Irish born merchant seamen prisoners of Gestapo ww2

BullyBeef

Some 2005 Research about captured Irish born internees.

http://www.irishseamensrelativesassociation.org/MN POW.htm

Morlar

Crikey that site is practically unreadable!

marcsignal

Morlar wrote: »

Crikey that site is practically unreadable!

good find OP, but wow! yes it's a bit hard on the eyes alright

I'm half considering copying the text into a word doc to get a proper read of it.

.

BlackEdelweiss

Thats some bad web design all right, even the domain name is hard to read! I couldent even be bothered to try to read it.

jimmmy

BullyBeef wrote: »

Some 2005 Research about captured Irish born internees.

http://www.irishseamensrelativesassociation.org/MN POW.htm

The site is readable all right.

It seems the Irish prisoners were treated as virtually slave labour by the Germans, were mistreated, malnourished, beaten etc. Shocking reading. And to think that some people doubt that the Germans would not have used people from these islands as slave labour had they won the war.

marcsignal

<Edit by MOD: Text from said web page snipped. See later in thread!>

My Grandfather served as a Merchant Sailor in WW1 & WW2 (though less so in WW2)
Below is an extract from his discharge book * Thanks Dyflin .
The ship listed at the bottom is the "Franconia", the ship used during the Yalta Conference in 1945.
He was the Bosun of this ship and served on her for many years after the war.

Tabnabs

marcsignal wrote: »

My Grandfather served as a Merchant Sailor in WW1 & WW2 (though less so in WW2)
Below is an extract from his log book.
The ship listed at the bottom is the "Franconia", the ship used during the Yalta Conference in 1945.
He was the Bosun of this ship and served on her for many years after the war.

Many thanks for taking the trouble to edit and paste all that info, it makes for shocking reading.

As a matter of interest, my discharge book (log book is for the ship, discharge book for the individual) is identical to your grandfathers, they have obviously never changed the design in almost 100 hundred years (assuming they started issuing them in the early 1920's?)

marcsignal

Dyflin wrote: »

Many thanks for taking the trouble to edit and paste all that info, it makes for shocking reading.

As a matter of interest, my discharge book (log book is for the ship, discharge book for the individual) is identical to your grandfathers, they have obviously never changed the design in almost 100 hundred years (assuming they started issuing them in the early 1920's?)

thanks Dyflin, I posted his WW1 discharge books here on the WW1 forum if they're of any further interest ?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64955375

The site makes pretty grim reading for sure, and i guess there are many more similar stories we will probably never hear about.

MNPOW

BullyBeef wrote: »

Some 2005 Research about captured Irish born internees.

http://www.irishseamensrelativesassociation.org/MN POW.htm

Nice to see our website being quoted. It would have been better if we had been contacted about the difficulty in reading the page. There is a notice on our website re copying and permission is required to do so. On this thread information from our webpage has been copied extensively, and that my friends is not on. If there is a problem we can adjust the background to enable you to see the text, as has been done now, however it is a discourtesy to say the least to literally lift the text onto this website. Perhaps your moderators might like to comment.

Morlar

Hi & welcome to boards !

In fairness I think the only reason text was copied was that the original text with that background was practically un-readable. I tried the original link and gave up after about 2 minutes to be honest. I just re-checked the link now and it is looking much better !

MNPOW

Morlar wrote: »

Hi & welcome to boards !

In fairness I think the only reason text was copied was that the original text with that background was practically un-readable. I tried the original link and gave up after about 2 minutes to be honest. I just re-checked the link now and it is looking much better !

To be honest fairness is not the issue. There is an email address on our website for individuals if they have a problem. There is also a notice about lifting text and copying. No problem about paragraphs, but to copy the whole page is pliagarisation in our view, and that in fairness in not on. We represent families on a voluntary basis and provide that information through our own endeavours and we don't expect our efforts to be lifted and pasted onto another website, irrespective of your reasons, without our permission. That's the issue. There is no problem about constructive discussion using reasonable quotes, but the whole page? Not on..

Morlar

MNPOW wrote: »

we don't expect our efforts to be lifted and pasted onto another website, irrespective of your reasons, without our permission.

To clarify here I didn't copy anything from your site. Nor did I say it was a good idea for anyone else to do so. I gave you the context for why I think it was done, ie that the site was practically unreadable in it's previous format. I mean that literally. That is all.

I host & run a site that features militaria and predominantly ww2 photographs myself and I've had pictures downloaded from mine and uploaded elsewhere. Also people hotlinking their webpage to images on my own (not a link on a forum mind you but a webpage !) so I know where you are coming from here. Having said that in any internet discussion forum especially one that discusses oftentimes dense historical issues you will find a lot of copying and pasting. In your case it was not malicious and it was not a case of anyone taking credit for your work - they were trying to make that information you created available in a more readable format. That is the point I was making. Not saying it's a good idea - just giving you the context for it.

PS if you want the above quote removed - click the triangular symbol beside the post. This will alert a moderator - if you include your comments in the comment box I am pretty sure they will edit it out for you. I am guessing the reason that has not already been done is that no one has reported the post to a moderator as presenting an issue.

MNPOW

Morlar wrote: »

To clarify here I didn't copy anything from your site. Nor did I say it was a good idea for anyone else to do so. I gave you the context for why I think it was done, ie that the site was practically unreadable in it's previous format. I mean that literally. That is all.

I host & run a site that features militaria and predominantly ww2 photographs myself and I've had pictures downloaded from mine and uploaded elsewhere. Also people hotlinking their webpage to images on my own (not a link on a forum mind you but a webpage !) so I know where you are coming from here. Having said that in any internet discussion forum especially one that discusses oftentimes dense historical issues you will find a lot of copying and pasting. In your case it was not malicious and it was not a case of anyone taking credit for your work - they were trying to make that information you created available in a more readable format. That is the point I was making. Not saying it's a good idea - just giving you the context for it.

PS if you want the above quote removed - click the triangular symbol beside the post. This will alert a moderator - if you include your comments in the comment box I am pretty sure they will edit it out for you. I am guessing the reason that has not already been done is that no one has reported the post to a moderator as presenting an issue.

I never said you copied anything. read it again. What I did say was irrespective of your reasons whether our site was readable or not has nothing whatsoever to do with what is at issue and Credit has nothing to do with it either. You are making excuses and justifying this discourtesy on the basis that indiviuduals may not have been able to read the text. That's not for you to decide irrespective of context. As I understand there are strict rules when making contributions to this site re extracting the work of others. In my view this website has breached that rule and the legal position is, that is a breach of copyright law. It is not up to me to delete or remove quotes that is the responsibility of boards .ie its contributors and the hosting service to regulate.

Morlar

MNPOW wrote: »

It is not up to me to delete or remove quotes that is the responsibility of boards .ie its contributors and the hosting service to regulate.

No one said it was up to you to delete or remove quotes. It is up to you as a copyright holder to contact the moderators/administrators of the site to request it be removed however. They do not read every single thread or post on the site and if something is not reported to them then it will pretty much be guaranteed to remain in place. I would have reported it for you but for your tone in posting here. That was why I pointed you to the red triagular icon which is used for reporting a post you think breaches the rules. Also as I have said I am not making excuses - I was giving you the context to it as I know the person who quoted your article. That person is one of those with a family connection to the merchant navy and it was done for a specific reason which you seemed to have been ignorant of.

MNPOW

Morlar wrote: »

No one said it was up to you to delete or remove quotes. It is up to you as a copyright holder to contact the moderators/administrators of the site to request it be removed however. They do not read every single thread or post on the site and if something is not reported to them then it will pretty much be guaranteed to remain in place. I would have reported it for you but for your tone in posting here. That was why I pointed you to the red triagular icon which is used for reporting a post you think breaches the rules. Also as I have said I am not making excuses - I was giving you the context to it as I know the person who quoted your article. That person is one of those with a family connection to the merchant navy and it was done for a specific reason which you seemed to have been ignorant of.

Our copyright was breached without permission and nothing more needs to be said.
http://www.irishseamensrelativesassociation.org/Copyright%20Notice.htm

1. Unless indicated to the contrary (by linking to source or explicitly mentioned), all materials on the websites of the Irish Seamen's Relatives Association (1939-46), Shot at Dawn Campaign Irl and Steam Ship Dresden 1888 including design, text and graphics, are the copyright of Peter Mulvany. Website designs that I have constructed for others are also protected by the law of copyright and such designs can only be used with my express permission.
2. Peter Mulvany is the owner of all associated trade names, trade marks, logos and devices appearing on the websites of the Irish Seamen's Relatives Association (1939-46), Shot at Dawn Campaign Irl and Steam Ship Dresden 1888, unless indicated to the contrary. All other trade marks, logos, names, devices appearing on these websites are the property of their respective owners.
3. All photographs on the websites of the Irish Seamen's Relatives Association (1939-46), Shot at Dawn Campaign Irl and Steam Ship Dresden 1888 are the copyright of Peter Mulvany, except those that I have permission to use from third parties, in which case they are the property of their respective owners.
4. While I make every effort to give credit to sources of photographs, text etc and respect the rights of copyright owners, please note that if one is unaware of a source, then it is the responsibility of the copyright owner to report this to me so that I can credit the owner respectively. On being notified, I will immediately correct any error or omission in accordance with internet best practice.
5. You may not download or print extracts from the websites of the Irish Seamen's Relatives Association (1939-46), Shot at Dawn Campaign Irl and Steam Ship Dresden 1888 or make any other use of material on these websites without my written permission. No right, title or interest in any downloaded materials is transferred to you by such downloading.
6. It is illegal, unacceptable and discourteous to say the least, for others to take content from our websites or use copy photographs, documentation etc that were previously gifted for personal use, and then present such content publicly in a manner which suggests that it is their work or research. The websites of the Irish Seamen's Relatives Association (1939-46), Shot at Dawn Campaign Irl and Steam Ship Dresden 1888 and their associated research projects were inter alia inaugurated specifically for the benefit of all our families, and not for the personal enhancement of other website owners etc, without my consent. Consequently, infringement of ones copyright will attract legal action, and if necessary those engaged in such unsavory practice, will be publicly named and shamed.

Morlar

MNPOW wrote: »

Our copyright was breached without permission and nothing more needs to be said.
http://www.irishseamensrelativesassociation.org/Copyright%20Notice.htm

1. Unless indicated to the contrary (by linking to source or explicitly mentioned), all materials on the websites of the Irish Seamen's Relatives Association (1939-46), Shot at Dawn Campaign Irl and Steam Ship Dresden 1888 including design, text and graphics, are the copyright of Peter Mulvany. Website designs that I have constructed for others are also protected by the law of copyright and such designs can only be used with my express permission.
2. Peter Mulvany is the owner of all associated trade names, trade marks, logos and devices appearing on the websites of the Irish Seamen's Relatives Association (1939-46), Shot at Dawn Campaign Irl and Steam Ship Dresden 1888, unless indicated to the contrary. All other trade marks, logos, names, devices appearing on these websites are the property of their respective owners.
3. All photographs on the websites of the Irish Seamen's Relatives Association (1939-46), Shot at Dawn Campaign Irl and Steam Ship Dresden 1888 are the copyright of Peter Mulvany, except those that I have permission to use from third parties, in which case they are the property of their respective owners.
4. While I make every effort to give credit to sources of photographs, text etc and respect the rights of copyright owners, please note that if one is unaware of a source, then it is the responsibility of the copyright owner to report this to me so that I can credit the owner respectively. On being notified, I will immediately correct any error or omission in accordance with internet best practice.
5. You may not download or print extracts from the websites of the Irish Seamen's Relatives Association (1939-46), Shot at Dawn Campaign Irl and Steam Ship Dresden 1888 or make any other use of material on these websites without my written permission. No right, title or interest in any downloaded materials is transferred to you by such downloading.
6. It is illegal, unacceptable and discourteous to say the least, for others to take content from our websites or use copy photographs, documentation etc that were previously gifted for personal use, and then present such content publicly in a manner which suggests that it is their work or research. The websites of the Irish Seamen's Relatives Association (1939-46), Shot at Dawn Campaign Irl and Steam Ship Dresden 1888 and their associated research projects were inter alia inaugurated specifically for the benefit of all our families, and not for the personal enhancement of other website owners etc, without my consent. Consequently, infringement of ones copyright will attract legal action, and if necessary those engaged in such unsavory practice, will be publicly named and shamed.

Please see the part in the annoying colour.

Fratton Fred

MNPOW, very good, well researched website. I would never have been aware of your site if it wasn't for someone linking to it.

Btw, Plagiarism is the copying of someones work and claiming it for their own, which no one has even remotely attempted to do here. this thread has brought your research to a wider audience, if that is not what you want then I humbly suggest the internet is not the right medium for your work.

MNPOW

One has no problem whatsoever about constructive debate, however the point is the wholesale extraction of a page from our website without even contacting ourselves in the first place is and was nothing less than a discourtesy. Simple. Apparently there seems to be those who believe they have a superior right to lift what they what when it suits. I am saying that is wrong and as far as the internet is concerned is in bad taste. Your freedom does not extend to breaching our right to give our permission to extract any text you wish from our website. As far as the colour of a contributors email. I have no problem with colours, Red White and Blue, Green White and Orange, and I will even wear the Poppy and the Easter Lilly together, no problem with colour or labels. However we will not accept that others can do and lift what they like off our websites without at least contacting us.

Morlar

Seeing as though life is too short I have reported the post you took exception to for you (using the little button with the red triangular icon) - as soon as a moderator gets back from their little tea and biscuit break I am sure they will remove the quoted portion. I am also pretty sure that if the person who posted it were online right now they would remove it too.

MNPOW

Those of us living with cancer know only to well how short our lives are. Methinks not the best words to use. Irrespective these contributions have been illuminating.

Morlar

MNPOW wrote: »

Those of us living with cancer know only to well how short our lives are. Methinks not the best words to use. Irrespective these contributions have been illuminating.

Short of having psychic superpowers there is no way in hell to know that now is there ? The choice of words is obviously not related to anything personal here. The post is reported for you - once that extended moderator tea and biscuit (bordering on passport office worker) teabreak is over it will be fixed.

marcsignal

MNPOW wrote: »

One has no problem whatsoever about constructive debate, however the point is the wholesale extraction of a page from our website without even contacting ourselves in the first place is and was nothing less than a discourtesy.

Hi MNPOW, i just want to say that I took it upon myself to copy over the text, and that it had nothing to do with boards.ie.

I'd like to apologise, and clarify that the reason I did this was because the original text was too difficult to read. The subject had particular interest for me because my own grandfather was a Merchant Seaman.

It was never my intention to plagerise anything on your website, or claim it as my own work/research.

I'd like to mention that on occasion text from other WW2 documents is occasionally copied, or re-typed by posters purely to facilitate others ability to read text that is obscued through old age or damage. Although in this particular case I acknowledge that does not apply, I was simply trying to make it easier for posters to read.

If there is a problem I will edit the post and remove the copied text.

Apologies.

marc

MNPOW

No problem Marc and thank you for having the decency to say so. We have no problem with using the text as quotes in a debate, however it was the whole page being copied that presented a problem. Re a previous comment about not having pscyche powers, Perhaps when the other contributor states his views he would be better in picking his words more carefully. Although somehow I don't think that will happen.

ejmaztec

Anyway, had it not been for my very late father, who was a secret weapon i.e., a Maritime Royal Artillery gunner, a lot more merchant seaman would have ended up dead, or in the camps.

MNPOW

Well said, however if it had not been for the sacrifice of merchant semen the UK and allies would not have survived and neither would have Ireland. Indeed many British andr allied merchant ships under contract to the Irish Government during the emergency would seem to have been forgotten in the mix of remembrance, I am sure they too are worthy of special mention...and god bless them everyone. A dheis de go raibh an anaim dilis, they shall grow not old...................

Manic Moran

OK, a couple of things.

1) Molar is entirely correct in the method to be used. There's a 'report post' button. I am responding to this thread because I was notified by a user. I only have so many hours in the day, and if a seemingly innocuous thread doesn't interest me by way of subject matter, I'm not going to monitor it.

2) Take a chill pill. There was obviously no intent to defraud, cheat, plagiarise or any other such malicious background to the act. Hostility does nothing to help your case, and people (like moderators) tend to react poorly to it.

3) On the subject matter at hand, if this was a US-hosted site, I'd be very confident that the 'Fair Use' exemption to copyright will apply. A not-for-profit exerpt for academic or knowledge gain which expressly acknowledges that the publicly-available information being quoted is not his work and acknowledges the source. Not being so familiar with Irish law, I need to go find out if there is such a similar exemption. Since the alleged transgressor has stated that he shall remove the offending text, I see no reason to actually act on anything, but in the interests of knowing exactly where we stand in case this happens again to either of us, I'm going to go try to find out. I'll let you know. Out of interest, if you take your website down, but it still shows up as a cached page on Google, are you going to go complain to Google about it?

NTM

MNPOW

You should reread the conditions for access to board.ie. Get your facts straight before offering up any comments. Irish law takes precedent. Google or any other website etc has absolutely nothing to do with what is at issue. Do you as a contributor have the right to take material from one website and copy same and put into another website ?. As I understand from the rules that govern membership of this board you cannot, and if its members and those that run this site cannot regulate its content then the rules are a farce. Unfortunatly I cannot hide behind a pseudoym.

marcsignal

MNPOW wrote: »

No problem Marc and thank you for having the decency to say so. We have no problem with using the text as quotes in a debate, however it was the whole page being copied that presented a problem.

Thanks MNPOW, duly noted, and once again, apologies.

I have since tried to remove the text as promised, and add a note explaining that design changes to the original site, now make the text easier to read. However because the post was made over a week ago, I am now unable to edit it. I am unsure what I can do about this, other than leave it in the hands of the moderators who may decide delete the text in question, or take other appropriate action to your satisfaction.

.

Manic Moran

You should reread the conditions for access to board.ie. Get your facts straight before offering up any comments. Irish law takes precedent.

I refer you to: "On the subject matter at hand, if this was a US-hosted site..." and " Not being so familiar with Irish law, I need to go find out if there is such a similar exemption."

I'm an American. Before acting on claimed foreign legal principles, I need to find out just what they are. I'm sure you can understand that.

On a personal note, I don't care how annoyed you are, I recommend an attitude re-adjustment. I said I would ask around from people more qualified to answer this question, and I did. It seems that there is no such exemption in Irish law, at least which would cover this, so to that extent, you are well within your rights to claim a copyright violation. So on behalf of Boards.ie, insofar as I can actually make such a statement as a mere moderator with no legal connection to the organisation whatsoever, I apologise for the copy/paste of your article which was, as best I can tell, entirely malice-free.

You are not, however, within your rights to be antagonistic on Boards as a registered user. A simple, polite pointer to the correct channels (i.e. the moderators) will have sufficed quite nicely, thank you. You will have found that your issue will have been redressed with little/no fuss had you actually followed the process recommended to you by Morlar.

However because the post was made over a week ago, I am now unable to edit it. I am unsure what I can do about this, other than leave it in the hands of the moderators who may decide delete the text in question, or take other appropriate action to your satisfaction.

I'll take care of it.

NTM

MNPOW

No problem with Americans however American Law on copyright is not a precedent here and neither is the defence of fair dealing insofarc aas the copying of the article was consideraby more than required. Copying paragraphs/ extracts for an article or debate is fair and can be argued along those lines, what is not arguable is the wholesale copying of a full webpage ostensibly because the viewers cannot see the text. All that was required was a notification to me and no problem. A simple and expedient way of dealing with the issue. Indeed when I became aware that there was an issue about viewing the text the background was immediately changed.
The wholesale copying of text from one webpage to another without the permission of the copyright holder is a breach of Irish Law, and I am not in America as you well know. That said, to reduce ones concerns into an absurdity and with the obvious contempt for those concerns is not only a discourtesy but is the height of arrogance.
As Marc has already had the decency to apoligise, that is sufficient and I am going to end this here, irrespective as to what further comments/ cirtical or otherwise may be added to this thread, wee will not be involved here again. Take care America and perhaps if there is a next time with some other unlucky contributor who feels aggrieved about their eforts been copied and pasted over your webpages you might consider taking a step back and think before making gratitutious comments.... Slan Leat

Lab_Mouse

MNPOW you might be better off polishing up your HTML skills and make the site readable as it is it would give anyone a headache reading the thing and then nobody would have to copy/paste just to make it readable

ejmaztec

Lab_Mouse wrote: »

MNPOW you might be better off polishing up your HTML skills and make the site readable as it is it would give anyone a headache reading the thing and then nobody would have to copy/paste just to make it readable

It's already been sorted hasn't it? :eek:


We don't need a WW3 forum, just yet.

Lab_Mouse

Sorry All hadnt clicked on to it since my first headache:(

marcsignal

ejmaztec wrote: »

We don't need a WW3 forum, just yet.

LOL !!