If Collins had lived...

Xluna

What do you think Ireland would be like today? Would we be better of or worse in the long run? What key events do you think would have been changed for better or worse? Do you think Northern Ireland would have been reclaimed and at what price? Would Catholicism have had the monopoly it had on the country?

MagicMarker

Don't know, don't care.

Jesus Wept

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Collins_%28boxer%29 ?

Mike 1972

Xluna wrote: »

What key events do you think would have been changed for better or worse?

Suprisingly little

Sulmac

An ironic thing is that his argument that the Irish Free State was a "stepping stone" to a full Republic - which was rejected by the anti-treaty side and led to the Civil War [not partition, it was relatively minor as everyone at the time felt the Border Commission would remove Tyrone and Fermanagh from NI, making it economically weak and inevitably joining the Free State within a couple of years] - was proven by the one man who fought tooth and nail against it, De Valera in 1937 with "his" Constitution that we use to this day.

Also, I'm sure this thread is more suited to Politics or History...

Lux23

Dev ended up following the same route that Collins planned to take so I don't think things would be all that different.

ejmaztec

A donkey running the country would have done a better job than De Valera. He was living 100 years in the past even then, whereas Collins was at least up to date with what was going on in the world.

People seem to be making excuses for De Valera these days, but it will take a long time, if not an eternity, for me to accept any of them.

irishdub14

The 'rebels' in munster would have been crushed.....! :P

Xluna

Lux23 wrote: »

Dev ended up following the same route that Collins planned to take so I don't think things would be all that different.

He was a lot less insular and religious than Dev though. It would be interesting to see how he handled the economy and society in general. I think it would have been considerably less conservative in pretty much every aspect.

OutlawPete

Xluna wrote: »

Would we be better of or worse in the long run?

Always good to see people reach 120 so I'll go 'Better'.

Xluna

OutlawPete wrote: »

Always good to see people reach 110 so I'll go 'Better'.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

How would Collins have stopped us from becoming a cantion run by a corrupt organisation that was heavily enflueniced by outside and corporate cultures...?

OutlawPete

Xluna wrote: »

Sorry, 120 .. a fellow Boardsie knocked around last night with some 16 month old JD and don't feel the Mae West.

caseyann

Shame he died:( i believe he would have shaped the face of politics and the dail. He was a man of the people.

Xluna

OutlawPete wrote: »

Sorry, 120 .. a fellow Boardsie knocked around last night with some 16 month old JD and don't feel the Mae West.

Nope,still don't have a clue what you're on about.

Mike 1972

Sulmac wrote: »

An ironic thing is that his argument that the Irish Free State was a "stepping stone" ....was proven by the one man who fought tooth and nail against it, De Valera in 1937 ......

A lot of people would also take the view that for all his anti-"partition" rhetoric De Valera was actually suprisingly comfortable with it and that many of his actions (confirming Unionist fears regarding "Rome Rule", Breaking the last remaining constitutional ties with Britain, presiding over economic stagnation) effectively copperfastened it.

On the other hand Ireland under Collins was hardly a liberal progressive utopia either. One of the first acts of the newly established state was to pass legislation regarding film censorship. This at a time when Ireland was a war-torn state on the brink of economic collapse.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

caseyann wrote: »

Shame he died:( i believe he would have shaped the face of politics and the dail. He was a man of the people.

So, alegedyl, was Bertie.

In the short run, yes, but in the long run I think things would have turned out much the same because of the influence of foreign cultures and values is stronger than our own.

OutlawPete

Xluna wrote: »

Nope,still don't have a clue what you're on about.

Thread title is "If Collins Had Lived.."

Well, if he had - he'd be 120.

Thanks whoring FAIL.

Nothing to see here, move along now folks.

Xluna

OutlawPete wrote: »

Thread title is "If Collins Had Lived.."

Well, if he had - he'd be 120.

Thanks whoring FAIL.

Nothing to see here, move along now folks.

Pot calling kettle black?:pac:

OutlawPete

Xluna wrote: »

Pot calling kettle black?:pac:

Sure I was calling my post the FAIL, not yours. So thats, Kettle calling the Kettle

caseyann

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

So, alegedyl, was Bertie.

In the short run, yes, but in the long run I think things would have turned out much the same because of the influence of foreign cultures and values is stronger than our own.

Not even in close proximity with Collins.Bertie would be a donkey in thoroughbred race.

bonerm

If Collins was around today I'd imagine he'd be managing a football team in South East England now and acting like a pigheaded gobshyte.

hooradiation

OutlawPete wrote: »

Thread title is "If Collins Had Lived.."

Well, if he had - he'd be 120.

Thanks whoring FAIL.

Nothing to see here, move along now folks.

It's ok, i saw what you did there.

justaday

pearse envisioned an ireland of 50 million people. i just wish the british has shot that dev chancer. de valera was a traitor and destroyed ireland.

i firmly belive tho ireland is and always was destined to be a failed state, if we were the other side of the brits things would have been so much better but lets face it they PWN us in every way.

Mike 1972

justaday wrote: »

pearse envisioned an ireland of 50 million people.

:eek: :rolleyes:

caseyann

justaday wrote: »

pearse envisioned an ireland of 50 million people. i just wish the british has shot that dev chancer. de valera was a traitor and destroyed ireland.

i firmly belive tho ireland is and always was destined to be a failed state, if we were the other side of the brits things would have been so much better but lets face it they PWN us in every way.

Only thing England has had is a structured government for longer so any wonder why they would be ahead.
They are in same boat as us and have been in worse than us.I would say if any pwn going on would be us on them;)

If Irish stopped looking over seas at other countries and accepted we arent them and is different like they see us and every other country we wouldnt be trying to be something we are not.

ejmaztec

Mike 1972 wrote: »

:eek: :rolleyes:

It would have worked had they built a 50 foot high electric fence around the island to keep everyone in.

justaday

if ireland had the same population density as belgium/holland/england then our population would be over 40 million. netherlands is smaller than leinster but has 16 million population

mikom

Xluna wrote: »

If Collins had lived...
What do you think Ireland would be like today?

Full to the tits with zombies, I reckon.

Mike 1972

mikom wrote: »

Full to the tits with zombies, I reckon.

No change then :pac:

kev9100

If Collins had lived, the CNG Government would have been a lot less conservative and would not have sucked up as much as they did Catholic Church.

However, the real question is if Collins had lived, would Dev have won the election in 1932? Personally, I don't think he would have. Cosgrave, although a decent taoiseach and man, was a terrible campaigner who allowed himself to be destroyed by the FF machine without putting up a fight. If Collins had lived, he would'nt have let that happen.

MJ23

its nearly 90 years ago now, get on with it. Stop living in the past. Who cares anyway ?

kev9100

If one can't understand the past, one will never understand the future.:D

Xluna

MJ23 wrote: »

its nearly 90 years ago now, get on with it. Stop living in the past. Who cares anyway ?

Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. Anyway it's interesting harmless speculation. If you don't enjoy it there's plenty of other threads for you to post on.

ejmaztec

Xluna wrote: »

Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. Anyway it's interesting harmless speculation. If you don't enjoy it there's plenty of other threads for you to post on.

Yes, it's always interesting to work out how a good idea got screwed up.

Not as bad as the Russians though. They have a successful revolution to set things right, everything's heading in the right direction for a short time, then Stalin ends up running everything.:eek:

HalloweenJack

Forget Collins, Connolly would have been the real great thinker to have.

A genuine socialist, the country would have got off on a better footing.

Xluna

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Forget Collins, Connolly would have been the real great thinker to have.

A genuine socialist, the country would have got off on a better footing.

Collins had a lot of respect for Connoly,he said he would have followed him to death as his leader. He had little respect for Pearce though, he considered Pearce to be a deluded dreamer, obsessed with a glorious death.

kev9100

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Forget Collins, Connolly would have been the real great thinker to have.

A genuine socialist, the country would have got off on a better footing.

That's an intresting point actually. Why did'nt Connolly become a symbol for Socialism in Ireland? After his death, most people applauded him because he signed the proclamation, not because he was a socialist and fighted for the working-class.

ejmaztec

kev9100 wrote: »

That's an intresting point actually. Why did'nt Connolly become a symbol for Socialism in Ireland? After his death, most people applauded him because he signed the proclamation, not because he was a socialist and fighted for the working-class.

I expect the RC church kept the idea of socialism firmly swept under the carpet - too much competition.

sdanseo

MagicMarker wrote: »

Don't know, don't care.

So don't bloody post then!

Lone Stone

I think more robots and less ..... stuff

darkman2

In a way it's probrably lucky he did not live as he had a State sponsered war against the 6 counties, in retalliation for what was going on there to Catholics, about to begin. The British knew this aswell. But due to the civil war circumstance thought it better they back Collins against Dev.

El Siglo

Collins is dead, if he was alive he wouldn't have recognised the place. Same goes for DeValera and all of the other old conservative sectarian gools in Glasnevin. Personally, if the actual revolutionaries who tried to found the Irish Republic were still alive, Pearse et al. I think they'd be pretty disgusted with everything. The fact that the only thing that has changed has been the flag and passports, that we're more or less getting fucked over by the same kinds of cunts today as we were in their time.
I'm reminded by the Connolly's famous quote:
“If you remove the English Army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organization of the Socialist Republic your efforts will be in vain. England will still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs”.
Evocative as it might sound and no doubt we'll here the revisionists come in and disregard this as the notions of a romantic socialist terrorist, but Connolly said this over 90 years ago and it still has some resonance today. We only broke economic union with Britain in 1979 and even then we ended up joining the EMU, we're still ruled by bankers, just look at NAMA and the banks guarantee.

kumate_champ07

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

How would Collins have stopped us from becoming a cantion run by a corrupt organisation that was heavily enflueniced by outside and corporate cultures...?

bullet to the head of anyone corrupt, bang and the dirt is gone

kumate_champ07

I wonder if he'd be a Man Utd supporter or Liverpool supporter, what do you think?

El Siglo

Isn't it funny though that we used to have well educated, committed revolutionaries in this country, Tone, Emmett, O'Donovan-Rossa, Pearse, Connolly etc... what have we got instead: Cowen can't even read the right cue card and Coughlan doesn't know what theory Einstein came up with. It's a joke.

aDeener

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I wonder if he'd be a Man Utd supporter or Liverpool supporter, what do you think?

he'd be a cork supporter

Xluna

El Siglo wrote: »

Isn't it funny though that we used to have well educated, committed revolutionaries in this country, Tone, Emmett, O'Donovan-Rossa, Pearse, Connolly etc... what have we got instead: Cowen can't even read the right cue card and Coughlan doesn't know what theory Einstein came up with. It's a joke.

Don't forget our morbidly obese minister for health and her wonderful two tier health system.

enniscorthy

kev9100 wrote: »

If one can't understand the past, one will never understand the future.:D

DEFO

enniscorthy

El Siglo wrote: »

Isn't it funny though that we used to have well educated, committed revolutionaries in this country, Tone, Emmett, O'Donovan-Rossa, Pearse, Connolly etc... what have we got instead: Cowen can't even read the right cue card and Coughlan doesn't know what theory Einstein came up with. It's a joke.

my dearest fellow you are wonderful DONT EVEN TRY AND GET ME STARTED ON MICHAEL MARTIN

Crann na Beatha

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