www.gptv.ie Gerry will sort you out

He is independant and would be cheaper than Instacom

Tony

gsp119 wrote: »

would be cheaper than Instacom

Is that right? tell me how could you possibly know that?

darth_maul

tomslick wrote: »

First time I've ever heard this. Spirit Level my arse..... If you are aiming to get 28east only don't worry about all the fancy stuff.

I always use a spirit level on all installs, It is very important on a Sky mini dish that the bracket is as plumb as possible as the LNB only has a very small level of adjustment. plus if its a good bit off on an oval dish you would lose alot of quality as the LNB's are tuned to the dishes height and width difference.

Why you would advise someone not to bother with spirit level, If someone is only using a cheap meter with no quality reading the only way of ensuring good signal quality is to get the bracket level and use the dishes skew settings.


Darth Maul

reboot

Calibos wrote: »

Ah! Maybe not as easy as I thought then. Perhaps I should get an independent installer after all. I guess I should ask the builder when the scaffolding on the gable is coming down and book and time an independent install of a dish just before it comes down.

That said, reading about offset on those links etc makes me think I can mount it lower. In fact its something I noticed that confused me just a few hours ago. Anyone know the house on the north facing foot of Bray head. Was walking the dogs that way and saw some dishes mounted on the owners roof garden that seemed to be pointing horizontal at the front of the second storey. "Didn't know dishes could 'see' through houses and a 100 million tonnes of Granite?"

The reason I thought it needed to be mounted on the gable wall at the apex of the roof level was the roof of the adjoining property. It seems I could have it mounted a fair bit lower level with the apex of their roof and thus 100% hidden. At that height a 20ft ladder on the top of a flat roof single storey extension at the back of the adjoining property could reach the dish. I'd still time the install while the scaffolding is up to make install a breeze (for whomever is doing it) but it would mean future maintenence would be much easier. (We own property next door so ladder on flatroof is no problem)

Can anyone recomend a competent independent installer that covers the Bray area who has the knowhow to install a Quattro 90cm dish. I guess if its a 90cm round dish that the standoff bracket needs to be over 45cm(18in). So surely a 20in bracket would work. Could actually probably get away with even shorter than 18in. Dish would probably be skewed 20-30º away from gable wall.

Heres an image of a Sky dish on the adjoining property who's gable wall is roughly parallel with ours.



[edit] just looked at other phot's in that picture set. My recollection of shapes and heights of rooves and who the direction that that dish is pointing relates to them makes me think that the best position for the dish is going to be harder to work out than I thought. I may even find I need to mount it on a pole at the back of the yard?? Definately think I need an indo to come out and do a site survey!!

It amazes me how some Sky dishes work in the almost impossibe sites they are sometimes installed.
The dish is an "Off set" that means the signal is not received from where the dish is pointing.By this I mean the signal arrives from a more vertical point in the sky,so it may look like you are pointing straight at the neighbours house,but the "wee men" come over the top so to speak.
Point 2 , the "Bird" is 22 thousand miles away,another ten feet wont make a difference.I try to place my dishes close to the ground for those winter storms when I dont want to get up a ladder out.
Its not that hard to find Astra 28,I have seen it located with the dish "hand held" ,but it can be a matter of luck and a £5 meter from Lidl.
Dont panic and watch out for rouge traders.

Calibos

Woah. €5 meter from Lidl?? I thought the meters were in the hundreds? I figured if the dish install wasn't quite as easy as I thought and if a meter cost me nearly the cost of an installer callout I might as well get it installed professionally. More research required so.

I have to head down on site to talk to the sparks tomorrow about other matters. I think I may don a hard hat and go up on the scaffolding with me iPhone 3gs. I've astronomy apps on it which have azimuth and alt graduations and I can switch it to RA and Dec. Equatorial mode on the skyview. Should give me an idea of how low I could mount the dish on the gable wall behind the adjoining properties roof while still haing a view of the sat.

Bob_Harris

Calibos wrote: »

Woah. €5 meter from Lidl?? I thought the meters were in the hundreds?

Simple beep meters are 5 - 15 euro. They beep according how strong a signal it is receiving from any given "bird".

The costly meters can tell you what satellite you are currently pointing at, proper quality and strength readings etc.

Calibos

Thats good news about the Lidl meter Bob.

Talking about using the astronomy app made me think of something, a quick google and I found Dishpointer augmented reality app for the iphone 3gs!! Question is, has anyone used it and is it worth the €7.99. Could do my own site survey

reboot

Calibos wrote: »

Woah. €5 meter from Lidl?? I thought the meters were in the hundreds? I figured if the dish install wasn't quite as easy as I thought and if a meter cost me nearly the cost of an installer callout I might as well get it installed professionally. More research required so.

I have to head down on site to talk to the sparks tomorrow about other matters. I think I may don a hard hat and go up on the scaffolding with me iPhone 3gs. I've astronomy apps on it which have azimuth and alt graduations and I can switch it to RA and Dec. Equatorial mode on the skyview. Should give me an idea of how low I could mount the dish on the gable wall behind the adjoining properties roof while still haing a view of the sat.

Lidl meter is fine ,dont get too complicated with expensive kit you may never use again.You also have the on screen display of sig strength and quality.quality is the important one.
Most important technical feature of all,forget 3G and so on,dont put the pole upside down and allow the rain to run down the inside and into the brickwork.

cnocbui

The Lidl meters are fine and work well. The only problem is Lidl only stock them when they have sat gear on sale. They get in a shipment one week and when the stuff is all sold, that's it until they do sat gear again some months on.

A large sat dish mounted offset could cause problems. I wouldn't do it personally unless I could source industrial grade mounting hardware - with multiple attachment points to the wall - in steel.

I had a 80cm dish on a chimney, mounted on a 2" dia aluminium tubing elbow, and the aluminium tubing snapped at the weld to the wall plate. I don't mean the weld snapped, the tubing did! We had a 160+ kph gust and the dish and bracket punched through a couple slates and ended up swinging wildly around at ground level on the coax, just missing the wife's car.

The bracket was only 25-30cm, not double that.

I now have it mounted using a steel bracket with two supporting legs I made from the end of the bracket arm to the wall, giving three attachment points to the wall as the steel bracket was bending too much in the wind on it's own.

I would mount such a big dish as low as possible. You don't need height, just a clear line of sight to the sat.

I would mount mine lower, except I have trees

Calibos

It should be quite sheltered on the gable wall I would have thought. Certainly from NW, W,SW & South....erly winds . Also sheltered somewhat from Easterlies by a big building behind us. Its just Northerlies, and South Easterlies I would have to worry about and I don't believe we get much strong winds from those directions. The big storms are usually Atlantic storms coming from the South West aren't they?

I just went ahead and bought that iPhone app. Now when people talk of line of sight. In a non offset setup the Iphone would kind of be the centre of the parabolic dish. Is it enough to just see the sat over the roofline of the property next door or does the IPhone/dish have to see the sat with no objects in the FOV at all, I wonder.

[edit]when you are talking about offset, are you talking about an offset LNB (dish horizontal)or an offset wall bracket(standoff bracket long enough to let me skew the big dish)

cnocbui

Well, I am in the south west on an exposed hillside, so do get a lot more wind than most. The gust that took out the dish came from the NW though.

Is the app the one on youtube where it uses the iphone camera view and superimposes the satellites location when you point it around? If so; so long as the bottom edge of the dish can see the sat over a roofline, that would be sufficient. In other words, all parts of dish should have a direct line of site to the sat with no intervening obstructions like leaves, chimneys etc.

Sorry, when I said offset I should really have said stand-off, as I was meaning the distance from the wall to the elbow of the bracket, which is likely going to have to be slightly greater than half the diameter of the dish.

Calibos

Cool. Thanks for clarifying all that. I think I am lucky, that the desire to have the dish invisible on the Easterly facing gable wall though necessitating a standoff arm for the dish which is more dangerous in terms of wind all puts the dish on a wall that is sheltered from the prevailing winds.

That was the app I was taking about alright. I went up on the scaffold today with the phone/app and its looking good for having the dish invisible from the road, invisible from our back yard too and to top it all off a lot lower than I thought and in line with what I hoped. ie. A short ladder(albeit not a stepladder) on the flat roof of the extension to the property next door(which we also own) will reach the dish location easily for future maintenance. Thanks for everyones help!!