Anyone raising a child with a non-atheist?

Grawns

My husband is american baptist, but not the bible bashing sort. He doesn't attend church or believe in creationism ( unlike his creepy sister). He was raised in UK and most of his friends would be typical protestants, church once a year types. I am fairly comfortable with his faith although we have had some rows where I have slagged off god in general. I forget that he's not an atheist sometimes cause he's a great guy.

Anyways we had a unitarian wedding, (they're pretty cool) and now we have a lovely daughter who was 1 yesterday. I always said and I still agree that I will let him be in charge and back him up on religous instruction. God exists etc! She can make her own mind up when she's old enough, just like I did ( ex- catholic) . Needless to say there will be no baptisms or anything like that

Has anyone else been down this road? I expect pitfalls cause I will be being deceitful to my daughter.

Thanks Guys

krankykitty

Why do you have to be deceitful to your daughter? Would it be possible to say, when she's old enough to discuss it, that you and her Daddy believe in different things? After all, in school she's going to probably be meeting kids being brought up in different religions and none, so the concept mightn't be as incomprehensible to her as you might think.

I know you're probably trying to keep the peace with your husband but it's bound to cause resentment and upset for you if you have to pretend to believe something you clearly don't. Plus, surely he'd think it wasn't very Christian like behaviour to have to lie

Good luck...

JuliusCaesar

Although I didn't have a believer partner, my child went to a Catholic primary school. (As I'm not and never was Catholic, I didn't know just how religious a Catholic school was going to be!) I just explained that peopple believed different things - that I don't believe in any kind of god, but other people did. The people she knew were Catholics, but that there are many other religions around - Christian and non-Christian. If she asked -and she did- we'd discuss it in a non-emotional way. I didn't tell her what to believe, just told her what I believed and what others believed. There are some good childrens books. (Of course it helped from my point of view that when she got sucked into Catholicism with First Communion preparation, that I actually know the bible quite well and for all the Suffer little children could point out some old testament. )

Zombrex

Grawns wrote: »

My husband is american baptist, but not the bible bashing sort. He doesn't attend church or believe in creationism ( unlike his creepy sister). He was raised in UK and most of his friends would be typical protestants, church once a year types. I am fairly comfortable with his faith although we have had some rows where I have slagged off god in general. I forget that he's not an atheist sometimes cause he's a great guy.

Anyways we had a unitarian wedding, (they're pretty cool) and now we have a lovely daughter who was 1 yesterday. I always said and I still agree that I will let him be in charge and back him up on religous instruction. God exists etc! She can make her own mind up when she's old enough, just like I did ( ex- catholic) . Needless to say there will be no baptisms or anything like that

Has anyone else been down this road? I expect pitfalls cause I will be being deceitful to my daughter.

Thanks Guys

I was raised by a religious father and a non-religious mother.

Why be deceitful to your daughter? Tell her Daddy believes this and Mommy believes something else.

You would be surprised what kids are able to handle.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Dades

Grawns wrote: »

Needless to say there will be no baptisms or anything like that

You did well to avoid the dunking!

The phrase "religious instruction" gives me images of the World Trade Center, tbh.

Grawns

I guess I don't want to deprive my daughter of the comfort of god no more than tell her santa is made up. My husbands faith is gentle and does not involve church so where's the harm in a white lie.

My mother went to mass every sunday until I refused to go anymore ( got my communion money and realized the game was up) and then she never went again. I was raised by undercover atheists!

Have been thinking on this some more and think I will try to play along and keep quiet. She can come to her own conclusion in good time. She won't be going under any circumstances to a catholic school so she won't be confronted with that lark.

Thanks guys.

Comer1

Exactly why do you feel the need to "play along?" Is to avoid rows with your husband, or other family members. Or do you feel that by not playing along you will be depriving your child of something? I am in a very similar situation but my kids are now 7 and 10. I told my wife that she could bring them to church and they could do all the communions/confirmations etc, but when they asked me, I would never lie to them about my beliefs. So when they ask, I discuss it with them. From our discussions, I can't see them believing when they get older, the 10-year-old doesn't really believe as it is. This is a great relief to me as I don't want my kids to living a delusional life!

It does make me feel abit conflicted when we talk about Santa though!:D

robindch

Grawns wrote: »

I will try to play along and keep quiet. She can come to her own conclusion in good time.

You should bear in mind that your kid might never be able to come to her own truly independent conclusion having been told for years that one specific thing is true. She might also unfortunately conclude that her mum thinks it's ok to tell lies.

From what you describe, it seems that you're doing the same as your own mum did -- years of pretend-mass-going and time-wasting -- and all for what?

Grawns

I actually think my catholic upbringing was what made me a committed atheist. Thanks Mum

The wishy washy atheists are the ones who were raised without religion. They never had to do the thinking and arguing and rationalizing. The fun I had with the legion of Mary as a very argumentative 12 year old! Was the making of me.

Anyways I will think on it some more, and thanks for your thoughts

Zillah

Grawns wrote: »

I guess I don't want to deprive my daughter of the comfort of god no more than tell her santa is made up.

Bear in mind that the only people who feel deprived of the "comfort of God" are people who were raised to believe in God and then lost their faith. The vast majority of people that were raised without religion find the whole thing a little strange, and in my experience find it utterly uninteresting.

Raising her half-heartily as a Christian is the perfect way to give her existential woes later in life. She's unlikely to keep the faith once she hits her teens, and is likely to feel a bit cheated, especially when she finds out that you've essentially been lying to her all along.

It's not a white lie. I consider it carelessly harmful. Religion causes many of the problems it claims to fix, existential angst being one of them.

DogmaticLefty

Dades wrote: »

The phrase "religious instruction" gives me images of the World Trade Center, tbh.

That's a bit extreme don't you think?

To OP: tough one. I know this isn't helpful, but I'd never have allowed myself to get into that kind of situation.

strobe

I agree with Wicknight, I was raised by a Father that was a practicing Catholic and an atheist mother. When I was a little kid I remember asking my mother if she was a protestant (the way I had worked it out in my mind at the time was that she must be a protestant cause she didn't go to church). She told me she didn't believe in any religion, which is when I learned what an atheist was.

I remember shortly after that asking my Father if God was real and if he was how come my Ma didn't believe in him. His response was to tell me he believed God was real and told me a couple of reasons why he believed that but if I wanted to know why my Mother didn't believe I'd have to ask her. Which I did. It never caused any problems between them, they respected each others opinions on the matter so why should it. If your husband respects your views he shouldn't have any problem with you telling the truth should your child ask you about them.

It might be worth starting a thread in the Christian forum aswell OP, to get the other view on your situation.

strobe

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

To OP: tough one. I know this isn't helpful, but I'd never have allowed myself to get into that kind of situation.

I know I shouldn't be responding to you but was that an allusion to "everybody should stick to thier own kind"? Cause they have a name for that.

DogmaticLefty

strobe wrote: »

I know I shouldn't be responding to you but was that an allusion to "everybody should stick to thier own kind"? Cause they have a name for that.

I don't know what you're trying to suggest there. Practically, I don't want to marry someone from China or from India or from Eastern Europe or from whereever. I don't fancy the long haul flights nor do I fancy the inevitable family conflicts arising from being in a relationship with someone from a different culture (not to mention the language). Some people have this Utopian vision of a super-advanced human form that takes on DNA from every corner of the globe. In fact I know several people who are in miscegenistic relationships (some, quite serious) and from what I've seen, it doesn't work. Actually, I had a Chinese girlfriend at one stage - great girl (she used to cook for me all the time!), but she was tiny and I don't think her hips could facilitate a child given my 6ft 6" DNA. Needless to say, she's back in China now - imagine if I was married to her and she decided to simply "go back to China"? Also, her father was very senior in the Communist Party and was a staunch atheist (State-sanctioned atheism), so she's not exactly the kind of girl you'd introduce to your granny now, is she? The fact is that the majority of people marry within their own cultures because it is the optimal strategy and gives your offspring the best chance at life. No matter how technologically advanced we become, ties to the home and to the family will never be undone.

WeeBushy

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

I don't know what you're trying to suggest there. Practically, I don't want to marry someone from China or from India or from Eastern Europe or from whereever. I don't fancy the long haul flights nor do I fancy the inevitable family conflicts arising from being in a relationship with someone from a different culture (not to mention the language). Some people have this Utopian vision of a super-advanced human form that takes on DNA from every corner of the globe. In fact I know several people who are in miscegenistic relationships (some, quite serious) and from what I've seen, it doesn't work. Actually, I had a Chinese girlfriend at one stage - great girl (she used to cook for me all the time!), but she was tiny and I don't think her hips could facilitate a child given my 6ft 6" DNA. Needless to say, she's back in China now - imagine if I was married to her and she decided to simply "go back to China"? Also, her father was very senior in the Communist Party and was a staunch atheist (State-sanctioned atheism), so she's not exactly the kind of girl you'd introduce to your granny now, is she? The fact is that the majority of people marry within their own cultures because it is the optimal strategy and gives your offspring the best chance at life. No matter how technologically advanced we become, ties to the home and to the family will never be undone.

You.

strobe

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

The fact is that the majority of people marry within their own cultures because it is the optimal strategy and gives your offspring the best chance at life.

I hope no one reveals this "fact" to the ruler of the most powerful nation on the planet.

DogmaticLefty

strobe wrote: »

I hope no one reveals this "fact" to the most powerful man on earth.

Are you denying that the majority of people in the world marry inside their own culture? It's obvious. Can you please apply your logic and reason to this for me?

DogmaticLefty

WeeBushy wrote: »

You.

Great post. Did you have something meaningful to add to the discussion or are you going to continue with your juvenille tactics? Because if you are, I will simply stop engaging with you as I have done with "Zillah" already for being deliberately insulting.

Zillah

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Are you denying that the majority of people in the world marry inside their own culture? It's obvious.

So? That doesn't mean that "us and them" mentalities are wise or healthy.

Also, genetically speaking you are incredibly wrong. Studies have shown that people of mixed race are consistently found to be more attractive, and even basic genetics will tell you that the further afield your partner is the more robust genetics your offspring will have. Look at any significant number of purebred dogs and in their retarded crossed eyes and twitching defective brains you will see the consequences of breeding within limited circles.

WeeBushy

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Great post. Did you have something meaningful to add to the discussion or are you going to continue with your juvenille tactics? Because if you are, I will simply stop engaging with you as I have done with "Zillah" already for being deliberately insulting.

Nice ninja edit. Continue is probably the wrong choice of word, this is the first time I have engaged with you.

I was attempting to portray my embarrassment for you, but I can spell it out in word if you'd prefer.

I can only hope you are young; at least that way when you look back on your racist, bigoted, and ignorant views you will have immaturity as an excuse.

Rb

I won't/wouldn't raise a child with someone who wanted a God in the childs life.

strobe

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Are you denying that the majority of people in the world marry inside their own culture? It's obvious. Can you please apply your logic and reason to this for me?

My logic and reason tells me it's the same reason most of my friends are from Dublin, and when I was younger most of them were from Tallaght specifically, younger still and most of them were from my road.

Dogmatic I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt, but curiosity got the better of me and I scanned through your previous posts and threads. It seems everywhere you post, not just in this forum, lots and lots of people accuse you of being a troll. Can you please apply your logic and reason to this for me?

DogmaticLefty

Rb wrote: »

I won't/wouldn't raise a child with someone who wanted a God in the childs life.

That's kinda drastically limiting your available options isn't it? You'd better get dating!

chozometroid

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

I don't know what you're trying to suggest there. Practically, I don't want to marry someone from China or from India or from Eastern Europe or from whereever. I don't fancy the long haul flights nor do I fancy the inevitable family conflicts arising from being in a relationship with someone from a different culture (not to mention the language). Some people have this Utopian vision of a super-advanced human form that takes on DNA from every corner of the globe. In fact I know several people who are in miscegenistic relationships (some, quite serious) and from what I've seen, it doesn't work. Actually, I had a Chinese girlfriend at one stage - great girl (she used to cook for me all the time!), but she was tiny and I don't think her hips could facilitate a child given my 6ft 6" DNA. Needless to say, she's back in China now - imagine if I was married to her and she decided to simply "go back to China"? Also, her father was very senior in the Communist Party and was a staunch atheist (State-sanctioned atheism), so she's not exactly the kind of girl you'd introduce to your granny now, is she? The fact is that the majority of people marry within their own cultures because it is the optimal strategy and gives your offspring the best chance at life. No matter how technologically advanced we become, ties to the home and to the family will never be undone.

To each his own, I guess, but my marriage is better than most. The "long haul" flights actually bring about a broader worldview and expand your perspective on life. Staying in one little community of ethnic depravity doesn't do much in terms of opening one's eyes.
Family conflicts? Unless your families are living together, I don't see this. Conflicts arise between two white families, two black families, two hispanic families, etc, all the time.


I am an American of German/Irish/Native American descent, and I married a black woman who was born and raised in the spice isle Grenada of the Carribean.
We couldn't be more different culture-wise, but I love her and her family. We both speak a very different dialect of English, and we have language barriers all the time. It's a minor hurdle to climb and helps us to be open and patient with our differences in communication, which also happens among those who speak exactly the same. The only thing we needed to keep us together was a love for each other and the shared belief in our Lord Jesus Christ.
My wife would like to return to Grenada. It's a paradise, so I can hardly blame her. However, she's my wife and we stick together. We'll make it work. Perhaps a vacation home there one day...
We made a baby, too. He's the cutest, handsomest, and strongest baby you'll ever see. It's true that the extreme features of my white Irish self mixed with the features of a Carribean woman balanced out to make quite the combination. You know the most attractive face is the average of all faces?

Rb

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

That's kinda drastically limiting your available options isn't it? You'd better get dating!

Not really, I have a girlfriend who's a non-believer, who I've been with for quite some time and have quite a promising future with.

Oh and for what it's worth, and I notice you've been drawing attention to yourself around here lately, it's one thing to put people on ignore but listing them in your signature is pretty desperate.

DogmaticLefty

Rb wrote: »

I have a girlfriend who's a non-believer

Each to their own I suppose.

iUseVi

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

I don't know what you're trying to suggest there. Practically, I don't want to marry someone from China or from India or from Eastern Europe or from whereever. I don't fancy the long haul flights nor do I fancy the inevitable family conflicts arising from being in a relationship with someone from a different culture (not to mention the language). Some people have this Utopian vision of a super-advanced human form that takes on DNA from every corner of the globe. In fact I know several people who are in miscegenistic relationships (some, quite serious) and from what I've seen, it doesn't work. Actually, I had a Chinese girlfriend at one stage - great girl (she used to cook for me all the time!), but she was tiny and I don't think her hips could facilitate a child given my 6ft 6" DNA. Needless to say, she's back in China now - imagine if I was married to her and she decided to simply "go back to China"? Also, her father was very senior in the Communist Party and was a staunch atheist (State-sanctioned atheism), so she's not exactly the kind of girl you'd introduce to your granny now, is she? The fact is that the majority of people marry within their own cultures because it is the optimal strategy and gives your offspring the best chance at life. No matter how technologically advanced we become, ties to the home and to the family will never be undone.

Oh the idiocy. It's times like this when I despair for the future of the human race.

You may have a degree in physics, but you know nothing of genetics.

Go home, troll.

DogmaticLefty

iUseVi wrote: »

You may have a degree in physics, but you know nothing of genetics.

I conceed.

iUseVi

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

I conceed.

Good. Although I think you mean "concede".

Goduznt Xzst

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Are you denying that the majority of people in the world marry inside their own culture? It's obvious. Can you please apply your logic and reason to this for me?

What does Culture have to do with Race? You seem to be blurring the line between the two when they are distinct.

People tend to marry those who are within their geographical proximity. In fact I remember reading studies that showed that the average individual will marry, work and live within ~5 miles of where they grew up.

DogmaticLefty

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

What does Culture have to do with Race? You seem to be blurring the line between the two when they are distinct.

Depends how you define "distinct". It's true that they're distinct words.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

People tend to marry those who are within their geographical proximity. In fact I remember reading studies that showed that the average individual will marry, work and live within ~5 miles of where they grew up.

People tend to marry within their own social class too (women being more socially mobile than men). There are many factors that come into play when choosing a mate (including religion, which is the topic of discussion here).

Goduznt Xzst

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Depends how you define "distinct". It's true that they're distinct words.

They are also distinct in nature. A negroid raised by Irish parents is as culturally Irish as a caucasoid is.

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

There are many factors that come into play when choosing a mate

Correct. Race is only one of the plethora of factors, and doesn't hold any significant weight in relation to them.

DogmaticLefty

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Race is only one of the plethora of factors, and doesn't hold any significant weight in relation to them.

Next you're going to show me some evidence to prove this.

Goduznt Xzst

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Next you're going to show me some evidence to prove this.

I will give you evidence in equal measure to that which you have given us;

I had a relationship with a girl once, she was of a different race, I liked her... quod erat demonstrandum.

DogmaticLefty

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I will give you evidence in equal measure to that which you have given us;

You're the one going around making claims. You don't have to provide evidence if you don't want to.

"Race is only one of the plethora of factors, and doesn't hold any significant weight in relation to [choosing a mate]".

Goduznt Xzst

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

You're the one going around making claims.

Logically it doesn't hold any additional weight. I'm sure to racists though it is a huge factor in their choice of mate.

DogmaticLefty

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Logically it doesn't hold any additional weight. I'm sure to racists though it is a huge factor in their choice of mate.

You'll have to present your logic. Yet again, I challenge you to back up your claim that I quoted in the previous post. Also you haven't specified what you mean when you say culture and race are "distinct".

monosharp

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Actually, I had a Chinese girlfriend at one stage - great girl (she used to cook for me all the time!), but she was tiny and I don't think her hips could facilitate a child given my 6ft 6" DNA. Needless to say, she's back in China now - imagine if I was married to her and she decided to simply "go back to China"? Also, her father was very senior in the Communist Party and was a staunch atheist (State-sanctioned atheism), so she's not exactly the kind of girl you'd introduce to your granny now, is she?

I don't know you but I don't like you and I find this post disturbing.

I'll try make my points nice and brief.

her hips could facilitate a child given my 6ft 6" DNA

You don't understand genetics.

if I was married to her and she decided to simply "go back to China"?

Whats wrong with China ? Why would she decide to go back to China ? What if you married a girl from Derry, why wouldn't she decide to go back to Derry ? Whats wrong with her going to China/Derry ? Are you worried that your partner will have an opinion on where you both will live ?

Also, her father was very senior in the Communist Party and was a staunch atheist (State-sanctioned atheism), so she's not exactly the kind of girl you'd introduce to your granny now, is she?

What possible reason does her father been a member of the Communist party have to do with introducing her to your granny ?

WeeBushy

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

You'll have to present your logic. Yet again, I challenge you to back up your claim that I quoted in the previous post.

Hows about we challenge you to provide evidence for your outrageous claims in this post:

I don't know what you're trying to suggest there. Practically, I don't want to marry someone from China or from India or from Eastern Europe or from whereever. I don't fancy the long haul flights nor do I fancy the inevitable family conflicts arising from being in a relationship with someone from a different culture (not to mention the language). Some people have this Utopian vision of a super-advanced human form that takes on DNA from every corner of the globe. In fact I know several people who are in miscegenistic relationships (some, quite serious) and from what I've seen, it doesn't work. Actually, I had a Chinese girlfriend at one stage - great girl (she used to cook for me all the time!), but she was tiny and I don't think her hips could facilitate a child given my 6ft 6" DNA. Needless to say, she's back in China now - imagine if I was married to her and she decided to simply "go back to China"? Also, her father was very senior in the Communist Party and was a staunch atheist (State-sanctioned atheism), so she's not exactly the kind of girl you'd introduce to your granny now, is she? The fact is that the majority of people marry within their own cultures because it is the optimal strategy and gives your offspring the best chance at life. No matter how technologically advanced we become, ties to the home and to the family will never be undone.

If you're going to demand evidence from an individual, only seems fair that you provide some yourself.

DogmaticLefty

WeeBushy wrote: »

Hows about we challenge you to provide evidence for your outrageous claims in this post:

What do you find so outrageous?

Do you think this is outrageous? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64399266&postcount=22

I don't. It's hardly surprising that an atheist will want to exclude theists when choosing a mate.

DogmaticLefty

monosharp wrote: »

Whats wrong with her going to China/Derry ?

Interesting that you chose Derry as an example Epic. Fail.

monosharp wrote: »

What possible reason does her father been a member of the Communist party have to do with introducing her to your granny ?

I have principles. I wouldn't marry a white supremecist or an anarchist or a member of the communist party, etc. Totally logical position. You understand logic, don't you?

Zombrex

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

I have principles. I wouldn't marry a white supremecist or an anarchist or a member of the communist party, etc. Totally logical position. You understand logic, don't you?

Great, so don't marry her father :rolleyes:

robindch

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

It's hardly surprising that an atheist will want to exclude theists when choosing a mate.

With a theistic attitude like yours, I'd say it's less a matter of attraction than it is one of self-preservation.

BTW, can anybody find that dating-site study from last year/year before where it showed that not only do atheists tend towards atheists preferentially, but that theists do too? With fundies being avoided by almost everybody, even other fundies.

Tim Robbins

Grawns wrote: »

My husband is american baptist, but not the bible bashing sort. He doesn't attend church or believe in creationism ( unlike his creepy sister). He was raised in UK and most of his friends would be typical protestants, church once a year types. I am fairly comfortable with his faith although we have had some rows where I have slagged off god in general. I forget that he's not an atheist sometimes cause he's a great guy.

Anyways we had a unitarian wedding, (they're pretty cool) and now we have a lovely daughter who was 1 yesterday. I always said and I still agree that I will let him be in charge and back him up on religous instruction. God exists etc! She can make her own mind up when she's old enough, just like I did ( ex- catholic) . Needless to say there will be no baptisms or anything like that

Has anyone else been down this road? I expect pitfalls cause I will be being deceitful to my daughter.

Thanks Guys

Very similar road. I'm atheist and my wife is a church goer. We also got married in the Unitarian Church. We agreed not to get our kids baptised and to let them make their own mind up.

She can bring him to church but there's an element of practicalities to this as I am involved in sport at the weekends.

Like your hubbie my other half isn't a bible basher, doesn't quote scripture and pretty much admits the hole thing is irrational, based on cultural traditions and the limbic part of the brain.

We had number one just born and so far it's just been amazing. When he's older my plan is to be as honest as possible with him. So just explain it's a religion and you don't have to have a religion if you don't want to.

I'd like him to have some sort of understanding of religion so that he is able to argue with PDN and Fanny's of this world when he is older and not be bamboozled by their sophistry and C.S. Lewis arguments.

Turtwig

robindch wrote: »

With a theistic attitude like yours, I'd say it's less a matter of attraction than it is one of self-preservation.

BTW, can anybody find that dating-site study from last year/year before where it showed that not only do atheists tend towards atheists preferentially, but that theists do too? With fundies being avoided by almost everybody, even other fundies.

I've probably done this a million times already but once more can't
hurt .:o

Dades

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

It's hardly surprising that an atheist will want to exclude theists when choosing a mate.

I would venture that many, if not most of our "mates" here would be some form of believer. Not bible-thumpers, but your common-or-garden catholic.

Tim Robbins

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Are you denying that the majority of people in the world marry inside their own culture? It's obvious. Can you please apply your logic and reason to this for me?

Most couples generally disagree on something. One could be a vegitarian, or believe in private schools, vote differently, how you manage money, how much you drink. It's extremly unlikely you'll agree on everything unless you both come from the same hick ville where no-one thinks for themselves and there isn't much difference between your partner and your cousin. Or one person dominates the other such that the other is afraid to disagree or keep their own identity.

Turtwig

Dating Study.

robindch

Tim Robbins wrote: »

the hole thing is irrational

How true

Tim Robbins wrote: »

just explain it's a religion and you don't have to have a religion if you don't want to.

My plan, insofar as I have one, is simply to explain that religions are just like political parties, armies and trade unions -- outfits that, in general terms, exist for no purpose than to provide a clear internal chain of authority and status, while externally, doing their darndest to eliminate or neutralize other similar outfits.

robindch

Malty_T wrote: »

Dating Study.

Yep, that's it -- thanks. Source data here:

http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/2009/09/14/online-dating-advice-exactly-what-to-say-in-a-first-message/
http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/2009/09/29/how-races-and-religions-match-in-online-dating/